FLOTUS: Drink More Water

Varqanir · September 19, 2013, 5:01pm

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
What costs us more? Someone incarcerated or someone on welfare? [/quote]

The inmate costs the state more, but only by a little bit.

In California, average cost of upkeep per inmate runs about $42,000 a year. California welfare benefits average out at around $37,000 per person. Obviously there are offsets in both cases: the person on welfare still pays a portion of his or her benefit in taxes on the non-food items purchased. And the inmate’s labor offsets the expenditures a great deal. If you were to calculate the value of prison labor by multiplying the hours worked hoeing fields, breaking rocks, making license plates, answering corporate customer service lines etc. by the prevalent minimum wage, that $42,000 figure would likely dwindle a great deal below the total for welfare recipients.

Also take into account the increasing trend of privatisation of prisons: they do receive federal and state subsidies, but are run for profit by exploiting prison labor. Exactly as if a Southern plantation with African slaves picking tobacco and cotton received federal subsidies. And “exactly as if” is a redundant phrase, inasmuch as many private prisons in the south use black inmates (legally slaves under the 14th amendment) as laborers on prison farms.

pittbulll · September 19, 2013, 5:06pm

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
What costs us more? Someone incarcerated or someone on welfare? [/quote]

The inmate costs the state more, but only by a little bit.

In California, average cost of upkeep per inmate runs about $42,000 a year. California welfare benefits average out at around $37,000 per person. Obviously there are offsets in both cases: the person on welfare still pays a portion of his or her benefit in taxes on the non-food items purchased. And the inmate’s labor offsets the expenditures a great deal. If you were to calculate the value of prison labor by multiplying the hours worked hoeing fields, breaking rocks, making license plates, answering corporate customer service lines etc. by the prevalent minimum wage, that $42,000 figure would likely dwindle a great deal below the total for welfare recipients.

Also take into account the increasing trend of privatisation of prisons: they do receive federal and state subsidies, but are run for profit by exploiting prison labor. Exactly as if a Southern plantation with African slaves picking tobacco and cotton received federal subsidies. And “exactly as if” is a redundant phrase, inasmuch as many private prisons in the south use black inmates (legally slaves under the 14th amendment) as laborers on prison farms.

[/quote]

just curios where you got your info and I am sure some states like AZ are far below Cali. Cali is probably the closest thin the US has to EU

Varqanir · September 19, 2013, 5:20pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

just curios where you got your info and I am sure some states like AZ are far below Cali. Cali is probably the closest thin the US has to EU
[/quote]

From the California Legislative Analyst’s Office website http://www.lao.ca.gov/ , from an article in Forbes, On Labor Day 2013, Welfare Pays More Than Minimum-Wage Work In 35 States , where the above chart came from, and from the following document http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/jailbreaks.pdf which talks about subsidies for private prisons.

Check out Hawaii and some northeastern states. California is not the biggest teat on the national hog by any means.

pittbulll · September 19, 2013, 5:19pm

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

just curios where you got your info and I am sure some states like AZ are far below Cali. Cali is probably the closest thin the US has to EU
[/quote]

From the California Legislative Analyst’s Office website http://www.lao.ca.gov/ , from an article in Forbes, On Labor Day 2013, Welfare Pays More Than Minimum-Wage Work In 35 States , where the above chart came from, and from the following document http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/jailbreaks.pdf which talks about subsidies for private prisons. [/quote]

thanks , good info what about prison costs ? I bet they are more unversal

Varqanir · September 19, 2013, 5:23pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

just curios where you got your info and I am sure some states like AZ are far below Cali. Cali is probably the closest thin the US has to EU
[/quote]

From the California Legislative Analyst’s Office website http://www.lao.ca.gov/ , from an article in Forbes, On Labor Day 2013, Welfare Pays More Than Minimum-Wage Work In 35 States , where the above chart came from, and from the following document http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/jailbreaks.pdf which talks about subsidies for private prisons. [/quote]

thanks , good info what about prison costs ? I bet they are more unversal [/quote]

Dunno. Only checked California, but it stands to reason that California’s staggeringly overcrowded prison population means that they actually can get by spending less per inmate than some other states.

Varqanir · September 19, 2013, 5:31pm

I just want to post this image one more time so that it’s easier to do a side by side comparison…

Varqanir · September 19, 2013, 5:34pm

…with this one. Draw your own conclusions. They may not be the ones you expected.

