Fixing The Race Thing

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]randman wrote:

Whoa, cowboy. Vicious personal attacks here. Fuck you too. My inability to grasp his simple points??? Why don’t you enlighten me what simple points I’m not grasping?[/quote]

Here, I’ll lay it out for you:

[quote]JJJJ: This thread was never designed to stand ACADEMIC scrutiny . . .

RANDMAN: Well, the backtracking continues. Now you can stand behind your arguments. Nice. [/quote]

This is an informal Internet forum with the goal of exchanging ideas, not writing rigorous proofs that will be pored over by others in the hopes of finding even one tiny hole which then invalidates every surrounding point. “Quick, look. He admitted that every word he types doesn’t have months of research to back it up. Clearly he has no ground to stand on.”

[quote]JJJJ: much less the obsessive scrutiny of some fruitcake.

RANDMAN: Do I need to define character assasination for you??? Obsessive scrutiny is exactly what your posts needed to pick apart your weak, opinionated ideas on race.[/quote]

So finding patterns in someone’s posting style constitutes evidence that their points are invalid? Because that’s the “obsessive scrutiny” that I’m sure he was referring to. That’s a very bizarre contention to say the least. But then, that’s “exactly what [his] posts needed.” I see, so it’s okay for YOU to throw the rules of debate out the window, just nobody else.

[quote]JJJJ: I believe I’ve been pretty clear in saying that I DON’T KNOW if it’s genetics, culture, economics, geography, history or whatever. But I don’t rule out ANY of them, including genetics.

RANDMAN: Wow, again your tune is changing quite a bit now. Before it was “black people” were violent. Now its people with certain genetics, culture, economics, geography, history and possibly skin color. It looks like you’ve seen the light at least from this last paragraph. [/quote]

Here’s a good example of your inability to grasp a very, VERY simple concept. He says he doesn’t claim to know why blacks in America are so violent, and you can’t understand that? How is this backpedaling? The point was always that black Americans are violent, and that fact was proven. As much as you’ve been conditioned to become offended after reading that sentence, it remains a fact. Look at the fucking statistics.

[quote]JJJJ: You’ve demanded “statistics” and I’ve given you simple numbers right out of the FBI criminal statistics. I’ve discussed murder and looked at MSAs and even compared two MSAs with roughly equal population and median income in response to someone else. I’ve also posted links to various other studies and an excellent book called THE BELL CURVE.

But no matter what evidence I show, you say it’s not enough.

RANDMAN: Because statistics, facts and evidence can’t be used interchangably. And all you’ve provided is statistics and then made fantastic leaps of logic to come to your conclusions. Your right. It hasn’t been nearly enough.[/quote]

The notion that blacks in this country are violent is the thesis. The statistics are evidence to support that thesis. Really, you don’t understand that? What “fantastic leaps of logic” are required to go from the statistic that 12% of our population is responsible for 50% of our murders to the conclusion that that 12% is disproportionately violent? That’s a big leap for you? What’s a little leap then? Does the 12% have to commit 100% of the murders for it to be a little leap?

[quote]JJJJ:2) Lynchings. Totally useless. Says nothing about the criminality of either race. All it says is that white people murdered 3500 blacks in the 80 years between the Civil War and World War 2. It tells us nothing about black crimes during this time nor about white criminal behavior.

RANDMAN: I gave you multiple statistics throughout time of the violent behavior of people who happened to be white; also included black lynchings, you just didn’t “think” or “research” the issue. You choose to ignore it because it conflicts with your hypothesis. These statistics are just as valid as the statistics you’ve provided. The only difference is I’m not going to make a ridiculous statement that white communities are more violent than other racial communities. [/quote]

So present the data. You want someone else to do your work for you? And even if you had data that showed whites lynched blacks more often than blacks lynched whites DURING THE SLAVE ERA, how does that prove anything? If you have a condition where blacks held white slaves during that same period and lynched them at a lower rate than the opposite, then we might be getting somewhere.

[quote]JJJJ:3) Hate crimes. You apparently didn’t know the difference between hate crime statistics and criminal statistics. Nor did you appear to know the uselessness of hate crime data.

RANDMAN: Oh, I know the difference. It was just to show you that your valuable FBI statistics are not as fool proof and solid as you think. Included in FBI statistics are hate crime statistics and regular violent crime statistics. You obviously missed that point entirely. Think!!! [/quote]

So you tried to show that the violent crime statistics given were faulty by proving that hate crime statistics were faulty? I don’t think so. You THOUGHT you were disproving the validity of the statistics you were shown, were embarrassed publicly when it came to light that you were debunking the wrong statistics, and now YOU’RE backpedaling to try and cover up that justifiably embarrassing mistake. Fine, but then don’t go calling the kettle black.

[quote]JJJJ: I’ve tried to be civil towards you and I realize that I’ve been a little sharp in some of my responses . . . so I apologized in public for my remarks.

RANDMAN: Puhleeze! You just called me a fruit cake three paragraphs ago. Apology not accepted.[/quote]

“Mommy, my vagina hurts. Can you rub my tummy?”

[quote]JJJJ: So feel free to continue your attacks, but as I told you before, you’re way out of your league.

