Okay Zeppelin,
My mom used to be a Nun. ( Roman Catholic) She grew tired of it and left, traveled to Europe met my Dad and got married. I never had to go to church more than a couple times a year as a kid. I just thought they lied to me about Santa, The toothfairy and the Easter Bunny. How is God any different. The bible seemed big fairy tale. Let’s be honest they had terrible writers. If I don’t see or feel it I won’t beleive it.
Ross
Phatman,
I read your link and I msut confess I’m rather unimpressed by it. No doubt there must have been mistakes/forgeries in the fossil discoveries but there’s enough credible fossil data to consider evolution of mankind a proven fact. We (as in you and I) might not know exactly how much of a role chance played in it, or the exact mechanisms behind it but science has pretty much uncovered most.
A question for you, do you believe the hearth is 6000 years old?
Actually that site I posted does a very good job in exposing the evolutionary and common descent theory. I?m reading recommend anyone interested in it to do that also.
See Jared, something productive as come out of this bound-not-to-change-anyone’s-mind discussion, at least for me. Looking at pictures of Karma’s ass is surely more pleasant and entertaining but there’s hardly any issues that don’t deserve a go in a off topic forum.
Speakin of which, where have all the Iraq threads gone to? Let’s see…
Goldberg “The ignorance of some people is amazing.”
How very true. There has yet to be ANY scientific evidence to prove where the human race came from, let alone the universe (many theory’s, but still no hard evidence or we wouldn’t even be having this debate).
When someone choose’s to believe something, whether in everyday life or in religion they must base their faith in something or someone as it to be true. When I chose to believe what I believe I immediately began to research the truthfulness of the Bible (as this is the base for the Christion faith). I searched in more than one place and more than one author or researcher and came to the conclusion that, I KNOW the Bible is 100 % true and accurate, therefore I trust in how we were to be here and were we are going.
All I guess that I’m saying is that those of you who believe what you believe just because it’s based on public opinion or from what you read in a magazine somewhere. Do the research, find out if what you believe is in fact the truth, and fact.
VIZ: Shoot. Could be interesting. =0)
Just to give you an idea, not to say we are coming gods, but when you are technologically at a point where computers can now deduct and solve problems by their own through by problem an error, like backing up a truck AND finding the mathematical rules / algorithms while doing so, through neural nets, well…secret breaking and discoveries could be solved even quicker through computer assistance of this level. This will, again, give us one more edge in the discovery fields.
And this is the result of the slow-to-start, exponential processing power curve of the 20th century. The next 25 years could be VERY astounding.
"I searched in more than one place and more than one author or researcher and came to the conclusion that, I KNOW the Bible is 100 % true and accurate, therefore I trust in how we were to be here and were we are going. "
Do you mind sharing with us your proof that the bile is 100% accurate and true?
Who says faith and belief are absolutely essential? The assumption is that you absolutely need faith in something at start. I beg to differ.
I do not need to have faith to appreciate progress. Just because I have seen progress (evolution) in no way forces me to speculate / wish / project for the future in any way?
What so wrong with saying: What is, is. Period. What is past is past. What is the (long-term) future? No one knows. Not even now. And will you live that long anyway? And if so, could you change something of cosmic scale? (You get the drill…)
If I do not know why (something is), until science gets the answer, I do not know why. Period. It’s like saying ‘I like blue’ and you say ‘I like red’. What more is there to say? Why complicate things when the need not be?
Science will pretty much advance by itself. Whether I have faith in it or not is irrelevant.
I just find that current explanations handle the road far better in my everyday view of the world (makes more sense) than the rest. I work within current data sets available.
Reality evolves independently of whatever belief system I have of it. However, to the extent that my beliefs are accurate/precise, they will affect how my living goes on. If I go against the Laws of Reality, Reality will win everytime. If I adapt to the Laws of Reality, I have an educated chance (no guarantee) of winning. What is the difference (success/failure, sane/insane, etc…)? Most of the time, accuracy of beliefs.
Faith has nothing to do with it. Unless your live your life as a preacher. Then it comes very important to your survival (cash flow).
Oh well, just my opinion ;0)
Another reason to believe in God.
Objective moral values.
Let me state here that I’m not saying one can’t live a moral life without believing in God.
But without absolutes can one say that something is wrong? If so how do you determine the difference?
For instance, rape. I’ve heard plenty of atheists say that it is not socially advantageous and has since become taboo. However that does nothing to prove rape is really wrong.
If their is no God and no absolute right and wrong to impose itself on our conscious how can one honestly determine the difference?
I agree with Nietzche that if God doesn’t exist then objective moral values don’t exist.
