For My Anti-War Friends...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Loth, I still think you are being an idealist. Remember, Afghanistan twelve years, I believe the Soviets fought an insurgency. Remember Vietnam first the French then us. We were there from 62 I believe till 75.[/quote]

Afghanistan vs. Soviets… Yeah, that was also when WE were helping the insurgency, right? I mean, we’re not going to openly admit it, but that’s the truth, isn’t it? hehe

Like I said before, I hope that you’re wrong. Things are different today than they were thirty years ago. The Iraqi citizenry has embraced the beginnings of their own democratic system, and their self-chosen government is getting the job done. I’m glad that we are over there making a difference not only for our own security, but for the benefit of so many people. The Iraqi people have seen the bottom of the ocean, now it’s time for them to rise to the surface and sail onward.

Wow. I’ve got metaphoritis all of a sudden. :slight_smile:

[quote]Remember this line from Vietnam “We had to destroy the village to save it,”?
[/quote]
Yeah… made sense back then I guess. :slight_smile:

102

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Just one last thought… why do the Powerful Words today by Bertrand Russell bring to mind my friend jerffy AKA JeffR? [/quote]

At first, I dismissed this statement as a jab to one of your favorite poliforum pals, but I started to think about it some more while I was juggling blood specimens here tonight.

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” Bertrand Russell

I thought: What happens when the wise stop doubting themselves? Do they become fools by virtue of their newfound confidence, or do they merely let go of what held them back before?

Maybe my good pal Jeffy is just an outspoken, self-confident, wise man. Or at least a wise-cracker. :slight_smile:

103

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Just remember Iraq has become the main battleground in the War on Terror.
Iraq is where most of the foreign fighters are headed to and where most of the terrorist money is being spent.

JeffR

[/quote]

Jeff, the whole ‘foreign fighters’ thing is an overly hyped semi-myth. Out of the last 1000 insurgents captured or killed, only 50 were non-Iraqi nationals. 5%. (Mainly Saudis) I do admit though that a higher percentage of the suicide bombers are non-Iraqis, and probably that the small number of foreign fighters play a large role in organization of the insurgents. But this whole idea that we are drawing all the world’s terrorists into Iraq to go toe-to-toe with the US is largely a fiction.

104

I think, U.S. isn’t democrtic and free. That rich country, that let miions of peoples suffering powerty, can’t be democratic… or free. What a selfic-people’s country!

105

Loth,

To go a back a ways. It is not a weakness to recognize and accept the nature of humanity.

When you compared this to saying you’d never be able to lift 300 lbs, you denied the nature of your abilities.

One of the paths to your utopia lies through education. However, ever here, in the western world, many of us escape from a decent education.

Others, like Jerffy, will follow their chosen demigods anywhere, whether right or wrong. Blind followers are just as dangerous to peace as the uneducated, the poor and the religious zealot.

When you have removed these flaws from humanity, then it will be time to be less cynical. Until then, get to work and make some changes.

It isn’t my cynicism that holds you back, this is your charge after all, it is your lack of belief that you can accomplish this in spite of such cynicism that keeps you from trying.

If I tell you that you will never deadlift 300 lbs, then it is your responsibility to go do it, to prove me wrong. If I was leading the charge for world peace, as you are in this thread, then my comments would not reflect such cynicism at all.

You either believe in this achievable world peace, or you are a cynical hypocrite yourself. Which is it?

106

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
100meters wrote:
Head in the sanders—isn’t that you? In your own post “most of the foreign fighters are headed to…” and “creating terrorism” go togeather don’t they?
Seeing how there was little terrorism there before our pre-planned invasion of Iraq, and now there’s a shitload—so much so they don’t even want to release the terror reports anymore, and a recent report said maybe 25% are from africa and are there to learn terror skills to use against their home governments…gee It kind of seems like we’ve created a terrorist wonderland (not disneyland)! Even the CIA says we’ve created a new afghanistan there! Head in the sand would be lying nitwits like Cheyney saying the insurgency is in its “final throes”—Really, try to believe that he said that, he’ll just lie about anything, and you of course will believe it.

