Flypaper Theory

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
62

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

So how is it that US citizens share no responsibility for what is done in their name with their money?

And why are they not legitimate targets if they do have a responsibilty to keep their government in check?

Un-freak’n believable!!! You can’t possibly be this simple-minded.

It’s a DEMOCRACY, genius. What about those citizens who are working AGAINST whatever behavior you happen to be opposed to? Are they “legitimate targets,” too? Are the children and infants who have no political voice “legitimate targets?” What about, for example, the Muslims who were melted on 9/11? “Legitimate targets?”

For god’s sake, what a STUPID freak’n post!

So any kind of resistance would be out of the question?

Maybe a tax boycott to stop the killing in your name? To send your government the message that causing the death of 500000 children is not worth it?

Would that be to much to ask from the land of the “free” and home of the “brave”?

  1. You didn’t answer my questions. Please do so.

  2. If I don’t pay my taxes, go to jail, lose my home & my job, my wife and kids starve while I’m in prison, I get beat up and or killed in prison, come out of prison and then can’t resume my profession, will your friends the terrorists “promise” to shoot around me and my family? Will their bombs “avoid” me and mine?

You know the longer this discussion goes on, the more I’m convinced you’re some kid who knows shit about the real world. Tell me, how old are you? Are you married? Do you have kids? Are you ready and willing to sacrifice them for those “500000 children,” even though you know it wouldn’t make any real difference if you did?

“Tax boycott.” For crying outloud! You Euro-know-it-alls are really something to behold.

I await your enlightened answers to ALL of my questions.[/quote]

I know what would happen if you did it alone.

I am not asking you do to it.

I also know that if only 1 million did it, none of this would happen because the US does simply not have the resources and your politicians are, lets face it, spineless cowards.

The bigger point however was, does this lack of caring and yet financing make the US citizens legitimate targets if we apply American standards?

However, I do not draw the conclusion that they should be bombed, I draw the conclusion that you should leave Iran alone as you should have left Iraq alone.

edit: I removed “not” before bombed because it obviously changed the meaning.

63

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Well what do you know. A reasonable response.

To answer your (assumedly rhetorical) questions: Of course not. No.

You know, if you guys would get off your self-righteous horses, remember how YOU have royally screwed up the world in your own way, and try approaching Americans with a little civility instead of a holier-than-thou attitude, you just might find some allies, some who have doubts and some who don’t know much. They would all be more willing to listen to your point.

Or, you can just keep on as you have been, and piss us all off.[/quote]

That is funny because my point is that in the end Americans justify their bombing other people with their moral superiority and supposedly justified outrage after 9-11 and yet refuse to be judged by their own mores and are furious when someone does so.

Calling it self-righteous and so on…

Then you are not in the same position as the British Empire, Nazi Germany or Sowjet Russia, you have all these historic examples to learn from, which they did not.

65

[quote]orion wrote:

No. But if you invade a country twice and cause a huge amount of death it is hard not to see a certain connection. Also building bases on what they consider their holy lands was probably stupid and, given the US military technology, unnecessary.
[/quote]

When did we invade a country twice?

Yes building bases on what the insane radical fanatical wahabbi sect considers holy lands was stupid, but we were invited there by the wahabbi rulers who did not seem to give a shit.

66

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Would that be to much to ask from the land of the “free” and home of the “brave”?

…and your politicians are, lets face it, spineless cowards.

Thank you for making your antipathy toward me, my nation and its citizens so crystal clear. It is now obvious to me that talking to you is the equivalent of pissing into the wind. You are about as objective as your good friend Osama at a Catholic church service, and as integrity-challenged as your Swedish buddy.

I won’t waste any more of my time on you. Unlike you children, we adults have families and other responsibilities to take care of. Feel free to carry on telling the world how terrible the US is. I mean, really, who gives a fuck what some dumb Austrian thinks anyway?

PS Hiel Hitler![/quote]

I have answered your questions.

Won`t you answer mine?

I had only one.

If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in their name and yet cannot or will not be bothered to stop “the government of the people, by the people, for the people” from doing that, are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.

67

[quote]orion wrote:
So the US created an environment where death rates more than doubled.
[/quote]

We created this environment, or did the terrorists who do not want a peaceful democratic Iraq to exist?

68

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
So the US created an environment where death rates more than doubled.

We created this environment, or did the terrorists who do not want a peaceful democratic Iraq to exist?[/quote]

Well they certainly weren`t there before.

I am not saying that they are not to blame for their own actions I am just saying that so are you.

As well as you cannot allways blame America you cannot allways blame the terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters/militias and/or just plain gangsters.