But I think that deep down inside everyone knows that objective moral values exist. That actions like rape and child abuse are not just socially unacceptable behavior. But they are moral abominations that are really wrong.
If God doesn’t exist then objective moral values don’t exist.
But objective moral values do exist therefore God exists.
“If God doesn’t exist then objective moral values don’t exist.
But objective moral values do exist therefore God exists.”
I see no logic whatsoever here.
Found something interesting:
from
“2nd Place: “Women Were Designed For Homemaking”
Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences show that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.”
I am speechless, truly speechless. As soon as I regain my hability to speak I’ll post a comment on this and the many, many other pearls of wisdom and creationist science lying around this site.
Restless: It is a premise.
Premise one: Objective moral values don’t exist if God doesn’t exist.
Premise two: Objective moral values do exist.
Premise three: Therefore God exists.
It is a summary of another consideration for the existence of God.
Your story about the 7th grader really doesn’t have anything to do with what I’ve posted. Your trying to impose other peoples beliefs - in an attempt to make my postion look stupid - without answering any of the questions I’ve proposed.
In regards to your earlier posts let me respond.
Who said I believe that the Earth in 6,000 years old? Do you think all theists or Christians read all of the Bible in a literal sense? Is that a pre-requiste?
I provided statements from athestic professors who were doubtful of the therory of evlution. I ahve numerous other examples from astro-phyists and other illuminaries from the science-related fields that express similar doubt.
zepplin -
Objective moral values don’t exist. Subjective moral values do. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with murder, rape, or any other simple action. Would you say that a predator is evil for murdering it’s prey? Or that the many instances of rape, defined as forced sex, in animals besides humans makes them evil or wrong? The actions themself do not carry any alignment. They do what they do, we do what we do. To quote Dan here, “what is, is.”
I am not saying that I don’t think there is anything wrong with murder, rape, etc; rather that my morals and values are based on the social environment in which I was raised. I will just try to be a good person, as I know a good person to be, whether there is a God or not.
“There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so.” Shakespeare
Damn submit button!
However you think the fossil records prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we all came from apes or whatever it is.
Why do you think some athesitic professors have doubts? Did they skip the class that dealt with the fossil records? Do you not think they are aware of the fossil records?
Hey, I have an idea!
Why don’t you get in contact with these professors and set them straight since YOU know that evolution is a fact. I’m sure they would appreciate it. Then we can stop all this bickering once and for all, because they are obviously not convinced.
Man am I the only one on T-mag that believes in God and likes Noam Chompsky?
ZEPPELIN: Small comment. For you three premises, my hunch is that you wanted to say: Conclusion or Deduction when you said Therefore in your third statement.
As for the 7th grade thing, there is a name to that type of processing error. While I do not have the time now, I am quite sure you could find the mechanics at this site (or a simila one):
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index
There`s a good chance debates would be far different, far less numerous or just plain make more sense if people filtered their ideas with these rules before posting. Dream on. ;0)
"Restless: It is a premise.
Premise one: Objective moral values don’t exist if God doesn’t exist.
Premise two: Objective moral values do exist.
Premise three: Therefore God exists.
It is a summary of another consideration for the existence of God.
Your story about the 7th grader really doesn’t have anything to do with what I’ve posted. Your trying to impose other peoples beliefs - in an attempt to make my postion look stupid - without answering any of the questions I’ve proposed. "
I’ve typed a lenghty response to your post that got lost due to the eternal technical dificulties this forum seems to have.
Like Airborn said there are no such thing as absolute universal moral values. There are some common points in most moral codes, like killing is worng but things vary. Primitive people also have moral codes, even if many they lack a judging, almighty God to come from the sky and deliver two plates with the commandments to one of the chosen ones.
"In regards to your earlier posts let me respond.
Who said I believe that the Earth in 6,000 years old? Do you think all theists or Christians read all of the Bible in a literal sense? Is that a pre-requiste? "
Well, I’m not aware of any other creationist lines of thinking so maybe you can instruct me on this.
“I provided statements from athestic professors who were doubtful of the therory of evlution. I ahve numerous other examples from astro-phyists and other illuminaries from the science-related fields that express similar doubt.”
Show them to me. I’d like to see them.
"However you think the fossil records prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we all came from apes or whatever it is. "
See, this is the speech of a man that didn’t bother to study the evidence abnd the theories. Man didn’t came from ape, we simply did have a commmon ancestor. In fact, most likely everything had a common ancestor.
"Why do you think some athesitic professors have doubts? Did they skip the class that dealt with the fossil records? Do you not think they are aware of the fossil records? "
Faith gets in the way of logical and racional thinking.
“Man am I the only one on T-mag that believes in God and likes Noam Chompsky?”