100, are you saying that the insurgency is stronger now than ever or something like that? Because that is what you would have to believe if we “created terrorists” by our just and righteous action in Iraq.

You think that we are in the wrong by the invasion, and that’s okay. But I would like to turn the tables on you for a second here and try to explain to me why we SHOULDN’T have gone in. We had so many, many reasons to intervene in this madman’s plans. He had a laundry list of offenses against humanity. He was dangerous, and corrupted officials at the UN in the OFF program. He didn’t use the money from OFF to feed, clothe, or provide services like medical, electicity, water, and sewage for his people. He let his nation rot while his people starved and drank ditch water so that he could hoard his ill-gotten wealth.

I suppose that you would have wanted the sanctions to continue? The sanctions were the fucking problem! The sanctions did nothing to Saddam personally, they only hurt the people. But this was the high and mighty UN’s idea for controlling Saddam? Starving and giving dysentery to the Iraqi people? What, did the UN think that Saddam would all of a sudden start to give two shits about the people of his country?

Let me tell you something: If psychos from other countries go to Iraq to learn how to terrorize, then we will destroy them, too. I am an American, and we have had enough of this bullshit. If you harbor terrorism, encourage it, or use it, you are slated for destruction. Plain and simple.

[/quote]

Uhmmm… It is stronger than ever before, smarter too. They’re constantly adjusting tactics, strategy, means, and locations, scary stuff that even our commanders over there concede. So yes it’s a mess of our own creation, not to mention the piss poor civilian post-invasion planning by BUSH CO. that has only helped to create this mess.

As for oil-for-food–surely you know by now that happened under our watch with our leaders turning a blind eye, same with the smuggling, with big oil americans reaping in some mad cash. And of course the same people are still suffering, malnutrition up, sickness up, death up, utilities down, safety down, etc…all so they can elect a government that most likely will resemble our other buddy, Iran—If they don’t have a civil war before that----was it worth it for bases? I dunno.

As for the terrorists, obviously we’re not killing them all—terrorism way up around the world, Iraq is merely a massive training ground where potential terrorist can get valued skills like bombmaking and learn guerilla tactics against a modern army that they can then take home with them—as they are doing.

107

[quote]temppa wrote:
I think, U.S. isn’t democrtic and free. That rich country, that let miions of peoples suffering powerty, can’t be democratic… or free. What a selfic-people’s country![/quote]

Hey Temppa:

Join France, then go jerk-off to yourself. You’ll fit in nicely. Then call US when you get raided and need help… Then we will see who is free.

Keep your US bashing to yourself. We are Capitalists, and in this structure those who work hard are blessed. Some more than others. Any if you are a lazy ass, collect welfare from my taxes.

108

[quote]temppa wrote:
I think, U.S. isn’t democrtic and free. That rich country, that let miions of peoples suffering powerty, can’t be democratic… or free. What a selfic-people’s country!
[/quote]
See what democracy means to people out side of the U.S.? Yet all we care about is that these people can vote and have american made uniforms with a virtual “God bless the US” logo emphatically stitched into it. Judgement is upon us…be ready for the backlash.

But then again, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us–which is how we got here to begin with.

109

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Just remember Iraq has become the main battleground in the War on Terror.
Iraq is where most of the foreign fighters are headed to and where most of the terrorist money is being spent.

JeffR

Jeff, the whole ‘foreign fighters’ thing is an overly hyped semi-myth. Out of the last 1000 insurgents captured or killed, only 50 were non-Iraqi nationals. 5%. (Mainly Saudis) I do admit though that a higher percentage of the suicide bombers are non-Iraqis, and probably that the small number of foreign fighters play a large role in organization of the insurgents. But this whole idea that we are drawing all the world’s terrorists into Iraq to go toe-to-toe with the US is largely a fiction.