RANDMAN: JJJJ strategy again. When he’s failing miserably in his arguments he’ll make statements like “your way out of your league” and “irrefutable” and “soldier” and “character assasination”.[/quote]

You appear to be out of your league to me. Your embarrassing attempts to show the fallibility of violent crime statistics by posting links to articles criticizing hate crime statistics is one example. Another is the fact that those very articles you referenced also happen to describe how black Americans commit far more hate crimes against whites than whites do against blacks. My, how humiliating that must have been for you. Did you not even bother to read that article?

By the way, calling someone a “fruitcake” and an “asshole” does not constitute character assassination. It’s merely a personal attack. Trying to prove that someone is racist in order to damage their credibility in a society that so frowns on racism is a much better example of character assassination. But of course no one here is guilty of that.

162

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
orion wrote:

Also, “violent behaviour” and being inherently “violent” is not the same, even though they seem to be in your head. If I put one and the same individual in different social settings it?s inherent agression won?t change, but the expression of that agression will change dramatically.

See, but I said no such thing, and never even implied the above in any way. Again, the problem we seem to be having is that people are conditioned to look for racism, and as such they find it all over the place, even when it’s not really there. The politically correct climate that we live in has led to this behavior. I know because I used to be that way myself when I was too young and too dumb to know any better. Now I do, and when I recognize that behavior in others, I call them on it.

I actually wrote what’s below, but since this is such a huge thread, you may have missed it. I’ll post it again since it’s relevant:

"It’s people on this site misinterpreting the phrase, ‘blacks are more violent’ to mean, ‘all black people are inherently violent due to some genetic inferiority’ that’s causing the confusion. I have seen no one state any such thing.

You can see the statistics. Explain how YOU think they are misleading.

Do you believe that all of those statistics that were collected by the FBI and the Census Bureau are absolutely useless and mean nothing? Do you actually think that is not of any significance that violent crimes are committed by one race at a rate hundreds of times that of another? You don’t think that’s indicative of a problem?"

So you see, you and I actually agree.[/quote]

Not quite.

I still have problems with " young, male, african americans allegedly commit a disproportiate number of violent crimes" and therefore “blacks are more violent”.

Young male austrian downhill skiers win the majority of world class downhill skiing tournaments, but that does not “mean austrians are better skiers”, because most of them aren?t.

Nobody argues with the observation per se, but the conclusions you draw from them are flawed and you think we are just playing with words to be PC.

If some jews make a lot of money, that does not mean “jews know how to deal with money”.

If some gay guys are good at designing fashion, that does not mean “gays are good fashion designers”

If some women decide to spread ?em for money, that does not mean “all women are whores”. (my apologies to real callgirls, I was thinking more about the marry-rich girls, not the ones that are so professional and honest to tell you the cost in advance :slight_smile: )

It?s not just a matter of phrasing it, it is the generalization that a) gives it a different meaning and b) makes it a racist comment, be that intentional or not.

163

[quote]randman wrote:
So what are you agreeing that his statistics lead to “blacks are more violent”.[/quote]

I believe the evidence bears that out. How that statement is racist is still beyond me. It’s a statement that describes the behavior of a segment of our population. Black leaders in American have ceded that point, so I don’t know why you’re clinging to it as if your very life depended on it.

Wow, that’s quite clever and original. You should really consider writing a sitcom.

Maybe I’m starting to see the problem here. “Blacks are more violent” is a vague statement, admittedly. Try this one on for size: “Blacks in America are responsible for a much larger portion of violent crime in America than should be expected by their proportion of the population.” Are you willing to concede that the above is true?

To me, the statement “Blacks in America are more violent than other races in America” easily follows, and I see nothing racist in that statement. It is a statement of fact, unless you don’t believe that committing 400% of the expected amount of violent crime by population justifies the description “violent”.

What DOES NOT follow is that “ALL blacks in America are violent” or “Blacks in America are BORN with a propensity for violence.” Those statements are not proven by the above statistics.

You know it’s bullshit because you’ve already decided it was bullshit? Or because you followed his reasoning and don’t believe it to be valid? Because I’ll be damned if it doesn’t sound like the former.

Who said I didn’t like it? You can call me names all you like. You apparantly think it makes you seem tough and like you don’t take any shit, but really you just come off as an insecure child. You’re anonymous to me, and I am to you. We will never meet face to face, so don’t put on any pretenses that you’re challenging me, because your slander is hollow and your baiting is a waste of effort.***

[quote]You’ve got to be kidding me. First of all, nobody appreciates your smug, self-righteous bullshit.

I guess now you’ve turned into the T-Nation spokesman.[/quote]

I see, so when I said, “nobody appreciates”, you took that to mean that I was trying to speak for EVERYONE in the world. Gee whiz, you got me. I don’t speak for the whole world. What I did was use a common expression to convey that you don’t speak for ME. What YOU did was to consider refraining from posting further for the good of T-Nation, but then made a point to clarify that you’ll be keeping your eye on JJJJ to “put him in his place”. My, how gallant of you! I can see how what I wrote is tantamount to your masturbatory, self-important vow to right wrongs on these forums.

