[quote]Chushin wrote:
What an excellent post. Nice job Doc.[/quote]
I have answered several of your questions, in several threads, and yet you won`t answer mine?
Does this not insinuate that your argunments are pretty, um, weak?
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Israel kills more Lebanese civilians than U.S. civilians died on 9/11, and we cheer them on and ship them weapons? And you wonder why we’re not popular in the Middle East? Wow.
When Lebanon was attacking the Al-Qaeda elements based there, they gladly accepted our weapons.
How many Lebanese presidents did Israeli kill? Yet where is the outrage against Syria?
Where is the outrage against Iran which ships weapons to Hezbollah that rain down on Israeli cities?
For these foreign assholes to get worked up, it really has to be against the USA. They don’t really think before posting. If the USA suddenly did not exist, their little cesspool countries would be overrun so quickly they wouldn’t be able to say “Down with America”.
Why do you even bother with these little turds?
It’s so obvious they’re so J E A L O U S.
;)[/quote]
You still were not able to give one example that demonstrates our jealousy.
I am dying to know though.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
For these foreign assholes to get worked up, it really has to be against the USA. They don’t really think before posting. If the USA suddenly did not exist, their little cesspool countries would be overrun so quickly they wouldn’t be able to say “Down with America”.
Why do you even bother with these little turds?
Indeed. I, for one, will no longer address or respond to these “turds” from “cesspool countries” as you so eloquently put it. Perhaps some others would like to join me, until we can “unclog the toilet.”
Final PS to the turds: If you don’t like what the US does, why don’t you stop us? Awwwww,… you can’t, can you? :-([/quote]
Neither could you stop Bin Laden.
So he had a moral right because he could?
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people … are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?
And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.
Orion, here, embraces “group responsibility” or “class guilt,” a concept exercised in the last century to murder countless millions. He marries this to moral relativism–the unthinking link between untargeted muder and perceived “injustice.”
The result of such thinking is horrifying, irresponsible, and seductive when expressed by an otherwise intelligent writer. Why should we ever tolerate this repugnant moral gymnastic?
War is war, with rules of engagement, vilations of which are examined,punished and rare.
Terrorism against civilians is excused, it seems, by ideologues on the other side of the ocean.
That is an interesting analysis, yet misses the mark.
I was asking if it was ok to judge the US the same way it judges the world.
If it is ok to invade a country that harbours and finances terrorists, even though only a small percentage of the population really do so, is it ok to blow up civilians that “harbour and finance” the US military and government EVEN THOUGH, they could get rid of their government much easier than lets say Iraquis or Iranians?
So, on which side of the Atlantic leads thinking in “group responsibility” to start wars that kill hundreds of thousands?
Or to put it into a nutshell:
If the USA can use collective guilt as a reason for violence why can`t they?
No, sorry, no one should fall for this weak rhetorical trap:
Any civilian loss in war is regrettable or execrable.
The US does not target innocent civilians. As a nation, it regrets the loss of civilian life.
And now, it is in an unwanted position: that of referee of a civil war, in which Muslims kill Muslims, far in excess of war casualties–and the US is roundly derogated for the murder of others. Who alone is totally and uniquely responsible in this horror?
The US, as a policy, does not warrant collective punishment. It is a crime.
The same can not said about Islamic “jihadists” and their fellow travelers.
Hedo and others are correct: the US does not target civilians. Terrorists do.
And frankly, the moral relativists will never understand that position. Shame, Orion, that some still believe in moral ideals, which are mourned when violated, while some others celebrate the murder of innocents by trading moral judgment in favor of amoral ideology.
(Lixy, whose moral compass must spin like a gyrocopter, is so devoid of character and historical balance, and is beneath the dignity of comment. Others on this forum may serve truth the best by simply ignoring himi.)
[/quote]
And I am gladly putting it another way.
If all the 9-11 highjackers only had wanted to bring the buildings down, but were kind of accepting that this might cause some civilians deaths, would they then be on par with the US´s actions?
You know, it is the total ignorance and twisted logic that makes it hard to keep up with these forums.
Did somebody actually support the 911 attacks?
Call terrorists “freedom fighters”? (“Ya know thems there Nazis are just freedom fighters.”) Yeah, what bullshit.
That there were not terrorists in Iraq before we attacked? Not true.
Actually compare terrorist attacks, which is specifically targeting civilians, including a woman who said her goal was to kill Jewish children, to fighting against terrorists?
There is a reason Iraq is so important to extremist Muslims, and that is they cannot have a successful democracy exist in the Mideast.
Anyone who has read the accounts of mass graves found in Iraq and still believes Saddam should have been left in power is an idiot.
This is not just about Iraq, Afghanistan, 911, or the supposed American Imperialism. Screw the fucking propaganda, and the brainwashing of the “politically correct” ideas, and look at what the extremist Muslims are doing and where they are headed. If you are talking about just 10%, and evidence is that it is higher, of the Muslims being radicalized, you are talking about 100 million people supporting these crazy ideas.
These are not freedom fighters, they are attempting an overthrow of the world. People are actually being raised to believe it is their religious duty to blow themselves up to kill people, and specifically civilians.