69

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
So the US created an environment where death rates more than doubled.

We created this environment, or did the terrorists who do not want a peaceful democratic Iraq to exist?[/quote]

Not to boast, but I saw this coming already when it started. You started a process and its development has been quite obvious. I hope you have the tenacity to keep the course, spend your money and spill your blood on a foolhardy mission. I can’t see what good a quick withdrawal could bring to Iraq.

70

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
So the US created an environment where death rates more than doubled.

We created this environment, or did the terrorists who do not want a peaceful democratic Iraq to exist?

Not to boast, but I saw this coming already when it started. You started a process and its development has been quite obvious. I hope you have the tenacity to keep the course, spend your money and spill your blood on a foolhardy mission. I can’t see what good a quick withdrawal could bring to Iraq.[/quote]

Yeah, anyone with a slight view of the history of the last 20 years in the middle east could have seen it. How the brass at the Pentagon could not is beyond me.

71

[quote]orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people … are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.[/quote]

Orion, here, embraces “group responsibility” or “class guilt,” a concept exercised in the last century to murder countless millions. He marries this to moral relativism–the unthinking link between untargeted muder and perceived “injustice.”

The result of such thinking is horrifying, irresponsible, and seductive when expressed by an otherwise intelligent writer. Why should we ever tolerate this repugnant moral gymnastic?

War is war, with rules of engagement, vilations of which are examined,punished and rare.
Terrorism against civilians is excused, it seems, by ideologues on the other side of the ocean.

72

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Terrorism against civilians is excused, it seems, by ideologues on the other side of the ocean.[/quote]

Right on the money, my friend. One only needs to take a quick glance around here to realize that bombing and invading Iraq or “the occupied territories” is excused by so many.

Wait…on which side of the ocean are you?

73

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people … are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.

Orion, here, embraces “group responsibility” or “class guilt,” a concept exercised in the last century to murder countless millions. He marries this to moral relativism–the unthinking link between untargeted muder and perceived “injustice.”

The result of such thinking is horrifying, irresponsible, and seductive when expressed by an otherwise intelligent writer. Why should we ever tolerate this repugnant moral gymnastic?

War is war, with rules of engagement, vilations of which are examined,punished and rare.
Terrorism against civilians is excused, it seems, by ideologues on the other side of the ocean.[/quote]

That is an interesting analysis, yet misses the mark.

I was asking if it was ok to judge the US the same way it judges the world.

If it is ok to invade a country that harbours and finances terrorists, even though only a small percentage of the population really do so, is it ok to blow up civilians that “harbour and finance” the US military and government EVEN THOUGH, they could get rid of their government much easier than lets say Iraquis or Iranians?

So, on which side of the Atlantic leads thinking in “group responsibility” to start wars that kill hundreds of thousands?

Or to put it into a nutshell:

If the USA can use collective guilt as a reason for violence why can`t they?

74

[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
However the U.S. has the ability to fight back when attacked.

Everybody has the ability to fight back when attacked.

A more accurate statement would be: The US has the habit of bombing and invading countries even when not attacked.[/quote]

Projection of force. It’s a first world military term. Something you are not familiar with no doubt.

75

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Oh come on silly. Your ancestors killed a lot more civilians intentionally then the US ever did by accident.

My morals never shift unlike yours. I also don’t live in constant fear like you do. Same rules for everyone. Don’t start a fight you can’t finish. The weaker side doesn’t set the rules.

Find a way to live in peace with the great satan, avoid the great satan, ignore the great satan, but don’t ever fuck with the great satan because the great satan will respond the way it wants to, not the way the perpetually outrages expect it to. It’s simple. Your dim and don’t understand it but rational people do.

You want to take a shot at some Americans, like I said, convince your government to do so. I’m sure we would deal with it, same as the US will deal with any attack upon it’s citizens. But for now you’ll just have to continue whining on the internet.

So to sum your posts up:

Your morality does not shift like mine, yet you would not apply the same logic you apply to Arabs to Americans.

I live in fear, yet you advocate bombing anything that MIGHT become dangerous because of the US constantly bombing people.

Austria was part of the third German empire and the Nazis were really bad.

Also the US have a very big Army, which is a strange point, given that you do not believe in moral relativism and might makes right is moral relativism, except if you accept that Bin Laden had every right to fly those planes into those towers because he could.

If you look at your posts you should see for yourself that your arguments are astonishingly weak.

[/quote]
My arguments are weak? Son read your post. You said nothing and misused the basic terms in your argument. Psuedo Illectual humor I suppose, it’s lost on the iternet but keep up the good work. Your a good Sunday morning chuckle and easily dismissed. And by the way most of your simplistic biased posts are astonishingly silly.

