Flypaper Theory

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

You have to understand they do not really want to kill civilians they want you out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Do you think they will stop with that? [/quote]

Some will, some won´t.

There is no “they” when it comes to al`Queda.

Some will stop when you leave Iraq, some will when you leave Saudi Arabia, bith of which you will do anyway sooner or later.

The idea is to keep fanaticism on the lunatic fringes side that has no support from theri governments or people.

Give them real concerns like Iraq and they will use them.

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.

Weak.

Accurate.

I know. I thank my teachers for it.

Looks like your comprehension continues to slip. Sad for you but I enjoy it when the wacko’s melt down.

Do you have a life Orion…outside of the internet?

No, I live to educate you.

I sincerely apologise for having failed you so far.

[/quote]

Failure. Something you are no doubt well acquainated with.

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.

Weak.

Accurate.

I know. I thank my teachers for it.

Looks like your comprehension continues to slip. Sad for you but I enjoy it when the wacko’s melt down.

Do you have a life Orion…outside of the internet?

No, I live to educate you.

I sincerely apologise for having failed you so far.

Failure. Something you are no doubt well acquainated with.

[/quote]

I have seen you post, yes.

Since I am not even sure that you tried to make a point I do not feel comfortable with calling it a complete failure though.

Hypocrisy Rules the West

by Paul Craig Roberts

Shame has vanished from Western “civilization.” Hypocrisy has taken its place.

On September 28, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown could be heard on National Public Radio decrying the use of violence against democratic protesters by the government in Burma. Brown declared the British people�??s revulsion over the violence inflicted by the Burmese government on its people. But Brown said nothing about the violence the British government was inflicting on Iraqis and Afghans.

George W. Bush also struck the blameless pose when he declared: “The world is watching the people of Burma take to the streets to demand their freedom, and the American people stand in solidarity with these brave individuals.”

Bush and Brown do not have the same sympathy for the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan. Neither Bush nor Brown stand in solidarity with those who are demanding their freedom from foreign occupation by American and British troops. Indeed, Bush and Brown, as commanders in chief, are on a killing spree that makes the government in Burma look extremely restrained by comparison.

Why were British soldiers sent to kill Iraqis and Afghans? September 11 had nothing whatsoever to do with the UK. No doubt but that the corrupt Tony Blair was paid off to drag the British people into Bush�??s Middle East war for American/Israeli hegemony, but Brown has done nothing to terminate Bush�??s use of the British military as mercenaries.

The NPR announcers also supported the Burmese people, but they, too, show little disturbance over Bush�??s five-year old wars that we now know were based entirely on lies. Al Qaeda is not the Taliban, and Iraq had no WMD. Neither country was a threat to the US. Now that we know this, why does the media still give Bush and Brown a free pass to use violence against Iraqis and Afghans?

To cut to the chase, what is the difference between Bush and Brown on one hand and the murderous Burmese government on the other? Bush and Brown are actually worse. They pretend to be democrats concerned with what people actually want. The Burmese government doesn�??t pretend to be anything but a military dictatorship. Moreover, the Burmese government is clean by comparison as it hasn�??t committed acts of naked aggression �?? war crimes under the Nuremberg standard �?? by invading other countries and attempting to occupy them.

Despite all the killing Bush has accomplished, he thirsts for yet more blood. Iran is in his and Israel�??s sights. All indications are that Bush is going to attack Iran. Propaganda, demonizations, and crass lies are pouring out of the Bush regime and its media and academic propagandists such as Columbia University president Lee Bollinger. Both parties in Congress have lined up behind the coming attack on Iran. The despicable senator Joe Lieberman even snuck language into a bill to give Bush the go ahead.

Who is going to stop Bush from a third war crime? Not his vice president, Not his national security adviser, not his secretary of defense. Not his secretary of state. Not Congress. Not the US military. Not the corporate fat cats. Not the Israel Lobby. Not the bought and paid for “allies.” Not the anti-war movement. Not the American people. Certainly not the media.

Americans are content with whatever crimes their government commits as long as the justification is Americans�?? safety.

Americans�?? willingness to murder others out of fear for their own safety is a result of September 11. The antiwar movement is impotent, because it has accepted the government�??s 9/11 story. To oppose a war when you accept the government�??s reason for the war is an indefensible position.

The Bush regime knows that if people will believe its 9/11 story, they will believe anything. Propaganda silences facts, and Americans fall for one set of falsehoods after another. The alleged 9/11 hijackers all came from countries allied with the US, principally Saudi Arabia, but Americans believe the government�??s lies that Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Syria are responsible. Americans have been convinced that without “regime change” in these countries, the American superpower will remain helpless in face of stateless Muslims armed with box cutters.