I don’t think so.
Restless,
Yep I was waiting for that question and I have an answer, but then there will come the questions about Dinosaurs and then the questions about flood records. Then I’ll ask you about evolution theroy breaking the 1st and second laws of thermal dynamics and on and on it will go and I am running out of energy just thinking about it…
This is why I speak about my experiences with God the father rather than the same old tired discussions that neither of us can prove. Someone earlier said they hate when Christians do that because, although you may not believe me, It is hard to come up with a counter point to an experience. However you need to experience God to start to fully understand Him and believe in him. It is a Leap of faith. It’s hard for me to explain it to you other than a child beginning to learn to walk, to afraid to let go of the couch and step away from what they think is holding them up.
Hey I was you and Dan in 1997. I even refused to go to church with my own mother on Christmas eve, “You aren’t shoving your Jesus down my throat” my exact words. In April I had an encounter with God, it’s a long story that I don’t mind sharing, but that I will save until asked about. (Don’t want you to think I’m shoving my Jesus down your throat!) Since then I have experienced Gods hand in my life so many times. Things I could tell you about, you would probably dismiss as coincidence, but were answers to specific prayer. I am a completely different person than who I used to be. I am not weak minded, as someone earlier supposed, and I am not controlled by the people of the church I attend. I have simply looked at all the options and, for me, a Creator God makes more sense than a random chaotic explosion that started life, Since as I stated before Order has never comes from chaos and God has demonstrated his existence to me through my relationship with him.
I also wanted to show that there are reasons why I believe what I believe and that my faith is not a blind faith. You may not agree with them but as we have demonstrated neither of us is going to prove or disprove the other. Just because I believe in God doesn?t make me a card carrying right wing, Lunatic.
Thanks for the interesting conversations but I need to refocus myself to the T&N board. I got another 6% bf to lose and I’m turning forty next month so I’m not getting any younger! Hey I also wanted to say I been down this road many times and both you and Dan were great to talk to. Usually it turns quite ugly when the frustration level rises but we were able to keep it pretty sane and I appreciate that! Good luck with your training!
Zeppelin,
Your questions about “why” we are here, as a means of making theism sound plausible are weird because the need for a “reason” only exists in the human mind.
Your argument that it is very unlikely that the universe would support life if it hadn’t been designed carefully to do so isn’t as valid as you think it is.
The chances of getting a royal straight flush in a game of poker are slim, but it isn’t impossible, yet when one is obtained in a time of need I bet it wouldn’t be uncommon to thank God. Same thing, you are looking at the hand that was dealt, not billions of others that could have been.
The “something can’t come from nothing”-argument is so lame that it hardly warrants an answer. Still, where did God come from? Whereever you may wish to say he/she/it came from you’ll just be moving the problem.
/Jacob
Phatman, I can’t argue with that. I can argue with logical rational argumentation but not with faith driven beliefs. So maybe this is point were our discussion will end. It is your choice to ignore science and all the evidence supporting evolution to preserve the way you chose to see the universe and if that makes sense for you, however crazy it sound to me, it’s your right to do so.
"The “something can’t come from nothing”-argument is so lame that it hardly warrants an answer. Still, where did God come from? Whereever you may wish to say he/she/it came from you’ll just be moving the problem. "
It’s a problem that most likely will never get solved. Which doesn’t mean one has to resourt to irracional faith driven explanations to make up for our limited understanding habilities.
Maybe we’'l never know what was there before the universe started, or if the universe actually had a beggining, or if there’s an actual physical limitation to it and if there is what’s beyond this ending or other wonderfull enigmas like this, but so what? Life goes on regardless and it’s no reason to resourt to irracional religious dogma to make up for our limited capacity of understanding the universe. Being an Agnostic saves you a lot of trouble, I tell you.
Alright Bro, but just a point of clarification, Agnostic means “without Knowledge”. An agnostic suggests that there is not enough evidence to base a conclusion on whether God exists or not. “I don’t know, You don’t know and Nobody can know, so stop searching” are the battle cries. The problem with this concept is that it would have to work both directions. Man is unable to detect or reach God, God is unable to reach man. But God is not unable to reach man. An infinite God can make himself known any time he wanted to and there is nothing to prevent him from doing so. Also there is ample evidence that he has done just that. That you choose to ignore this evidence is your own decision. The final decision was/is and will always be with each and every person. If you prefer to stand in front of you?re pure and perfect Creator and be judged on your own works, however crazy I think it is, that’s your business.
Quote-“I can argue with logical rational argumentation but not with faith driven beliefs.”
Doesn’t that about sum it up? Isn’t God’s existence about faith driven belief?