76

[quote]orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Would that be to much to ask from the land of the “free” and home of the “brave”?

…and your politicians are, lets face it, spineless cowards.

Thank you for making your antipathy toward me, my nation and its citizens so crystal clear. It is now obvious to me that talking to you is the equivalent of pissing into the wind. You are about as objective as your good friend Osama at a Catholic church service, and as integrity-challenged as your Swedish buddy.

I won’t waste any more of my time on you. Unlike you children, we adults have families and other responsibilities to take care of. Feel free to carry on telling the world how terrible the US is. I mean, really, who gives a fuck what some dumb Austrian thinks anyway?

PS Hiel Hitler!

I have answered your questions.

Won`t you answer mine?

I had only one.

If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in their name and yet cannot or will not be bothered to stop “the government of the people, by the people, for the people” from doing that, are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.[/quote]

No fake outrage dumbfuck. It’s not ok to target civilians. We don’t. The terrorist do. If no one accepts your fake argument why argue the point with you. Pretty basic numbnuts.

Why would we want to stop killing terrorists?

77

ahm:

7.400 civilians died only during “shock and awe” ( http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ )

78

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Oh come on silly. Your ancestors killed a lot more civilians intentionally then the US ever did by accident.

My morals never shift unlike yours. I also don’t live in constant fear like you do. Same rules for everyone. Don’t start a fight you can’t finish. The weaker side doesn’t set the rules.

Find a way to live in peace with the great satan, avoid the great satan, ignore the great satan, but don’t ever fuck with the great satan because the great satan will respond the way it wants to, not the way the perpetually outrages expect it to. It’s simple. Your dim and don’t understand it but rational people do.

You want to take a shot at some Americans, like I said, convince your government to do so. I’m sure we would deal with it, same as the US will deal with any attack upon it’s citizens. But for now you’ll just have to continue whining on the internet.

So to sum your posts up:

Your morality does not shift like mine, yet you would not apply the same logic you apply to Arabs to Americans.

I live in fear, yet you advocate bombing anything that MIGHT become dangerous because of the US constantly bombing people.

Austria was part of the third German empire and the Nazis were really bad.

Also the US have a very big Army, which is a strange point, given that you do not believe in moral relativism and might makes right is moral relativism, except if you accept that Bin Laden had every right to fly those planes into those towers because he could.

If you look at your posts you should see for yourself that your arguments are astonishingly weak.

My arguments are weak? Son read your post. You said nothing and misused the basic terms in your argument. Psuedo Illectual humor I suppose, it’s lost on the iternet but keep up the good work. Your a good Sunday morning chuckle and easily dismissed. And by the way most of your simplistic biased posts are astonishingly silly.

[/quote]

If you ever took the time to show me how, when and where I go wrong instead of mock outrage and accusations drawnout of thin air your post might have some weight.

As it is, it dosn´t .

79

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Would that be to much to ask from the land of the “free” and home of the “brave”?

…and your politicians are, lets face it, spineless cowards.

Thank you for making your antipathy toward me, my nation and its citizens so crystal clear. It is now obvious to me that talking to you is the equivalent of pissing into the wind. You are about as objective as your good friend Osama at a Catholic church service, and as integrity-challenged as your Swedish buddy.

I won’t waste any more of my time on you. Unlike you children, we adults have families and other responsibilities to take care of. Feel free to carry on telling the world how terrible the US is. I mean, really, who gives a fuck what some dumb Austrian thinks anyway?

PS Hiel Hitler!

I have answered your questions.

Won`t you answer mine?

I had only one.

If Americans finance the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in their name and yet cannot or will not be bothered to stop “the government of the people, by the people, for the people” from doing that, are they not legitimate targets if we apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

And please no more fake outrage from you or Hedo, it has become obvious that you are dodging the question.

No fake outrage dumbfuck. It’s not ok to target civilians. We don’t. The terrorist do. If no one accepts your fake argument why argue the point with you. Pretty basic numbnuts.

Why would we want to stop killing terrorists?

[/quote]

Because the way you go about it you kill innocent people, if you “target” them or not.

Maybe I do not have your cavalier attitude when it comes to “collateral” damage.

80

[quote]Mishima wrote:
ahm:

7.400 civilians died only during “shock and awe” ( http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ )
[/quote]

I am refering to the Lancet study and the cost of life because of the embargo.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0127-23.htm

and of course the study itself:

http://www.zmag.org/lancet.pdf

PLease note that this is the 2003 original version, obviously the numbers have gone up since then.