No, I’m accusing you of being full of yourself and smugly trying to speak on behalf of others.

[quote]You don’t fucking speak for me so shut your fucking trap.

No one asked for your opinion, assmonkey, so just relax.[/quote]

That’s correct, no one did. And I don’t have to wait for someone to ask for it, either. That is the purpose of an Internet discussion forum.

See the comment above marked ***. I’m so very terrified of your badass attitude.

[quote]All this thread does is AGAIN prove my point that we’ve become so fucking backwards from politically correct BULLSHIT being shoveled down our fucking throats all the god damn time that it’s actually gotten to the point that it’s become “racist” to state a motherfucking FACT.

When you have something to add or actually debate then feel free. But your 3 year old rant here adds nothing but show your utter lack of emotional maturity.[/quote]

I’m debating. I don’t know what the hell you’re doing. Between patting yourself on the back and posturing from behind a keyboard in cyberspace, I see very little room for any debating on your part.

And in the middle of a hissy fit rant of your own, peppered with name-calling and petty posturing, you’re in a very odd position to be accusing others of emotional immaturity.

[quote]Here, I’ll sum it up for you. You can pretend not to understand it like you did every other decent point made on this thread that offends your politically correct sensibilities:

FACT: Blacks made up 12% of the U.S. population in 2000 (Source: U.S. Census)

FACT: Blacks constitute 50% of murder arrestees in 2002 (Source: FBI Crime Statistics).

FACT: Blacks constitute 36% of violent crime arrestees in the U.S. in 2002 (Source: FBI Crime Statistics).

This means THERE IS A PROBLEM IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES.

This means that BLACKS COMMITED THE MOST VIOLENT CRIMES IN THE UNITED STATES BY FAR in 2002.

Now if you want to say, in light of the above, that blacks in America do not appear to be “more violent” than whites, you can go right ahead. But please explain to us WHY you think that is the case, because it’s pretty damn clear to me that you would be wrong. For God’s sake, you’re describing behavior, not indicting blacks as somehow being genetically inferior.

Yeah, those are the statistics. And I have given multiple reasons why violent behavior happens (socioeconomic status, education level, population density, etc.) skin color ain’t one of them however.[/quote]

Unbelievable. What kind of lame ass empty bullshit is “skin color ain’t one of them?” Who here has ever argued that skin color causes violent behavior? This is the same misdirection bullshit that people have been pulling for this entire thread. You apparantly NEED to believe that this is the argument, because you don’t seem willing to argue anything else.

I didn’t ask for reasons why violent behavior happens. I asked, in light of the above statistics, how you can still argue that blacks are not more violent than other races in this country? That’s what the data shows. The data draws no conclusions. YOU’RE drawing the conclusions that you’re attempting to disprove. The data shows that the black “race” as it’s defined in these FBI studies is exceedingly more violent than other races. You and others seem unwilling to simply ADMIT that this is the case, so how can we or anyone in this country ever expect to move toward REMEDYING that problem, when we can’t even agree there is one?

I can’t believe that after all this bullshit, we’re back to where we started.

You and WMD should get together.

[quote]SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT IS RACIST TO REPEAT THE ABOVE FACTS?

Obviously you haven’t been reading that closely. It’s that reading comprehension thing again. Focus. Read. Comprehend. The racists statements start with “blacks are more violent” implying your skin color predisposes you to more violence and that is pure and utter bullshit.[/quote]

So the racist statements begin with that statement of fact. Speaking of the poor reading comprehension skills that you and others on this site are so quick to accuse others of, maybe you can tell me how the phrase “blacks are more violent” implies that skin color predisposes one to more violence? What you infer when you read a negative statement involving race is your own problem. That phrase contains no implications, only those that you’ve been conditioned to find.

[quote]For Christ’s sake, if you want to fix a problem, you have to first be willing to ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE PROBLEM IS THERE!

Rant over.

There are problems definitely. But not due to the “blackness” of the individual you damn fool. Rant over.[/quote]

Okay, so after all that, a quick, totally ambiguous concession with absolutely no meat on it (otherwise people might think you’re racist, by God), followed by one more quick personal attack for good measure.

Thank you for that lesson in debate. I learned so much.

164

[quote]JJJJ wrote:
WMD wrote:
////////////
JJJJ has been attempting to use statistics to support his position from the git-go. He very carefully picks and chooses (this would be manipulation, just to help your slow-witted self out) the data he presents to specifically “prove” blacks are inherently more violent than other races.
/////////////////////

WMD . . . put up or shut up.

If you feel like I am being selective in my data then there are two things that you are “required” to do.

By required I mean there’s a price you need to pay to heckle me and devalue my ideas.

The first is, come up with YOUR interpretation of the data I provided. It’s not like I chose hard to find and very technical metrics . . . I looked at POPULATION . . . PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION . . . CONVICTIONS FOR MURDER . . . PERCENTAGE OF PRISONERS . . . POPULATION MAKEUP OF METROPOLITAN STATISTICAL AREA . . . MEDIAN INCOME . . . I mean, these are all very cut-and-dried stats right out of an unimpeachable source . . . your Federal government. So YOU take the same numbers and show where I went wrong in my reasoning.

