Flypaper Theory

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
42

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
As to cluster bombs even someone like yourself, head firmly buried in the sand, realizes the US doesn’t use them against civilian targets.

Try and keep up. The link is dated in 2004.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0415-13.htm

More importantly, the US was cheering up as Israelis dropped cluster bombs on civilians in Lebanon last year.

Silly even by your low standards.

The rag you linked to was an editorialized version of a news story that was devoid of fact. Common in the ME as you are well aware.

Curiosuly where were the pictures of Americans cheering. Your still a fool.

So maybe they do not cheer.

Mostly they do not know and they do not care.

And yet they finance the giant war machine that lays waste to other peoples countries.

If it is fair to go after the sponsors of terrorists to cut of their funding, are American civilians also fair game?

What if those American civilians sit in the symbolical if not actual heart of the financial community that finances said war machine, are they legitimate targets?

Want to make the residents of NYC a target again? I suspect that is how you feel. Go right ahead. Don’t be suprised at what happens next.

I know it is difficult for you but the response was the US doesn’t use cluster bombs on civilians and doesn’t support the use of landmines that are persistent. Your la la response is amusing but not to the point.

The rag that your buddy linked to was a deflection. You bought it but you are gullible. Most see thru things like that.

By the way how is the Styer production run going on the 800 50 cal. sniper rifles you sold to Iran?

First, those weapons never were in Iraq.

The 200000 weapons your army “lost”, plus the Iraq army stockpiles you failed to secure provided all the weapons the insurgents will ever need.

800 rifles?

Please…

Then, those Palestinians may dance in the streets, but yet they cannot finance terror in any significant way because they are dirt poor.

Maybe, just maybe, they blow themselves up occasionnaly…

Yet, on the other hand we have the people of the US that may not dance in the streets and yet pay for the measures that killed around 500000 Iraqui children, in part by destroying all sanitary installations and blocked the import of water purification devices and chemicals.

Would you rather have a child die because of a bomb or slowly because of poisonded water?

Now tell me, what do we do with people who finance such atrocities casually, without even noticing it and having no bigger sorrows than who will win American Idol?

Are they legitimate targets, if we apply the standard the US applies to the world?

Am I anti-American for asking such a question?

Is Lixy when he challenges the nation that American lives are worth more than Arabs lives, at a ratio of about 1:3000?

By the way, around 1 000 000 dead equals around one 9-11.

Every day.

For about 10 years.

Blah Blah Blah. More of the same from the multicultural first. always and forever crowd.

Don’t want to get your ass kicked. Stop fucking with the Great Satan. If the radical Islamists learn that one lesson then it is worth it. And stop with the made up numbers. The Lancet study is nothing more then wishy washy propaganda that anyone with half a brain, and a basic understanding of statistics, saw right thru.

So how many innocents have the Iranians killed with your sniper rifles moral relativist?

[/quote]

The Lancet studies methodology is universally accepted-

Even by the US goverment as long as it concerns no hot button issue.

I am not even going into the numbers made up by the US government…

(Mmmmhhm, at what angle did the bullet hit him? Must have been suicide!)

As for the rest, are US citizens legitimate targets when you apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

43

[quote]Chushin wrote:
You know, I’ve got to say, it’s getting a little tiresome to see a couple of anti-American, holier-than-thou, know-it-all critics go on and on (via what is essentially an American forum!) about how the US is somehow uniquely and thoroughly perverted and evil.

My first reaction is to say, “If you hate us so much, get the fuck off our forum and go find somebody who agrees with you.” But that’s probably not the best way to react to your vitriol.

It certainly is easy (and these days, quite popular) to blame all of the world’s ills on the US. But what about your country (or ethnic group, or religion or…). What evil have they perpetrated on the world?

Does Austria bear any guilt for today’s Palestinian problem? For either of the 2 WORLD wars? Has it committed any heinous acts in its history? Does Islam own any of the mind-boggling violence that goes on around the world today? Does it have it’s own history of “slaughter, conquer and empire?”

Do you have the integrity to answer honestly? I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this. Will you, like small children, say, “Yeah, but we’re not as bad as YOU are!” Or will you admit to your own shortcomings?

In any case, why don’t you just get the fuck off of our forum and go find somebody that agrees with your skewed perspective? :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Your forum?

44

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
As to cluster bombs even someone like yourself, head firmly buried in the sand, realizes the US doesn’t use them against civilian targets.

Try and keep up. The link is dated in 2004.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0415-13.htm

More importantly, the US was cheering up as Israelis dropped cluster bombs on civilians in Lebanon last year.

Silly even by your low standards.

The rag you linked to was an editorialized version of a news story that was devoid of fact. Common in the ME as you are well aware.

Curiosuly where were the pictures of Americans cheering. Your still a fool.

So maybe they do not cheer.

Mostly they do not know and they do not care.

And yet they finance the giant war machine that lays waste to other peoples countries.

If it is fair to go after the sponsors of terrorists to cut of their funding, are American civilians also fair game?

What if those American civilians sit in the symbolical if not actual heart of the financial community that finances said war machine, are they legitimate targets?

Want to make the residents of NYC a target again? I suspect that is how you feel. Go right ahead. Don’t be suprised at what happens next.

I know it is difficult for you but the response was the US doesn’t use cluster bombs on civilians and doesn’t support the use of landmines that are persistent. Your la la response is amusing but not to the point.

The rag that your buddy linked to was a deflection. You bought it but you are gullible. Most see thru things like that.

By the way how is the Styer production run going on the 800 50 cal. sniper rifles you sold to Iran?

First, those weapons never were in Iraq.

The 200000 weapons your army “lost”, plus the Iraq army stockpiles you failed to secure provided all the weapons the insurgents will ever need.

800 rifles?

Please…

Then, those Palestinians may dance in the streets, but yet they cannot finance terror in any significant way because they are dirt poor.

Maybe, just maybe, they blow themselves up occasionnaly…

Yet, on the other hand we have the people of the US that may not dance in the streets and yet pay for the measures that killed around 500000 Iraqui children, in part by destroying all sanitary installations and blocked the import of water purification devices and chemicals.

Would you rather have a child die because of a bomb or slowly because of poisonded water?

Now tell me, what do we do with people who finance such atrocities casually, without even noticing it and having no bigger sorrows than who will win American Idol?

Are they legitimate targets, if we apply the standard the US applies to the world?

Am I anti-American for asking such a question?

Is Lixy when he challenges the nation that American lives are worth more than Arabs lives, at a ratio of about 1:3000?

By the way, around 1 000 000 dead equals around one 9-11.

Every day.

For about 10 years.

Blah Blah Blah. More of the same from the multicultural first. always and forever crowd.

Don’t want to get your ass kicked. Stop fucking with the Great Satan. If the radical Islamists learn that one lesson then it is worth it. And stop with the made up numbers. The Lancet study is nothing more then wishy washy propaganda that anyone with half a brain, and a basic understanding of statistics, saw right thru.

So how many innocents have the Iranians killed with your sniper rifles moral relativist?

The Lancet studies methodology is universally accepted-

Even by the US goverment as long as it concerns no hot button issue.

I am not even going into the numbers made up by the US government…

(Mmmmhhm, at what angle did the bullet hit him? Must have been suicide!)

As for the rest, are US citizens legitimate targets when you apply the same standards the US applies to the world?

[/quote]

It’s not universally accepted.

The US Government is not making the numbers up.

You make up far more numbers to justify your opinions.

U.S. Citizens are not legitimate targets of terrorism. No citizens are legitimate targets of terrorism. Your fucked up argument is silly and ridiculous. We don’t target civilians in Iraq which makes your point moot. However the U.S. has the ability to fight back when attacked. Minor nations such as Austria can only appease and call for help.

However if you can convince your nation to attack the U.S. over say not being alarmist enough about global warming…I’m sure we would repay the favor in turn.

45

[quote]orion wrote:
…The Lancet studies methodology is universally accepted-

…

[/quote]

The methodology is accepted even though the numbers are bogus. Funny that.

46

[quote]hedo wrote:
However the U.S. has the ability to fight back when attacked.
[/quote]

Everybody has the ability to fight back when attacked.

A more accurate statement would be: The US has the habit of bombing and invading countries even when not attacked.

47

[quote]hedo wrote:

It’s not universally accepted.

The US Government is not making the numbers up.

You make up far more numbers to justify your opinions.

U.S. Citizens are not legitimate targets of terrorism. No citizens are legitimate targets of terrorism. Your fucked up argument is silly and ridiculous. We don’t target civilians in Iraq which makes your point moot. However the U.S. has the ability to fight back when attacked. Minor nations such as Austria can only appease and call for help.

However if you can convince your nation to attack the U.S. over say not being alarmist enough about global warming…I’m sure we would repay the favor in turn.
[/quote]

No, the US government never, ever doctors statistics.

And I do know that because their economic statistics are the most reliable and sound EVER.

That was, of course, sarcasm.

And no, the US does not TARGET civilians, it just KILLS more than all 20th century terrorist organisations combined.

And US citizens sponsor it and they even get to elect their leaders.

Sort of.

So how is it that US citizens share no responsibility for what is done in their name with their money?

And why are they not legitimate targets if they do have a responsibilty to keep their government in check?

I just want someone who does not believe in moral relativism and different rules for different people to explain that to me.

That should not be too hard, shouldn`t it?

48

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…The Lancet studies methodology is universally accepted-

…

The methodology is accepted even though the numbers are bogus. Funny that.[/quote]

It is the only scientific survey there is.

What else is there to work with instead of US propaganda?

Car bombs are traffic accidents, Sunni on Sunni violence does not really count as a war related death, if you becopme part of the satistic depends on where the bullet hits you and Eurasia has allways been at war with Oceania.

Brought to us by the WMDsmushroomcloudoverManhattanSaddamHussein9-11alQuaeda crowd.

49

[quote]orion wrote:
…

The methodology is accepted even though the numbers are bogus. Funny that.

It is the only scientific survey there is.

What else is there to work with instead of US propaganda?

Car bombs are traffic accidents, Sunni on Sunni violence does not really count as a war related death, if you becopme part of the satistic depends on where the bullet hits you and Eurasia has allways been at war with Oceania.

Brought to us by the WMDsmushroomcloudoverManhattanSaddamHussein9-11alQuaeda crowd.

[/quote]

I will grant you that the terrorists have killed a lot of people.

50

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

It’s not universally accepted.

The US Government is not making the numbers up.

You make up far more numbers to justify your opinions.

U.S. Citizens are not legitimate targets of terrorism. No citizens are legitimate targets of terrorism. Your fucked up argument is silly and ridiculous. We don’t target civilians in Iraq which makes your point moot. However the U.S. has the ability to fight back when attacked. Minor nations such as Austria can only appease and call for help.

However if you can convince your nation to attack the U.S. over say not being alarmist enough about global warming…I’m sure we would repay the favor in turn.

No, the US government never, ever doctors statistics.

And I do know that because their economic statistics are the most reliable and sound EVER.

That was, of course, sarcasm.

And no, the US does not TARGET civilians, it just KILLS more than all 20th century terrorist organisations combined.

And US citizens sponsor it and they even get to elect their leaders.

Sort of.

So how is it that US citizens share no responsibility for what is done in their name with their money?

And why are they not legitimate targets if they do have a responsibilty to keep their government in check?

I just want someone who does not believe in moral relativism and different rules for different people to explain that to me.

That should not be too hard, shouldn`t it?

[/quote]

Oh come on silly. Your ancestors killed a lot more civilians intentionally then the US ever did by accident.

My morals never shift unlike yours. I also don’t live in constant fear like you do. Same rules for everyone. Don’t start a fight you can’t finish. The weaker side doesn’t set the rules.

Find a way to live in peace with the great satan, avoid the great satan, ignore the great satan, but don’t ever fuck with the great satan because the great satan will respond the way it wants to, not the way the perpetually outrages expect it to. It’s simple. Your dim and don’t understand it but rational people do.

You want to take a shot at some Americans, like I said, convince your government to do so. I’m sure we would deal with it, same as the US will deal with any attack upon it’s citizens. But for now you’ll just have to continue whining on the internet.

53

[quote]orion wrote:

To your second point, if you are helpless to stop your government, what should the Iraquis have done?

[/quote]

Maybe start bombing China?

54

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Does Austria bear any guilt for today’s Palestinian problem? For either of the 2 WORLD wars? Has it committed any heinous acts in its history? [/quote]

Good point. The Nazi’s extermination of the Jews drove most of the survivors to re-settle in Palestine. I think there should be a lot of blame pointed there.

55

[quote]orion wrote:

orion wrote:

What if those American civilians sit in the symbolical if not actual heart of the financial community that finances said war machine, are they legitimate targets?

Gkhan wrote:
Thanks for driving home Bin Laden’s reasoning for targeting civilians. Would it be fair to have you or your family killed for paying your taxes? What would you have us do? Not pay?
orion wrote:

�?f course this is part of the terrorists reasoning.
[/quote]

Well what the hell? They can justify killing us because we pay taxes? It’s like justifying killing them because they have oil.

56

[quote]hedo wrote:

Oh come on silly. Your ancestors killed a lot more civilians intentionally then the US ever did by accident.

My morals never shift unlike yours. I also don’t live in constant fear like you do. Same rules for everyone. Don’t start a fight you can’t finish. The weaker side doesn’t set the rules.

Find a way to live in peace with the great satan, avoid the great satan, ignore the great satan, but don’t ever fuck with the great satan because the great satan will respond the way it wants to, not the way the perpetually outrages expect it to. It’s simple. Your dim and don’t understand it but rational people do.

You want to take a shot at some Americans, like I said, convince your government to do so. I’m sure we would deal with it, same as the US will deal with any attack upon it’s citizens. But for now you’ll just have to continue whining on the internet.
[/quote]

So to sum your posts up:

Your morality does not shift like mine, yet you would not apply the same logic you apply to Arabs to Americans.