[/quote]

As you have noted many of the foreign born terrorists are part of the terrorists command structure.

We are better off fighting them in Iraq than having them plan bombings in NYC.

It is always better to fight a war on foreign soil than on American soil.

The Iraqi people are the ones getting the shaft in this war. It really sucks for them, but it does not make it a bad strategy.

History will judge if it was a good strategy or not. It is too soon to tell.

We are in it. We must win it.

110

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
temppa wrote:
I think, U.S. isn’t democrtic and free. That rich country, that let miions of peoples suffering powerty, can’t be democratic… or free. What a selfic-people’s country!

See what democracy means to people out side of the U.S.? Yet all we care about is that these people can vote and have american made uniforms with a virtual “God bless the US” logo emphatically stitched into it. Judgement is upon us…be ready for the backlash.

But then again, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us–which is how we got here to begin with.[/quote]

Are you comparing this Finnish guy’s view to the US empowering the Iraqi citizens ability to vote? You are saying the world does not care? You are dead wrong. We do make a difference and we are performing our responsibility as world leaders.

Most people more than admire us and then hate us for it. It’s an old thing called jealousy and human nature.

You seem very cynical and are really doing no good for any of us or our kids abroad who need our support. You a Byrd follower, a hollywood movie star? Modanna fan?

111

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Are you comparing this Finnish guy’s view to the US empowering the Iraqi citizens ability to vote? You are saying the world does not care? You are dead wrong. We do make a difference and we are performing our responsibility as world leaders.

Most people more than admire us and then hate us for it. It’s an old thing called jealousy and human nature.

You seem very cynical and are really doing no good for any of us or our kids abroad who need our support. You a Byrd follower, a hollywood movie star? Modanna fan?
[/quote]

I don’t think there are too many countries out of the third world that are jealous of the US. I wouldn’t be jealous of an economic superpower that can’t even give it’s citzens health care. As a matter of fact I think we are the only “first world” super power that doesn’t. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that goes to war against dictatorial regimes but supports Saudia Arabia. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that couldn’t care less about AIDS, starvation, genocide, etc. in Africa. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that ships more bibles per capita than it does money per capita to people of other countries in need.

I would like to know who the “most people” you speak of are that “more than admire us”. I work in a field that is heavily laden with non-americans and it doesn’t seem that way from where I sit.

Do not confuse honest questioning with cynicism. I have friends and family there myself, though I don’t support the effort–it is all for naught but for America to be able to say, “We are the world super power, you cannot exist without us.” Our actions to the rest of the world are in conflict with what America is supposed to stand for.

112

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Are you comparing this Finnish guy’s view to the US empowering the Iraqi citizens ability to vote? You are saying the world does not care? You are dead wrong. We do make a difference and we are performing our responsibility as world leaders.

Most people more than admire us and then hate us for it. It’s an old thing called jealousy and human nature.

You seem very cynical and are really doing no good for any of us or our kids abroad who need our support. You a Byrd follower, a hollywood movie star? Modanna fan?

I don’t think there are too many countries out of the third world that are jealous of the US. I wouldn’t be jealous of an economic superpower that can’t even give it’s citzens health care. As a matter of fact I think we are the only “first world” super power that doesn’t. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that goes to war against dictatorial regimes but supports Saudia Arabia. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that couldn’t care less about AIDS, starvation, genocide, etc. in Africa. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that ships more bibles per capita than it does money per capita to people of other countries in need.

I would like to know who the “most people” you speak of are that “more than admire us”. I work in a field that is heavily laden with non-americans and it doesn’t seem that way from where I sit.

Do not confuse honest questioning with cynicism. I have friends and family there myself, though I don’t support the effort–it is all for naught but for America to be able to say, “We are the world super power, you cannot exist without us.” Our actions to the rest of the world are in conflict with what America is supposed to stand for.[/quote]

Do you live in the US?

113

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Are you comparing this Finnish guy’s view to the US empowering the Iraqi citizens ability to vote? You are saying the world does not care? You are dead wrong. We do make a difference and we are performing our responsibility as world leaders.