The second thing you need to do then, is post your theory about what’s happening in New Orleans and explain why IT ISN’T HAPPENING in other communities that have the same population density and median income.

Now, I think my theory that blacks are more violent uses irrefutable evidence to provide a very logical explanation for what’s happening in NO and why it isn’t happening elsewhere.

My challenge to you is to do the same . . . or shut up and accept my argument as TRUE (and yes, logically valid.)

Put up or shut up.
[/quote]

I am required to do nothing in order to heckle you other than log on to this website. And exercise my freedom of speech.

I cannot devalue something that had no value in the first place.

I don’t “feel” you are being selective, I know you are being selective. Your own post just proved it. Thank you, less work for me.

Since when is the Federal government an unimpeachable source of information? This is called a logical fallacy.

My theory about why what’s happening in NOLA isn’t happening in other communities of similar characteristics is that they haven’t been destroyed by a hurricane.

Your evidence has been refuted by several others in this discussion. I have other things to do other than repeat their work.

Your theory does have internal logic. Your argument is valid. This does not make it true.

Some challenge.

WMD

165

[quote]WMD wrote:
I am required to do nothing in order to heckle you other than log on to this website. And exercise my freedom of speech.

I cannot devalue something that had no value in the first place.

WMD[/quote]

WMD . . . very intellectually lazy on your part. According to you, it’s OK to “heckle” someone WITHOUT necessarily contradicting their reasoning.

NO ONE . . . I say again . . . NO ONE . . . has provided any explanation of why a 13% segement of the population commits 49% of the murders or fills 65% of our jails.

The BEST anyone has done is cry “poverty, racism, slavery, repression” . . . BUT THEN . . . they do not explain why other social groupings who have been smacked around as much as blacks DON’T BEHAVE like blacks.

Haven’t Jews been historically repressed? Aren’t Hispanics subject to incredible racism? There are as many poor Hispanics as blacks in this country (I say more). Why don’t they fill the jails? There are TWICE as many poor whites as blacks? Why don’t they lead the criminal statistics? Shit, there are seven whites for every black.

And as for disasters . . . OK worst hurrican hit NO. Fine. But the fucking thing also hit the white areas of NO and white areas of Mississippi and Alabama. Hurricane Andrew wiped out Homestead (very poor white and Hispanic). The Mississippi Floods wiped out many poor white communities.

166

[quote]orion wrote:
Young male austrian downhill skiers win the majority of world class downhill skiing tournaments, but that does not “mean austrians are better skiers”, because most of them aren?t.
[/quote]

I think most English speakers would consider “Austrians are better skiers (than some other group)” to be an implied generality and consider it a true statement if it is true on average (not only for professional skiers). So is the point of your example that there is an implied “all”, or that professionals are not representative of the group? The first would just be a silly misunderstanding of the way we use language. The second opens the possibility for debate.

167

[quote]JJJJ wrote:
WMD wrote:
I am required to do nothing in order to heckle you other than log on to this website. And exercise my freedom of speech.

I cannot devalue something that had no value in the first place.

WMD

WMD . . . very intellectually lazy on your part. According to you, it’s OK to “heckle” someone WITHOUT necessarily contradicting their reasoning.

NO ONE . . . I say again . . . NO ONE . . . has provided any explanation of why a 13% segement of the population commits 49% of the murders or fills 65% of our jails.

The BEST anyone has done is cry “poverty, racism, slavery, repression” . . . BUT THEN . . . they do not explain why other social groupings who have been smacked around as much as blacks DON’T BEHAVE like blacks.

Haven’t Jews been historically repressed? Aren’t Hispanics subject to incredible racism? There are as many poor Hispanics as blacks in this country (I say more). Why don’t they fill the jails? There are TWICE as many poor whites as blacks? Why don’t they lead the criminal statistics? Shit, there are seven whites for every black.

And as for disasters . . . OK worst hurrican hit NO. Fine. But the fucking thing also hit the white areas of NO and white areas of Mississippi and Alabama. Hurricane Andrew wiped out Homestead (very poor white and Hispanic). The Mississippi Floods wiped out many poor white communities.

[/quote]

Whine…

168

[quote]JJJJ wrote:

NO ONE . . . I say again . . . NO ONE . . . has provided any explanation of why a 13% segement of the population commits 49% of the murders or fills 65% of our jails.
[/quote]

Let me ask you, have you even considered that blacks may be convicted of crimes more often than whites for the SAME offenses? Have you considered the greater charge for distribution of crack cocaine compared to powdered cocaine? How many blacks convicted of crimes are actually innocent? Do you know?

You want to ignore socio-economic influences as well as social racism in the judicial system (as if it doesn’t exist) and personally, your statistics don’t mean much to me.

It has been asked of you several times by several others what good could come out of labeling an entire race with a negative stereotype. You have yet to answer that question…so let me ask you this one;

I’m black…what does that mean? I am a young black male. What is in my future?

Come on, you have to know this because you have the statistics right in front of you. Tell me my future. How violent am I? How uneducated am I? How much have I stolen?

I need to know these things because the statistics never lie…and I am at their mercy, correct?

169

[quote]WMD wrote:
Whine…
[/quote]

Not a whine WMD.

A plea that you consider the evidence and don’t just fall into the intellectually lazy trap of Character Assassination like that “other nitwit” is obssessively doing.

This is a difficult subject. You can’t just blow it off.

170

[quote]JJJJ wrote:
WMD wrote:
I am required to do nothing in order to heckle you other than log on to this website. And exercise my freedom of speech.

I cannot devalue something that had no value in the first place.

WMD

WMD . . . very intellectually lazy on your part. According to you, it’s OK to “heckle” someone WITHOUT necessarily contradicting their reasoning.

NO ONE . . . I say again . . . NO ONE . . . has provided any explanation of why a 13% segement of the population commits 49% of the murders or fills 65% of our jails.

The BEST anyone has done is cry “poverty, racism, slavery, repression” . . . BUT THEN . . . they do not explain why other social groupings who have been smacked around as much as blacks DON’T BEHAVE like blacks.

Haven’t Jews been historically repressed? Aren’t Hispanics subject to incredible racism? There are as many poor Hispanics as blacks in this country (I say more). Why don’t they fill the jails? There are TWICE as many poor whites as blacks? Why don’t they lead the criminal statistics? Shit, there are seven whites for every black.

And as for disasters . . . OK worst hurrican hit NO. Fine. But the fucking thing also hit the white areas of NO and white areas of Mississippi and Alabama. Hurricane Andrew wiped out Homestead (very poor white and Hispanic). The Mississippi Floods wiped out many poor white communities.

[/quote]

Your reasoning has been contradicted over and over again.

I don’t know where you got the idea that you could give me orders or set the parameters for our conversation, but you don’t. Not even ZEB, JeffR or RJ have had that much arrogance.

You have proven nothing except that you are able to quote some dubious statistics. The variables that can contribute to statistical inaccuracy are pretty well infinite. You have applied no critical thinking to the statistics themselves, their sources, the many problems of trying to apply statistical methods to as complex a thing as human social groups. You just keep saying the same things over and over as if this makes them true.

Jews in this country have had it pretty good compared to other parts of the world. No matter where they were they always had a sense of cultural identity. In case you don’t understand why that is important, a groups own cultural mores have way more power over peoples behavior than the laws of the dominant culture. Hispanics have never been enslaved and have never experienced the level of oppression and cultural disintegration that blacks have. There are statistically (your favorite adverb) more blacks in this country than hispanics, although that probably depends on what part of the country you live in. There are plenty of them in jail.

The biggest problem with your rationale is that you think human beings can be reduced to a math problem and that that tells you anything about them.

WMD

171

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You want to ignore socio-economic influences as well as social racism in the judicial system (as if it doesn’t exist) and personally, your statistics don’t mean much to me.

It has been asked of you several times by several others what good could come out of labeling an entire race with a negative stereotype. You have yet to answer that question…so let me ask you this one;

I’m black…what does that mean? I am a young black male. What is in my future?

Come on, you have to know this because you have the statistics right in front of you. Tell me my future. How violent am I? How uneducated am I? How much have I stolen?

I need to know these things because the statistics never lie…and I am at their mercy, correct?[/quote]

PROFESSOR . . . first I would speak to you in generalities . . .

The bad news: You have a higher chance of getting protate cancer and other diseases that affect blacks. Cancers will probably hurt you worse. The good news: You will “probably” have less skeletal problems as you age because your bones are “probably” thicker. medicine is identifying and ameliorating black risk factors.

The bad news: as a young black male I would say to you that you have a 1/3 chance of going to jail. In other words, if you have 10 friends, three will go to jail. I would also say that statiscally, you have a higher chance of beating your wife . . . but also a 43% chance of never marrying. You will “probably” also earn less than your white friends and you have a 24% chance of ending up poor.

The good news: Blacks are earning more and climbing economically, faster.

That’s all generalities. Now some specifics.

“Generalities” don’t mean anything when it comes to a specific human being. What you do with your life is totally in your hands.

Do not let yourself be affected by the more corrosive elements of black culture. Avoid those and stick with positive role models and positive messages and you’ll be OK.

I did it. I suspect I was subject to as much racism as you have ever been . . . I got it from whites and blacks . . . and I got it at a time when racism was “normal.” I didn’t speak the language and we came here with nothing. Yet today I make a good chunk of money and have already lived a happy and productive life.

I would also ask you . . . do you vote? Are you active politically? Are you involved with trying to create economic opportunity among blacks? If you have money . . . are you willing to sponsor a black person with entrepreneurial ambitions? Are you willing to become a role model for fatherless black kids and teach them about “manhood?” Are you willing to sponsor a black kid through high school by guaranteeing him a college education if he graduates?

172

WMD . . . well, my “dubious statistics” have sure kicked your ass.

Any jackass can say “your stats prove nothing because you’re ignoring other factors.”

OK . . . I presented my analysis. Let’s see yours. YOU explain my stats. YOU present a rational argument that explains black crime. I’ve answered every question and criticism as best as I could . . .

All I see you doing is hiding in the shadows and ackowledging that you don’t have the mental energy and flexibility to deal with a tough question.