Do I want America to be at war? No. Do I want our soldiers dying at war? No. Do I want civilians killed in collateral damage? Of course not.
But it does not take very much imagination to see what the alternative is. A group of people more fanatical then the Nazis, spreading hate, fear, and destruction across the world.
Did anyone learn the lessons of WWII?
I realize my words are going to fall on deaf ears. Too busy playing politics, hating Bush, or blaming America for all of the words ills, instead of seeing the truth.
Did anyone actually listen to what Ayman al-Zawahiri, second in command under Bin-Laden, said? He said America was being attacked for not not being Muslim, and not living under Sharia Law. Is this freedom fighting? Attempting to force me into a religion? Telling me what to think, and believe?
Look up the term “Useful Idiots”.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
You know, it is the total ignorance and twisted logic that makes it hard to keep up with these forums.
Did somebody actually support the 911 attacks?
Call terrorists “freedom fighters”? (“Ya know thems there Nazis are just freedom fighters.”) Yeah, what bullshit.
That there were not terrorists in Iraq before we attacked? Not true.
Actually compare terrorist attacks, which is specifically targeting civilians, including a woman who said her goal was to kill Jewish children, to fighting against terrorists?
There is a reason Iraq is so important to extremist Muslims, and that is they cannot have a successful democracy exist in the Mideast.
Anyone who has read the accounts of mass graves found in Iraq and still believes Saddam should have been left in power is an idiot.
This is not just about Iraq, Afghanistan, 911, or the supposed American Imperialism. Screw the fucking propaganda, and the brainwashing of the “politically correct” ideas, and look at what the extremist Muslims are doing and where they are headed. If you are talking about just 10%, and evidence is that it is higher, of the Muslims being radicalized, you are talking about 100 million people supporting these crazy ideas.
These are not freedom fighters, they are attempting an overthrow of the world. People are actually being raised to believe it is their religious duty to blow themselves up to kill people, and specifically civilians.
Do I want America to be at war? No. Do I want our soldiers dying at war? No. Do I want civilians killed in collateral damage? Of course not.
But it does not take very much imagination to see what the alternative is. A group of people more fanatical then the Nazis, spreading hate, fear, and destruction across the world.
Did anyone learn the lessons of WWII?
I realize my words are going to fall on deaf ears. Too busy playing politics, hating Bush, or blaming America for all of the words ills, instead of seeing the truth.
Did anyone actually listen to what Ayman al-Zawahiri, second in command under Bin-Laden, said? He said America was being attacked for not not being Muslim, and not living under Sharia Law. Is this freedom fighting? Attempting to force me into a religion? Telling me what to think, and believe?
Look up the term “Useful Idiots”.[/quote]
You are doing it again.
Meaning, calling people who fight because you are in Iraq terrorists, though they fight for a number of reasons.
And since they are “terrorists” it is ok to go after them no matter how many people hat kills.
Well, two can play that game, they call you Big Satan and only fools will fall for that, in the west at least, but then propaganda is tailored to a specific audience.
Muslim fundamentalism, 9-11 and Iraq are at best loosely connected issues and yet the war was sold on the premise that Islamofascism is rising and on the vague notion that Iraq is full of Muslim Arabs and therefore fair game.
So, the fact that Saudi nationals, with the help of the Afghan government blew up two towers in NY, does not give you the right to kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq.
There is only one force causing the major part of death and destruction in Iraq and that is the US.
I am sure that there would be peace when they just rolled over and spread their legs, I am sure the British would have stopped fighting too, had you just given in to their demands.
That is not how an occupation works.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
As to cluster bombs even someone like yourself, head firmly buried in the sand, realizes the US doesn’t use them against civilian targets.
Try and keep up. The link is dated in 2004.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0415-13.htm
More importantly, the US was cheering up as Israelis dropped cluster bombs on civilians in Lebanon last year.
Silly even by your low standards.
The rag you linked to was an editorialized version of a news story that was devoid of fact. Common in the ME as you are well aware.
Curiosuly where are the pictures of Americans cheering. Your still a fool.
If you’re just gonna make ad hominem attacks, could you at least be honest? There was widespread cheering in the U.S. when Israel launched its foolish war against Hezbollah. Condoleeza Rice called it “the birth pangs of a new Middle East” (she’s our Secretary of State, remember?), the usual suspects at the vast majority of media outlets recycled the usual story of brave embattled Israel, that shining light of democracy in the Middle East, etc.
Israel kills more Lebanese civilians than U.S. civilians died on 9/11, and we cheer them on and ship them weapons? And you wonder why we’re not popular in the Middle East? Wow.[/quote]
I don’t wonder at all. It’s not a popularity contest. I also don’t have any issue at all with Israel attacking Hezbollah as often as they can.
[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.
Weak.
[/quote]
Accurate.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Great post, but the true logic of it will totally escape Americas haters. As I’ve said, all they want to do is sit back and throw stones at the USA. And without the USA their pitiful little “countries” would fall in a matter of days.
Pity them…
[/quote]
Yes, because the number of nations that could succesfully attack the EU is exactly,
wait for it,
zero.