Most people more than admire us and then hate us for it. It’s an old thing called jealousy and human nature.

You seem very cynical and are really doing no good for any of us or our kids abroad who need our support. You a Byrd follower, a hollywood movie star? Modanna fan?

I don’t think there are too many countries out of the third world that are jealous of the US. I wouldn’t be jealous of an economic superpower that can’t even give it’s citzens health care. As a matter of fact I think we are the only “first world” super power that doesn’t. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that goes to war against dictatorial regimes but supports Saudia Arabia. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that couldn’t care less about AIDS, starvation, genocide, etc. in Africa. I wouldn’t be jealous of a country that ships more bibles per capita than it does money per capita to people of other countries in need.

I would like to know who the “most people” you speak of are that “more than admire us”. I work in a field that is heavily laden with non-americans and it doesn’t seem that way from where I sit.

Do not confuse honest questioning with cynicism. I have friends and family there myself, though I don’t support the effort–it is all for naught but for America to be able to say, “We are the world super power, you cannot exist without us.” Our actions to the rest of the world are in conflict with what America is supposed to stand for.

Do you live in the US?
[/quote]

Yes.

114

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Just remember Iraq has become the main battleground in the War on Terror.
Iraq is where most of the foreign fighters are headed to and where most of the terrorist money is being spent.

JeffR

Jeff, the whole ‘foreign fighters’ thing is an overly hyped semi-myth. Out of the last 1000 insurgents captured or killed, only 50 were non-Iraqi nationals. 5%. (Mainly Saudis) I do admit though that a higher percentage of the suicide bombers are non-Iraqis, and probably that the small number of foreign fighters play a large role in organization of the insurgents. But this whole idea that we are drawing all the world’s terrorists into Iraq to go toe-to-toe with the US is largely a fiction.

As you have noted many of the foreign born terrorists are part of the terrorists command structure.

We are better off fighting them in Iraq than having them plan bombings in NYC.

It is always better to fight a war on foreign soil than on American soil.

The Iraqi people are the ones getting the shaft in this war. It really sucks for them, but it does not make it a bad strategy.

History will judge if it was a good strategy or not. It is too soon to tell.

We are in it. We must win it.

[/quote]

Well it’s a bad strategy, in part because we don’t seem to be winning it (in military terms). What does the brass say?

BAGHDAD – A growing number of senior American military officers in Iraq have concluded that there is no long-term military solution to an insurgency that has killed thousands of Iraqis and taken a heavy toll on U.S. troops during the past two years.

Instead, officers say, the only way to end the guerrilla war is through Iraqi politics – an arena that so far has been crippled by divisions between Shi’a Muslims, whose coalition dominated the January elections, and Sunni Muslims, who are a minority in Iraq but form the base of support for the insurgency.

“I think the more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede that … this insurgency is not going to be settled, the terrorists and the terrorism in Iraq is not going to be settled, through military options or military operations,”

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1118638276289660.xml&coll=1

In the real world this just isn’t going too well, predictably so. All the while were continually fed the same stupidly obvious lies of things are getting better, turning the corner, or Cheney’s knee slapper “last throes”. How much history does it take to realize the post-invasion planning was criminally inept?

115

Wow, you guys really suck.

Except for Rockscar and Zap.

What kind of shitty attitudes are these?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Loth,
To go a back a ways. It is not a weakness to recognize and accept the nature of humanity.[/quote]

So we are simple, stupid, cruel, and unable to conquer our xenophobia? This is not “the nature of humanity”, vroom. What you are describing is someone who is weak. Not everybody is like that; look around the forums for your living proof. You are better than this.