MaximusB · September 19, 2013, 6:09pm

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

just curios where you got your info and I am sure some states like AZ are far below Cali. Cali is probably the closest thin the US has to EU
[/quote]

From the California Legislative Analyst’s Office website http://www.lao.ca.gov/ , from an article in Forbes, On Labor Day 2013, Welfare Pays More Than Minimum-Wage Work In 35 States , where the above chart came from, and from the following document http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/jailbreaks.pdf which talks about subsidies for private prisons. [/quote]

thanks , good info what about prison costs ? I bet they are more unversal [/quote]

Dunno. Only checked California, but it stands to reason that California’s staggeringly overcrowded prison population means that they actually can get by spending less per inmate than some other states.
[/quote]

Incorrect.

With the exception of NY (I think), California spends more per inmate than any state in the nation. In comparison with Texas (I use this because it’s the only state comparable in population), California spends 3 times the cost that Texas does per inmate.

However, spending per inmate has soared from $33,000 in 1995 to $60,000 today, an 82.3 percent increase accounting for inflation. By comparison, K-12 spending has increased only 17.9% since 1995 with inflation adjustments. That means spending on current prisoners has risen five times faster than spending on students.

http://ivn.us/2013/08/12/ca-prison-problems-preventable-with-regular-investment-in-upkeep/

This can be attributed to the obscene perks given to the prison guards Union.

pittbulll · September 19, 2013, 6:35pm

I doubt that surveillance or prosecution factored in either

Varqanir · September 19, 2013, 6:56pm

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

Incorrect.

With the exception of NY (I think), California spends more per inmate than any state in the nation. In comparison with Texas (I use this because it’s the only state comparable in population), California spends 3 times the cost that Texas does.
[/quote]

Incorrect.

It’s more like 2.2 times, and California is fifth in the nation for prison costs, not second.

Texas: 21,390
Minnesota: 41,364
Pennsylvania: 42,339
Vermont: 44,502
Maine: 46,404
Washington: 46,897
California: 47,421
Rhode Island: 49,133
Connecticut: 50,264
New Jersey: 54,865
New York: 60,076

http://www.vera.org/sites/default/files/resources/downloads/the-price-of-prisons-40-fact-sheets-updated-072012.pdf

MaximusB · September 19, 2013, 11:16pm

Varq,

We spend $60k per year today in 2013. I am not sure if your link is a few years old.

angry_chicken · September 19, 2013, 11:46pm

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m happy that you had a father to provide you with good advice and were raised not to hurt people and to view criminals as losers and scum. I was raised by losers and scum. I was raised to steal food while my brother made a distraction. I grew up in Baltimore City in the 70’s. My mother was a whore and my father and I didn’t have much contact until I was in my 20’s. My mother married a series of dysfunctional men who physically abused my brother and I. And I’m not talking about spankings, my first stepfather broke my ribs and punctured my lung (when I was 6), and my second stepfather whipped me with extension cords while reading me scripture. I tried to kill myself when I was eight. My third stepfather kicked me out of the house when I was sixteen and I did what I had to do to survive on the street. I don’t speak to either of my parents anymore. So count yourself lucky that your father guided you in a positive direction. I was not so lucky. That doesn’t make me a loser or scum, by the way - and many of the “choises” that you attribute to me, were made for me. But whatever, I hope your smug feeling of superiority keeps you warm at night. I made the best of bad situation and I have no regrets about my life.

[/quote]
And maybe, just maybe, those people on welfare are/were in a similar situation growing up. I don’t think anyone is born with a welfare gene just as I don’t believe you were born with a felon gene. [/quote]

Thank you, for that. Now we are VERY close to common ground, so bear with me for just one more round of interaction.

I am ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that many people on welfare grew up in similar situations as I did. Or worse, even. But if I can find a way to educate my self and find a good job, ANYONE CAN. Especially if they grew up like that! They’ve dealt with adversity. They’ve survived challenges. If ONLY they would channel that energy and experience into improving themselves and their circumstance they could accomplish ANYTHING! The amount of energy they expend “getting over on the man” could be spent learning a trade, or getting a college degree, or SOMETHING other than sitting at home collecting a check. It’s a lack of motivation that is the problem.