I live in fear, yet you advocate bombing anything that MIGHT become dangerous because of the US constantly bombing people.

Austria was part of the third German empire and the Nazis were really bad.

Also the US have a very big Army, which is a strange point, given that you do not believe in moral relativism and might makes right is moral relativism, except if you accept that Bin Laden had every right to fly those planes into those towers because he could.

If you look at your posts you should see for yourself that your arguments are astonishingly weak.

57

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

So how is it that US citizens share no responsibility for what is done in their name with their money?

And why are they not legitimate targets if they do have a responsibilty to keep their government in check?

Un-freak’n believable!!! You can’t possibly be this simple-minded.

It’s a DEMOCRACY, genius. What about those citizens who are working AGAINST whatever behavior you happen to be opposed to? Are they “legitimate targets,” too? Are the children and infants who have no political voice “legitimate targets?” What about, for example, the Muslims who were melted on 9/11? “Legitimate targets?”

For god’s sake, what a STUPID freak’n post!

[/quote]

So any kind of resistance would be out of the question?

Maybe a tax boycott to stop the killing in your name? To send your government the message that causing the death of 500000 children is not worth it?

Would that be to much to ask from the land of the “free” and home of the “brave”?

58

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
You know, I’ve got to say, it’s getting a little tiresome to see a couple of anti-American, holier-than-thou, know-it-all critics go on and on (via what is essentially an American forum!) about how the US is somehow uniquely and thoroughly perverted and evil.

My first reaction is to say, “If you hate us so much, get the fuck off our forum and go find somebody who agrees with you.” But that’s probably not the best way to react to your vitriol.

It certainly is easy (and these days, quite popular) to blame all of the world’s ills on the US. But what about your country (or ethnic group, or religion or…). What evil have they perpetrated on the world?

Does Austria bear any guilt for today’s Palestinian problem? For either of the 2 WORLD wars? Has it committed any heinous acts in its history? Does Islam own any of the mind-boggling violence that goes on around the world today? Does it have it’s own history of “slaughter, conquer and empire?”

Do you have the integrity to answer honestly? I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this. Will you, like small children, say, “Yeah, but we’re not as bad as YOU are!” Or will you admit to your own shortcomings?

In any case, why don’t you just get the fuck off of our forum and go find somebody that agrees with your skewed perspective? :slight_smile:

Your forum?

THAT’S your answer? Seriously, THAT’S all you have to say?

“Your forum?” Brought to you by the good folks whose most important contribution to world history is Adolph Hitler. But hey, don’t sweat it. If everyone just forgets that fact, you can act like the US invented and has a patent on evil.

I was really hoping to hear your thoughts on my questions. Oh well…

PS Given the huge amount of money you spend on Biotest products, we all hate to think what would happen to our forum if you went away. Oh wait…

[/quote]

To answer your questions:

All evil is Americas fault:

No. But if you invade a country twice and cause a huge amount of death it is hard not to see a certain connection. Also building bases on what they consider their holy lands was probably stupid and, given the US military technology, unnecessary.

Does Austria bear any guilt for Palestinians problems:

Insofar as we were part of Germany and caused lots of Jews to run for their life, yes. However those Jews tried to flee to wherever they could and noone would take them, not Switzerland, not the US, and not Latin America.

We also share some guilt because we accept things from Israel we would not accept from any other civilized country because of a feeling of guilt, which is more or less true for the whole EU.

For either of the 2 WORLD wars? Has it committed any heinous acts in its history? Does Islam own any of the mind-boggling violence that goes on around the world today? Does it have it’s own history of “slaughter, conquer and empire?”

Yes, yes, yes and yes.

Somewhere in your city someone is raping a 4 year old.

Does that give you any authority to do the same? And, what is equally important, would it advance your agenda to do the same?

59

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…

The methodology is accepted even though the numbers are bogus. Funny that.

It is the only scientific survey there is.

What else is there to work with instead of US propaganda?

Car bombs are traffic accidents, Sunni on Sunni violence does not really count as a war related death, if you becopme part of the satistic depends on where the bullet hits you and Eurasia has allways been at war with Oceania.

Brought to us by the WMDsmushroomcloudoverManhattanSaddamHussein9-11alQuaeda crowd.

I will grant you that the terrorists have killed a lot of people.[/quote]

What you call a terrorist is another persons freedom fighter and so on.

Now to your point.

According to Lancet the death rate rose from 5.5 per 100000 to around 13 perer 100000 after the invasion.

So the US created an environment where death rates more than doubled.

Is it fair to say that according to your logic people are not really killed by car bombs when thy aree ultimately killed by flying metal pieces and collapsing walls even though the car bomb created those very conditions?