And no . . . Hispanics don’t “fill the jails.” Blacks do . . . a 13% black population fiils up 65% of the jails.

But in your la-la land, that’s not enough to say there’s a problem, right? We need to study the issue some more . . . do more “multi-variate regression analysis” . . . we need to look at other factors . . . right?

Intellectual masturbation, buddy. If the levels of black crime in America today aren’t enough to convice you that THERE’S A FUCKING PROBLEM IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY . . . then you’re an intellectually lazy bastard who will never be convinced by ANYTHING.

If you’re not willing to ENGAGE . . . don’t waste out time.

173

[quote]JJJJ wrote:
Do not let yourself be affected by the more corrosive elements of black culture. [/quote]

But what about the corrosive elements of “white culture”?

[quote]
Avoid those and stick with positive role models and positive messages and you’ll be OK.[/quote]

My heart is all a-flutter with joy.

[quote]
I did it. I suspect I was subject to as much racism as you have ever been . . . I got it from whites and blacks . . . and I got it at a time when racism was “normal.” I didn’t speak the language and we came here with nothing. Yet today I make a good chunk of money and have already lived a happy and productive life. [/quote]

That’s amazing.

[quote]
I would also ask you . . . do you vote? Are you active politically? Are you involved with trying to create economic opportunity among blacks? If you have money . . . are you willing to sponsor a black person with entrepreneurial ambitions? Are you willing to become a role model for fatherless black kids and teach them about “manhood?” Are you willing to sponsor a black kid through high school by guaranteeing him a college education if he graduates?[/quote]

What does all of this have to do with you making a point of race? These are the qualities ANY race should have if the goal is further advancement. The question was asked what good can come of affixing a negative stereotype to an entire race. You haven’t answered that yet. Are you claiming that your goal in all of this is advancement of the black race? You cared so much about blacks, that you were compelled to start this thread to help us poor statistically unethical savages out? Your bullshit stinks…real bad. If your goal is to help people, affixing a label does nothing. Trying to link negative behavior to skin color does nothing but bring more negativity.

What you don’t seem to get, is that putting a label on an entire race is part of the problem. If all you heard from birth was that you were not equal or that something was “wrong” with your race, where would your motivation come from? We are advancing because there are enough of us who don’t allow these labels to affect us…because we actually had choices, options and others around us letting us know that those stereotypes were false.

You are a fool if you think you are fooling anyone into thinking you are simply doing this because you really want to help. Help doesn’t come in affixing negative stereotypes. Those same stereotypes are exactly what is holding many back…simply because they also believe them.

174

If someone could prove that blacks are truly twice as violent as whites and show the exact gene that is responsible it still would not change a damn thing.

What could you do? Implement a final solution?

People are people and should be responsible for their personal choices, not what other people in their ethnic group have done.

This whole topic is a waste.

175

Since JJJJ likes stats here are some for him:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htus02.pdf

“Blacks were 6 times more likely to be homicide victims and 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicides in 2002. During the study period 1976-2002, 86% of white murder victims were killed by whites, and 94% of black victims were killed by blacks.”

Also check out:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0302.pdf

Look at table 42. I think it clearly shows that the majority of violent crimes are committed against white people and that in every catagory whites commited the majority of the crimes against other whites.

176

Sure, that may be true. But the statistics were for violent crime and murder arrests. Now, you can argue that blacks are more frequently arrested than whites for crimes they didn’t commit, but you’d have to prove that point, and also show that they are wrongly arrested at close to four times the rate of whites (or more if whites are also wrongly arrested).

Again, we’re talking arrests here, not convictions. Furthermore, I don’t believe selling drugs is considered a violent crime.

Change “convicted” to “arrested”. No, I don’t know. Do you? If you think you have evidence that renders the violent crime stats incorrect, then present it. I’d like to read it.

It hasn’t been ignored, it’s been addressed. Read the thread and you’ll find it.

I’ll answer that question. Personally, I don’t believe it matters. The idea that we can’t accept and admit the truth without being labeled racist is part of the problem. It breeds resentment, and a climate where truth is considered less important than not hurting people’s feelings. And I disagree that the above involves “labeling an entire race,” it involves identifying a problem within a community in this country as a first step towards solving it.

[quote]I’m black…what does that mean? I am a young black male. What is in my future?

Come on, you have to know this because you have the statistics right in front of you. Tell me my future. How violent am I? How uneducated am I? How much have I stolen?

I need to know these things because the statistics never lie…and I am at their mercy, correct? [/quote]

Come on, professor. No one is arguing that stats can be used to show what one individual will do in his/her life. Seriously though, the fact that 50% of murder arrestees come from a community in this country that makes up 12% of the population doesn’t scream out that there’s something seriously wrong in that community? Does the fact that I can’t tell you exactly what you will do with your life take away from that problem in any way?

Don’t you want to fix that problem as well, or do you honestly not believe there is a problem?

177

PROFESSOR X . . . OK, I get it. Gee, don?t I feel like an asshole? Here I thought you wanted to have a serious discussion with me but it turns out that you were only trying to bait me into a trap where you could just score more points.