When the state “enables” them to just stay “stuck”, then there is no incentive for them to evolve. They are given JUUUUUUUST enough to get by. And if they actually DO get work, then the “safety net” they are used to depending on is taken away. They lose their free housing. They are no longer eligible for food stamps. They become “the working poor” until they can climb out of that scenario.

So what motivation is there for someone who gets a check from the govt for enough to get by to go out and get a job, work, deal with the stresses of child care and transportation, to only make the EXACT same thing - just making enough to get by? Why on earth would any rational person decide to get OFF of welfare?

THEY DON’T. That’s why there are so many people on welfare. That’s why they have to be FORCED off. Because no one in their right mind would willingly just say, “ya know, I think I’ve had enough of all this free stuff, I’m going to triple my stress load and lower my standard of living and hope for the best”.

Now I’m not saying just stop printing the checks. I would be VERY interested in a temporary INCREASE in spending to fund some kind of “wellfare to work” program, so long as it were for just a few years and the the goal was to phase all but the most extremly disadvantaged people off of government assistance.

I would also be open to a subsidized day care program where low income people with children who WANT to work, could have a safe place for their kids while they earned a living. Again, I’m all about EMPOWERING people to do for themselves, not punishing them for their lot in life.

This is the land of opportunity. I know MANY immigrants who have come to this country with NOTHING - not even speaking the language - and ten years later own houses and have nice jobs. Often times with large families and supporting relatives in a different country.

Why can’t AMERICAN CITIZENS do that?

Quasi_Tech · September 20, 2013, 12:19am

Americans have lost our work ethic AC, that’s why. In general, not totally. There are still some hard-working folks, at all levels. There just aren’t enough. I don’t know if its the parents to blame, education, or fast food and technology, but something is to blame - or a conglomeration of many things (most likely).

Varqanir · September 20, 2013, 12:25am

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Varq,

We spend $60k per year today in 2013. I am not sure if your link is a few years old. [/quote]

Yeah, you know, I checked again, and even though the document said 2012, it turns out that the data is from fiscal 2010, so mea culpa.

I’m sure the other states have increased spending as well in the intervening years due to increased incarceration rates and inflation, but this is only speculation. It would also be interesting to adjust those 2010 figures for inflation: $47,420 in 2010 dollars is the equivalent of 50,860 today.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the 60 thousand per inmate figure might not represent as large an increase in actual spending as the numbers suggest. Remember that in 2011 about 27 percent of the state inmates were transferred to county institutions by federal court order because of overcrowding. So total spending may not have increased so dramatically, but dividing the number by a fewer number of state prisoners yields a much higher number than it used to.

Which is handy when you have to write an article showing that state spending on prisoners is outstripping spending on schoolchildren.

NickViar · September 20, 2013, 12:26am

[quote]Testy1 wrote:
If you remove the / from the first set of brackets in each quote it should work. You are essentially saying “end quote” at the beginning of each quote.[/quote]

Thanks for the help.

MaximusB · September 20, 2013, 1:52am

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Varq,

We spend $60k per year today in 2013. I am not sure if your link is a few years old. [/quote]

Yeah, you know, I checked again, and even though the document said 2012, it turns out that the data is from fiscal 2010, so mea culpa.

I’m sure the other states have increased spending as well in the intervening years due to increased incarceration rates and inflation, but this is only speculation. It would also be interesting to adjust those 2010 figures for inflation: $47,420 in 2010 dollars is the equivalent of 50,860 today.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the 60 thousand per inmate figure might not represent as large an increase in actual spending as the numbers suggest. Remember that in 2011 about 27 percent of the state inmates were transferred to county institutions by federal court order because of overcrowding. So total spending may not have increased so dramatically, but dividing the number by a fewer number of state prisoners yields a much higher number than it used to.

Which is handy when you have to write an article showing that state spending on prisoners is outstripping spending on schoolchildren.
[/quote]

The main reason we spend more is the prison guard Union here, it’s one of the most powerful Unions in the state.

Why we spend 2.5 times as much as Texas does is beyond me. We are now letting out criminals (I am not talking about low-level guys, but now it’s sex offenders and guys with assault), because we will not build more prisons. These legislators are hell bent on rehabilitation, which does not work the very large majority of the time.