What am I jealous of again?
[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.
Weak.
Accurate.
[/quote]
I know. I thank my teachers for it.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people … are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?
And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.
Orion, here, embraces “group responsibility” or “class guilt,” a concept exercised in the last century to murder countless millions. He marries this to moral relativism–the unthinking link between untargeted muder and perceived “injustice.”
The result of such thinking is horrifying, irresponsible, and seductive when expressed by an otherwise intelligent writer. Why should we ever tolerate this repugnant moral gymnastic?
War is war, with rules of engagement, vilations of which are examined,punished and rare.
Terrorism against civilians is excused, it seems, by ideologues on the other side of the ocean.
That is an interesting analysis, yet misses the mark.
I was asking if it was ok to judge the US the same way it judges the world.
If it is ok to invade a country that harbours and finances terrorists, even though only a small percentage of the population really do so, is it ok to blow up civilians that “harbour and finance” the US military and government EVEN THOUGH, they could get rid of their government much easier than lets say Iraquis or Iranians?
So, on which side of the Atlantic leads thinking in “group responsibility” to start wars that kill hundreds of thousands?
Or to put it into a nutshell:
If the USA can use collective guilt as a reason for violence why can`t they?
No, sorry, no one should fall for this weak rhetorical trap:
Any civilian loss in war is regrettable or execrable.
The US does not target innocent civilians. As a nation, it regrets the loss of civilian life.
And now, it is in an unwanted position: that of referee of a civil war, in which Muslims kill Muslims, far in excess of war casualties–and the US is roundly derogated for the murder of others. Who alone is totally and uniquely responsible in this horror?
The US, as a policy, does not warrant collective punishment. It is a crime.
The same can not said about Islamic “jihadists” and their fellow travelers.
Hedo and others are correct: the US does not target civilians. Terrorists do.
And frankly, the moral relativists will never understand that position. Shame, Orion, that some still believe in moral ideals, which are mourned when violated, while some others celebrate the murder of innocents by trading moral judgment in favor of amoral ideology.
(Lixy, whose moral compass must spin like a gyrocopter, is so devoid of character and historical balance, and is beneath the dignity of comment. Others on this forum may serve truth the best by simply ignoring himi.)
[/quote]
Good post.
[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.
Weak.
Hedo throws out this line very often. Probably one of those self-educated type who scorn at formal education. He overlooks the truism that is: “you can lead a horse to the water but you can’t make him drink/ you can put a man to school but you can’t make him think” (B. Harper)[/quote]
Why do you assume that little man? Big difference between a top American University and the madrassa where you were educated.
Success is actually doing something with your education. When either of you correct that deficiency let me know.
[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.
Weak.
Accurate.
I know. I thank my teachers for it.
[/quote]
Looks like your comprehension continues to slip. Sad for you but I enjoy it when the wacko’s melt down.
Do you have a life Orion…outside of the internet?
[quote]lixy wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Hedo and others are correct: the US does not target civilians. Terrorists do.
There would be no terrorists in Iraq had the US not invaded the country. [/quote]
Bullshit. Iraq was loaded w/ terrorists before the US invaded. Many of them wore the uniform of the Iraqi Army and murdered Shia and Kurd.
Saddam funded terrorist attacks and harbored terrorists as well.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Israel kills more Lebanese civilians than U.S. civilians died on 9/11, and we cheer them on and ship them weapons? And you wonder why we’re not popular in the Middle East? Wow.
When Lebanon was attacking the Al-Qaeda elements based there, they gladly accepted our weapons.
How many Lebanese presidents did Israeli kill? Yet where is the outrage against Syria?
Where is the outrage against Iran which ships weapons to Hezbollah that rain down on Israeli cities?[/quote]
Excellent questions.
[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
If you can’t read and comprehend blame your teacher not me. Perhaps you can get a refund for your poor education.
Weak.
Accurate.
I know. I thank my teachers for it.
Looks like your comprehension continues to slip. Sad for you but I enjoy it when the wacko’s melt down.
Do you have a life Orion…outside of the internet?
[/quote]
No, I live to educate you.
I sincerely apologise for having failed you so far.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
And frankly, the moral relativists will never understand that position. Shame, Orion, that some still believe in moral ideals, which are mourned when violated, while some others celebrate the murder of innocents by trading moral judgment in favor of amoral ideology.
Good post.[/quote]
Why?
You have to understand they do not really want to kill civilians they want you out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
The US civilians are just an unfortunate coincidence.
Do you feel better now?
If not, the average Iraqui does not either.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
…
I realize my words are going to fall on deaf ears. Too busy playing politics, hating Bush, or blaming America for all of the words ills, instead of seeing the truth.
Did anyone actually listen to what Ayman al-Zawahiri, second in command under Bin-Laden, said? He said America was being attacked for not not being Muslim, and not living under Sharia Law. Is this freedom fighting? Attempting to force me into a religion? Telling me what to think, and believe?
Look up the term “Useful Idiots”.[/quote]
Another good post.
[quote]orion wrote:
…
You have to understand they do not really want to kill civilians they want you out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
…
[/quote]
Do you think they will stop with that?