Yeah, nitwit, my accomplishments have been pretty amazing considering where I started and they are proof that ANYONE . . . of any background . . . can make it in this country if they?re willing to work hard and not fall victim to self-delusions about how victimized they are.

Like I?ve said elsewhere, I spent 26 years (my entire adult life) in the military . . . worrying about the enemy outside the walls. Now that I?m retired, I?ve turned my intention to what?s happening inside the walls. It isn?t good. And by the way . . . although this thread is about blacks . . . we have other problems inside the walls which are just as serious. I write about them too.

But for this one thread, let?s just focus on blacks. Your race is responsible for most of the crime in this country even though you constitute a small minority. Your race fills 65% of the jails . . . yet you?re only a small minority. Here?s what one commentator says. He calls it

///quote///

A Dismal Reality (Fred On Everything: Fred Recommends Best Hotels in Mexico)
The melding of the races just hasn?t worked and, if examined honestly, shows few signs of working. Fifty years after the Brown decision, blacks remain unassimilated. They appear to be unassimilable. This, after endless programs, after the nation has turned itself on its head trying to encourage, promote, force, or imagine assimilation.
Integration of the schools degraded the schools, but did little for blacks. Operation Head Start didn?t work. Racial quotas in the universities didn?t work, nor did the awarding of unearned degrees or the establishment of departments of Black Studies. Compulsory integration of restaurants didn?t work. Quotas in hiring, enforced by the federal government, didn?t work. Welfare didn?t work. Hate-crime laws didn?t work. Nothing has worked.
These attempts have not been without results, but assimilation of blacks into the country has not been one of them. Compelled hiring by race instead of merit has produced a black middle class, but those so hired are regarded as a sort of tax, a cost of doing business. Saying this aloud is a firing offense, so no one says it in the office. They say it later over a beer. This was not the intended outcome. It is what we got.

Neither race shows much inclination to associate with the other. Left to themselves, they quickly segregate, in housing, on campus, in night clubs. Only heavy Federal pressure produces an appearance of “togetherheid.”
//// end quote///

So I resent your snarky, sarcastic comment: “You cared so much about blacks, that you were compelled to start this thread to help us poor statistically unethical savages out?”

No, it?s about pointing out the solutions of the last 50 years have been a DISMAL FUCKING FAILURE and we need to do something different.

Now, Professor, you also say: “What you don’t seem to get, is that putting a label on an entire race is part of the problem. We are advancing because there are enough of us who don’t allow these labels to affect us…because we actually had choices, options and others around us letting us know that those stereotypes were false.”

And that is admirable. That is PART of the solution . . . but it isn?t the complete solution because, well, after 50 years, 1/3 of you go to jail and 24% of you are living in poverty.

So individual achievement is fine but there needs to be MASSIVE INTERVENTION and the political will for that will only come when we as a Nation begin to see just how BAD the situation is.

Just ask yourself . . . take all these morons on this thread that are calling me a racist and a bigot . . . how many of them actually knew the extent of the problem before I posted some of the statistics that we?ve discussed?

The fact is that very few, well-educated, white liberals who would never DARE say anything negative about blacks understand how high the black murder rate is . . . or the black incarceration rate . . . or know anything about what?s behind some of the black leaders.

Finally, as to this comment: “Help doesn’t come in affixing negative stereotypes. Those same stereotypes are exactly what is holding many back…simply because they also believe them.”

That?s actually a valid criticism of this thread. I understand that people out there can MISUSE the things I say to prove that blacks are this and that . . . this is where I agree with those who say that statistics lie. But guess what, buddy? After 50 years of Federal and liberal bullshit, the stereotypes are still there. They would be there even if I had never written a word.

So, as I see it, we have a choice to make in this country. We can continue to EMPOWER generation after generation of poverty and criminality in the black community . . . or we can INTERVENE with effective programs designed to destroy the corrosive influences.

And again I ask . . . what have you done lately to help your own people? This is my way . . . as wrongheaded as you may think it is. What?s your?

And by the way . . . have we met? Have you and I ever sat down and had a beer? Then how the fuck can you accuse me of having the worst motives possible? You haven?t bothered to get to know me or explore my motives and ideas. Don?t you see the irony in you doing to me what you say I?m doing to blacks?

178

[quote]BookerT wrote:
Since JJJJ likes stats here are some for him:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htus02.pdf

“Blacks were 6 times more likely to be homicide victims and 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicides in 2002. During the study period 1976-2002, 86% of white murder victims were killed by whites, and 94% of black victims were killed by blacks.”

Also check out:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0302.pdf

Look at table 42. I think it clearly shows that the majority of violent crimes are committed against white people and that in every catagory whites commited the majority of the crimes against other whites.
[/quote]

Great! Whites committing crimes against whites! Whats next cats sleeping with dogs?

179

[quote]BookerT wrote:
Since JJJJ likes stats here are some for him:

“Blacks were 6 times more likely to be homicide victims and 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicides in 2002. During the study period 1976-2002, 86% of white murder victims were killed by whites, and 94% of black victims were killed by blacks.”

Also check out: Look at table 42. I think it clearly shows that the majority of violent crimes are committed against white people and that in every catagory whites commited the majority of the crimes against other whites.
[/quote]

BOOKERT . . . sorry but perhaps you could explain your first point a little more clearly.

It says to me that blacks are GETTING MURDERED in huge rates (mostly by other blacks ) and that blacks are 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicides . . .

Maybe I’m missing something, sir . . . how does that prove me wrong? Seems to prove my point.

As for Table 42 it only says that whites are victimized by people they know or don’t know at certain rates . . . and so are blacks.

Sorry, sir . . . again I fail to see the significance of that data.

BUT . . . I got a woodie over the fact that FINALLY, someone has the balls to start looking at hard numbers and is coming after me with actual numbers instead of liberal bullshit and philosophy.

Now that’s debate! Thank you . . . you’ve made my day!

180

[quote]JJJJ wrote:
PROFESSOR X . . . OK, I get it. Gee, don?t I feel like an asshole? Here I thought you wanted to have a serious discussion with me but it turns out that you were only trying to bait me into a trap where you could just score more points.[/quote]

“Trapping” you isn’t difficult. Most people who are misguided will paint themselves into a corner if you simply let them keep talking.

Ouch.

[quote]
my accomplishments have been pretty amazing considering where I started and they are proof that ANYONE . . . of any background . . . can make it in this country if they?re willing to work hard and not fall victim to self-delusions about how victimized they are.[/quote]

Oooh, well, aren’t we full of ourselves. My guess is, the typical serious bodybuilder or weight lifter on this forum is nowhere near average. Therefore, I seriously doubt you are alone in being able to discuss your “amazing” accomplishments in life. Guess what, my grandmother survived an abusive husband, raised three kids (taking in another soon after raising that number to four), and worked two and three jobs at a time that treated her like shit for years in order to provide for them and her grandchildren. I would rate her accomplishments as more “amazing” than most of the people who would readily call their own actions as such.

[quote]
Like I?ve said elsewhere, I spent 26 years (my entire adult life) in the military . . . worrying about the enemy outside the walls. Now that I?m retired, I?ve turned my intention to what?s happening inside the walls. It isn?t good. And by the way . . . although this thread is about blacks . . . we have other problems inside the walls which are just as serious. I write about them too.[/quote]

So, you think you are helping?

[quote]
But for this one thread, let?s just focus on blacks.[/quote]

Why? Why are you focused on blacks?

[quote]
Your race is responsible[/quote]

Wait, before you go any further. Your race blew up a federal building in Oklahoma destroying thousands of lives. Your race enslaved and murdered millions of Jews. Your race enslaved millions of black africans. Your race…wait a second, did you personally do this? For someone who has made such “amazing” advancements in his life, why are you stuck on race?

[quote]
///quote///

A Dismal Reality (Fred On Everything: Fred Recommends Best Hotels in Mexico)
The melding of the races just hasn?t worked and, if examined honestly, shows few signs of working. Fifty years after the Brown decision, blacks remain unassimilated. They appear to be unassimilable. This, after endless programs, after the nation has turned itself on its head trying to encourage, promote, force, or imagine assimilation.
Integration of the schools degraded the schools, but did little for blacks. Operation Head Start didn?t work. Racial quotas in the universities didn?t work, nor did the awarding of unearned degrees or the establishment of departments of Black Studies. Compulsory integration of restaurants didn?t work. Quotas in hiring, enforced by the federal government, didn?t work. Welfare didn?t work. Hate-crime laws didn?t work. Nothing has worked.
These attempts have not been without results, but assimilation of blacks into the country has not been one of them. Compelled hiring by race instead of merit has produced a black middle class, but those so hired are regarded as a sort of tax, a cost of doing business. Saying this aloud is a firing offense, so no one says it in the office. They say it later over a beer. This was not the intended outcome. It is what we got.

Neither race shows much inclination to associate with the other. Left to themselves, they quickly segregate, in housing, on campus, in night clubs. Only heavy Federal pressure produces an appearance of “togetherheid.”
//// end quote///[/quote]

Aaah, so we finally get to the heart of it. You want segregation. No, you aren’t racist at all.

I pity any idiot who actually thought you had a point other than what you just quoted. You are a bigot. You are a racist, and your little game here has no basis in helping me or anyone else in “my race”…not that we need your help.

[quote]
No, it?s about pointing out the solutions of the last 50 years have been a DISMAL FUCKING FAILURE and we need to do something different.[/quote]

Right. Was my grandmother a failure?

[quote]
The fact is that very few, well-educated, white liberals who would never DARE say anything negative about blacks understand how high the black murder rate is . . . or the black incarceration rate . . . or know anything about what?s behind some of the black leaders.[/quote]

Wait a second, if this is all about helping the black race (which is obviously your goal), why would you even delegate your point to “white liberals”? Are they different than “black liberals”?

[quote]
And again I ask . . . what have you done lately to help your own people? This is my way . . . as wrongheaded as you may think it is. What?s your?[/quote]

Oh, now you want to know about my “amazing” accomplishments. I won’t go into that just yet. Right now, just consider me yet another poor young black man who needs to be segregated. Let’s see how this works out.