NickViar · September 20, 2013, 1:53am

AC is an adult and can defend himself, but much of what you said makes no sense.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Apologize? You displayed a very condescending attitude about those on public assistance as if you are somehow superior. [/quote]
-AC was most likely not voting while receiving his “government assistance.”

[quote]
If anything someone like you should sympathize. You didn’t trun your life around by your own force of will and inner strength. It took a govt subsidized moment of enlightenment to inspire your change. Maybe you saw the light when you dropped the soap in the shower, I don’t know. [/quote]
-I think I’ve heard a line about people not doing things by themselves before. What you’ve said here is no different than saying, “You didn’t raise yourself up from your impoverished upbringing by your own force of will and inner strength. It took a government school to hand you that diploma,” or, “You didn’t maintain that 4.0 GPA on your own. Your genes played a role.” There is nothing that can’t be twisted to attribute to someone else.

[quote]
What I do know is that you seem to want some pat on the back or validation. For what? For doing the right thing which you should have been doing your whole life? It took tax payer money to give you the kick in the ass you needed. It took tax payer money to give you a second chance.

Instead of putting other people down you should be thankful you live in a country that lifted you up when you were unable to do it yourself. You got your chunk of govt cheese and now you want them to close the deli. [/quote]
-No, it didn’t take taxpayer money to give AC a second chance. Were it not for that money, he would either have been killed by the victim of what he did, or received no punishment(or any number of things, I guess).

AC was not “unable to do it” himself. He committed a crime and was punished(maybe not the best way to punish people-but that’s not what we’re talking about)

[quote]
I have never been arrested, let alone committed a felony. I was raised to view criminals as losers and scum. When I was a kid in Sicily I asked my father what the mafia was. He said it was a bunch of people who didn’t want to work. I didn’t make the same choices you did growing up and so I never needed to turn my life around as drastically as you.

Does that mean I should get congratulated? I don’t know why you did what you did. I know you mentioned it here before but I don’t recall the details. All I know is that I was raised to respect people and the laws. I was raised to not steal or hurt people. I was raised to believe that my actions reflected upon my family. [/quote]
-I was raised in a similar way as you. It does not mean you should get congratulated. AC does not need to be congratulated. Everybody needs to worry about themselves.

[quote]
Maybe your circumstances were different growing up. Maybe you were just a scumbag. The thing is, I don’t judge you as a person because I don’t know your whole story. Felon doesn’t tell me who you are inside, only what you did. I don’t believe you don’t deserve to live. I’m glad you live in a country that provided you with a second chance. [/quote]
-The country did not provide him with a second chance. He served the sentence deemed appropriate for his crime. He traded the amount of freedom deemed equivalent to his crime.

[quote]
I just don’t see how someone like you can be so judgmental and even hostile toward people who are just like you were. They may even be better as they are not necessarily felons. I don’t look down on you or those who you look down on even though I was never as low as you or they.[/quote]
-They are not just like him. AC did not ask the government to commit his crime for him. He did it himself and served his sentence. Those on welfare pay the government to steal others’ money. They do not lose their vote. They do not lose their right to own weapons. They DO NOT have to cease their theft.

[quote]
Is this better? Or should I be afraid of your internet wrath coming to get me? About that apology: I am sorry that your time spent wallowing on the lowest rungs of society and your (govt forced) transformation into a productive citizen didn’t give you a sense of humility but rather one of superiority. [/quote]
-The government did not force him to change. He did that himself.

MaximusB · September 20, 2013, 1:55am

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

You are not cool enough to refer to yourself in the 3rd person.

[/quote]
Yes, I am. A minchione like you wouldn’t recognize that. [/quote]

Minchione ? I am not Southern Italian or Sicilian.

I might let you call me a coglionazzo, if you behave. [/quote]
Exactly. That’s why tu sei un minchione. [/quote]

I do not know you well enough to call me a name like that, stai attento stronzo.

pittbulll · September 20, 2013, 2:52am

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Americans have lost our work ethic AC, that’s why. In general, not totally. There are still some hard-working folks, at all levels. There just aren’t enough. I don’t know if its the parents to blame, education, or fast food and technology, but something is to blame - or a conglomeration of many things (most likely).[/quote]

right now you have more people than you have jobs , all competition is going to do is further devalue the cost of labor.

pittbulll · September 20, 2013, 2:53am

[quote]NickViar wrote:
AC is an adult and can defend himself, but much of what you said makes no sense.