Americans have been brainwashed to believe that Muslims hate us for our “freedom and democracy,” whereas in fact the problem is the US government�??s immoral foreign policy and interference in the internal affairs of Muslim countries. Bush�??s message to the Middle East is clear: Be a puppet state or be destroyed.

In the meantime, to prevent democracy and civil liberties from getting in the way of making Americans safe, Bush has set aside habeas corpus, due process, right to legal representation, privacy, and the separation of powers mandated by the US Constitution. Otherwise, Bush says, we will lose the “war on terror.”

Bush says he has made Americans safe by ridding them of these constitutional impediments to their safety. And once American bombs fall on Iran and Syria, those countries will be free and democratic, too, like Iraq and Afghanistan.

In leading Americans to this conclusion, Bush has sunk the United States to a new low in human intelligence and morality.

October 1, 2007

Funny, I don’t remember the monks in Burma setting off car bombs in crowded markets.

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.

Weak.

Accurate.

I know. I thank my teachers for it.

Looks like your comprehension continues to slip. Sad for you but I enjoy it when the wacko’s melt down.

Do you have a life Orion…outside of the internet?

No, I live to educate you.

I sincerely apologise for having failed you so far.

Failure. Something you are no doubt well acquainated with.

I have seen you post, yes.

Since I am not even sure that you tried to make a point I do not feel comfortable with calling it a complete failure though.[/quote]

You are getting even more lame and trending downward. Not a good sign.

An insult should have at least a shred of humor. Perhaps you could ask one of the other kids for advice.

Thank you Orion for completely ignoring the gist of my post. As I said, blind.

Did I say everyone we are fighting in Iraq is a terrorist? No I never said that, you just decide to place words in my mouth and twist the meaning, and apparently completely glossed over my point of mass graves. Your not saying you like the genocide Saddam was doing do you?

But there is a world wide problem with the extremists that you simply want to gloss over, again blinded by the �??Great Satan�?? statements made over there, blaming America for all of the Earths ills. Really nice to have that scapegoat isn’t it?

I have a friend from South Africa. Which country escapes me right now, but he had to leave at a young age, and finished growing up in America because the rest of his family and friends were being killed for not being Muslim.

I have another friend from Afghanistan who is Muslim, and is happy he can go back to visit his family since the Taliban will no longer kill him.

And regardless of what you and all the propagandists say, there were links between Saddam and Al-Quadea. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi being the most obvious. Having attacked America in many terrorist attacks before 911, and protected by Saddam and his government.

I remember arguing with people here before he died who kept saying he was not part of Al-Qadea, until he announced his loyalty. (Then he died and Al-Qaeda named a successor.)

You only see the current battle, and do not have the foresight to see the whole war. “Oh no, bomb went off and innocent died. Hate war now.” That thinking is too simplistic.

There is a cancer growing out of control, and you are complaining about the chemotherapy.

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.

Weak.

Accurate.

I know. I thank my teachers for it.

Looks like your comprehension continues to slip. Sad for you but I enjoy it when the wacko’s melt down.

Do you have a life Orion…outside of the internet?

No, I live to educate you.

I sincerely apologise for having failed you so far.

Failure. Something you are no doubt well acquainated with.

I have seen you post, yes.

Since I am not even sure that you tried to make a point I do not feel comfortable with calling it a complete failure though.

You are getting even more lame and trending downward. Not a good sign.

An insult should have at least a shred of humor. Perhaps you could ask one of the other kids for advice.

[/quote]

Ah, re-defining reality the way it best serves your goals.

That was our topic, yes.

So you call them “terrorists”, they call you “infidels”.

You kill civilians to achieve your goals, they do the same.

The difference in your moral absolute, uni-cultural universe is the following:

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Thank you Orion for completely ignoring the gist of my post. As I said, blind.

Did I say everyone we are fighting in Iraq is a terrorist? No I never said that, you just decide to place words in my mouth and twist the meaning, and apparently completely glossed over my point of mass graves. Your not saying you like the genocide Saddam was doing do you?

But there is a world wide problem with the extremists that you simply want to gloss over, again blinded by the �??Great Satan�?? statements made over there, blaming America for all of the Earths ills. Really nice to have that scapegoat isn’t it?

I have a friend from South Africa. Which country escapes me right now, but he had to leave at a young age, and finished growing up in America because the rest of his family and friends were being killed for not being Muslim.

I have another friend from Afghanistan who is Muslim, and is happy he can go back to visit his family since the Taliban will no longer kill him.

And regardless of what you and all the propagandists say, there were links between Saddam and Al-Quadea. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi being the most obvious. Having attacked America in many terrorist attacks before 911, and protected by Saddam and his government.

I remember arguing with people here before he died who kept saying he was not part of Al-Qadea, until he announced his loyalty. (Then he died and Al-Qaeda named a successor.)

You only see the current battle, and do not have the foresight to see the whole war. “Oh no, bomb went off and innocent died. Hate war now.” That thinking is too simplistic.