[quote]100meters wrote:
…And of course the same people are still suffering, malnutrition up, sickness up, death up, utilities down, safety down, etc…all so they can elect a government that most likely will resemble our other buddy, Iran—If they don’t have a civil war before that----was it worth it for bases? I dunno…[/quote]

Go read my “cheestastics anonymous” thread, pal. I see that in this issue you delight in looking down. There are many things which are turning around in Iraq, despite the rot of the nation under Saddam. Those things you pointed out like the electricity, sicknees, malnutrition, etc. are all getting better as I have discovered in my internet searching two weeks ago. Jeffy posted that story in my other thread about operation lightning something or other – yeah, the insurgency is REALLY kicking ass. ??? That was sarcasm, BTW. Come on, re-read that part of your post that I glued up above, and tell me that if an unbiased eye looks at it, that eye won’t just see a bunch of pessimism and conjecture. You are better than this.

[quote]temppa wrote:
I think, U.S. isn’t democrtic and free. That rich country, that let miions of peoples suffering powerty, can’t be democratic… or free. What a selfic-people’s country![/quote]

What my problem here is that you look at my country from across the Atlantic, and you see our greatness and our power, and you hate us for it, because the rest of the world has problems. I have said this to several other non-US posters here about this issue:

“If you want to see my country do something to change the state of the world, and to make it a better place for everyone, THEN FUCKING HELP US DO IT!!!”

I started this thread because I believe that we as a species will someday get over ourselves and co-exist in peace. I see a world without war. Widen your horizons, and look past conflicts in the here and now, and the lies and sensationalism which is splattered all over the TV and newspapers. You are better than this.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
See what democracy means to people out side of the U.S.? Yet all we care about is that these people can vote and have american made uniforms with a virtual “God bless the US” logo emphatically stitched into it. Judgement is upon us…be ready for the backlash.[/quote]

If I called 100 a pessimist above, then to be fair, I would have to call you a pessimistic Sally. I especially rankle at your “all we care about” sentence. Since when did you become so insightful as to know what “all we care about”? You are young, and I can see that you’re going through an “America is shitty” phase, and so I will forgive you for your cynical attitude. I just want you to try to hear something that doesn’t make sense to you now, but will someday: cynicism is NOT wisdom, my friend. “Judgement is upon us”? Come on, this is ridiculous and weak. You are better than this.

116

Loth,

We start out as animals. It is only through socialization, as we grow up, that we learn better.

How many of us have torn the wings off flies, shot at birds with a BB gun, dropped a cat to see if it really would land on it’s feet, kicked a stray dog, picked on the kids who rode the short buss and otherwise been a shitheel before learning better?

Of course we can overcome this, but it isn’t a natural state of being.

You need to understand that only in a civilized setting, with education, society and rules, does the better part of mankind become expressed.

Shut off the electricity, stop delivering the food and you will quickly see just how noble humanity is. At the bottom of it all we have survival instincts, fear of the unknown, hatred of the different, and all kinds of really really dumb ideas.

The nature of humanity is not what we see when we look out our window and see the western world. This is something we have climbed to, and only by socialization of our young do we stay at this level.

We, all of us, are ready to fall down to the level of the Lord of the Flies at a moments notice.

I can’t believe I am the guy that gets accused of the kumba-ya attitude at times.

So, if you want to achieve your goals, you need to make sure that proper socialization, values and ideals are taught to the young on a worldwide basis, in an ongoing way.

Barring that, you won’t have a magically enlighted world population that will reject conflict.

You need to really think about the nature of humanity. People getting into fights. People locked up in prisons. Wars. Theft. Rape. Arson. Domestic violence. Drugs. Are these aberrations that have just recently shown up?

Are things all that bad right now? No, not at all. However, I don’t think you have any clue about the nature of humanity – and the level of weakness that exists in all of us when it comes down to choices we make.

Believe me, I’d love to be wrong…

117

[quote]100meters wrote:
Well it’s a bad strategy, in part because we don’t seem to be winning it (in military terms). What does the brass say?

BAGHDAD – A growing number of senior American military officers in Iraq have concluded that there is no long-term military solution to an insurgency that has killed thousands of Iraqis and taken a heavy toll on U.S. troops during the past two years.