There is a cancer growing out of control, and you are complaining about the chemotherapy. [/quote]

So your main point is that all of this is part of a bigger issue, radical Islam?

[quote]orion wrote:

So your main point is that all of this is part of a bigger issue, radical Islam?

[/quote]

Yes, definitely.

And before you say it, if Christian radicals were a similar threat, I would say the same thing about them. In fact radical Christianity was a big part of the dark ages, and I do not want to see another dark ages come in more modern times.

The actions in Waco show that the American government does take these people just as seriously. It’s just that these are such a smaller minority. Most of the Christian radicals just spend their time complaining about homosexuals.

And yes there are radical Jews, again not as big a threat, and more focused on the state of Israel, not the world.

And yes there are Hindu extremists. Though the group I saw reported on looked like a group of morons who did nothing but play army.

[quote]orion wrote:
So he had a moral right because he could?
[/quote]

In his mind, and the mind of his followers: Yes. That is what makes them dangerous.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Yet where is the outrage against Syria?

Here you go: OUTRAGE! (“against” whoever was behind the assassinations).[/quote]

My point was: The US supported the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah based in Lebanon.

But when it came time for the Lebanese army to attack Al-Qaeda elements in it’s country, who did it go to for aid? The US. If the country was as outraged as some of the people on this board about Israel’s attacks, it should have told us to go to hell, but it did not.

I find that interesting.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
By the same token, if a government supplies arms to terrorists, trains terrorists, funds suicide bomber’s familes, isn’t it fair to hold those governments responcible?

As far as I know, the US is the only country to have been convicted of funding and training terrorists.[/quote]

By who, exactly, not the pro-communist UN during the cold war?

[quote]orion wrote:
So, the fact that Saudi nationals, with the help of the Afghan government blew up two towers in NY, does not give you the right to kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq.
[/quote]

A question that is never touched upon. If Iraq did not aid the 9-11 attacks, where did the weaponized anthrax come from? People seem to forget that? Did the Afghanis or the Saudis make this themselves, or did it come from a country which had access to this material? From Iraq?

[quote]orion wrote:
You kill civilians to achieve your goals, they do the same.
[/quote]

The goal of the terrorist is to kill civilians. Regardless of what you may say, we did not go into Iraq just to kill civilians. If we did, how come so many came out to vote? They clearly thought they were voting for a better future.

Before the invasion, recall seeing video of people marching in suicide vests, the same suicide vests Al-Qaeda and Hamas wear. coincidence? If there were no terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion, what’s the deal with these vests and how did they suddenly get into the hands of the terrorists?

If there were no terrorists in Iraq before the US invaded, (as your propaganda says) what is the solution: to further attack and kill terrorists, or leave and let the terrorists kill even more civilians? Do you think the mass killings and suicide bombings will magically stop once the US leaves?

[quote]The Mage wrote:
orion wrote:

So your main point is that all of this is part of a bigger issue, radical Islam?

Yes, definitely.

And before you say it, if Christian radicals were a similar threat, I would say the same thing about them. In fact radical Christianity was a big part of the dark ages, and I do not want to see another dark ages come in more modern times.

The actions in Waco show that the American government does take these people just as seriously. It’s just that these are such a smaller minority. Most of the Christian radicals just spend their time complaining about homosexuals.

And yes there are radical Jews, again not as big a threat, and more focused on the state of Israel, not the world.

And yes there are Hindu extremists. Though the group I saw reported on looked like a group of morons who did nothing but play army.[/quote]

You obviously do not get my point.

I was asking where this feeling of US moral superiority comes from when the US is killing more civilians than terrorists ever could.

The answer is apparently that the US do not want to kill those people, it just happens as a matter of consequence.

That would be a form of dolus eventualis though, which borders so close to intent that it is sometimes indistinguishable from it.

Is that a serious way to see things that you can kill as many people as you like as an unintended consequence but not one if you really mean it?

When does this logic become absurd?

At a ratio of 10:1? 100:1? 10000:1?

Your answer is that you bring more reasons to the table why the war in Iraq is justified while I question that there is a significant difference between the US moral outlook and that of Bin Laden.

Both see people as disposable pawns.

Giving me more reasons WHY you think it is necessary to use them as disposable pawns has really nothing to do with the questions I have yet to get an answer too.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
So, the fact that Saudi nationals, with the help of the Afghan government blew up two towers in NY, does not give you the right to kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq.

A question that is never touched upon. If Iraq did not aid the 9-11 attacks, where did the weaponized anthrax come from? People seem to forget that? Did the Afghanis or the Saudis make this themselves, or did it come from a country which had access to this material? From Iraq?[/quote]

Probably not. Iraq was far ahead of amateur stuff like that.

Plus, cui bono?

Definitely not Saddam Hussein.