Instead, officers say, the only way to end the guerrilla war is through Iraqi politics – an arena that so far has been crippled by divisions between Shi’a Muslims, whose coalition dominated the January elections, and Sunni Muslims, who are a minority in Iraq but form the base of support for the insurgency.

“I think the more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede that … this insurgency is not going to be settled, the terrorists and the terrorism in Iraq is not going to be settled, through military options or military operations,”

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1118638276289660.xml&coll=1

In the real world this just isn’t going too well, predictably so. All the while were continually fed the same stupidly obvious lies of things are getting better, turning the corner, or Cheney’s knee slapper “last throes”. How much history does it take to realize the post-invasion planning was criminally inept?[/quote]

Dude, you only see what you want to! I read the link that you posted. This report about one statement from Brig. Gen. Donald Alston merely echoes what all of us Pro-Iraq people have been saying all along. This is not just a fight, this is a process which must end through the Iraqis taking control of their own destiny. How many times do we have to say this before it sinks in:

“We are NOT conquering Iraq!!!” four exclamation points there. If we were trying to conquer Iraq, it would have been done in a fucking week. We would be setting up McDonald’s over there right now. We would have dropped bombs everywhere, not just on military targets, and you would have seen some friggin’ shock and awe like this planet will never see again.

The insurgents do not have any air power. They do not have sea power. They are a guerilla force, and nothing more. We could have wiped out the cities at will from the safety of distance, and they have nowhere to go. Did we do this? No. Because we are not over there making new America, we are reclaiming Iraq for the Iraqi citizenry.

And really, the insurgents aren’t even a guerilla force any more. They are only terrorists, because they don’t have any cities left to claim as “theirs” like Falluja. As soon as we can get some kind of peace negotiated between the Sunnis and the Shiites, things will calm down.

118

[quote]vroom wrote:

We, all of us, are ready to fall down to the level of the Lord of the Flies at a moments notice.
[/quote]

Good point…and also the first book I ever read that I was assigned to. Put on a desert island without our current expected luxuries, you would quickly see how primitive man actually still is in spite of our social climb over the centuries. You still see this in minor office battles and gossip about who said what to whom. The only thing that keeps all out daily fights from occuring is the risk of potential consequences…which are completely dependant on the social setting. Remove these constructs and you have immediate chaos and war.

119

[quote]vroom wrote:
Loth,

We start out as animals. It is only through socialization, as we grow up, that we learn better.
[/quote]

I’m glad you’re up late, pal. Even though we disagree about a lot of stuff, I still think you’re one of the funnest (is that a word?) people to debate.

Hmmm… so what we are arguing here is what is the human id? I don’t think so. The sentence I glued above says it all. We are not talking about our baseness – at least I’m not. Believe me, very few guys on this forum see more human baseness than I do on a nightly basis. I am exposed to all manner of junkies, raped women, gangbangers with bullet holes in them, people throwing up everywhere, babies screaming uncontrollably… geez, I could write a list on here that would be eighty miles long.

What I’m talking about when I talk about human nature is not our baseness or “id” as Freud put it, but our “superego”. I used my deadlift example way back for a good reason. I believe that if there is a consistent will to achieve, almost anything is possible. That is pure unadulterated superego, pal. That baseness you referred to earlier is only a tiny part of a survival instinct which finds less and less relevance as we advance in our maturity as a species. It is a development, just like a deadlift number. It is NOT impossible to envision world peace. We have the tools, we have the dream, there is nothing to stop us except for time. Do we have enough time to grow into what we could all become before our ids overcome us and push the button on the nuclear warheads?

I think we have plenty of time. :slight_smile:

120

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
As soon as we can get some kind of peace negotiated between the Sunnis and the Shiites, things will calm down.[/quote]

Oh, and I meant to add to the end of this paragraph above:

In the meantime, if an insurgent decides it would be fun to shoot at our guys, he’s gonna end up decorating the street with his brains.

I know… I’m a classy guy. :slight_smile: