Fixing the Ghetto

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
If it weren’t for the war on drugs those corner kids would have to think of another way to make it in life other than becoming dealers.

If they weren’t fighting over drug turf those neighborhoods would be a lot safer.

If young fathers weren’t being hauled off to jail for a couple of decades at a time there would be less broken families.

Ending the war on drugs is not the only solution but it would be a good starting point. Because right now it is turning ghetto neighborhoods into a war zone.

People who have their lives together well enough that they can afford to live somewhere better usually leave. So all that is left in those areas tends to be people who are dysfunctional.

Metropolitan Detroit is like this. Back in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s they had the white flight where all the whites who could moved out into the suburbs. Then in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s the blacks with job skills started moving across 8 mile into suburbs like Southfield.

How would you end the war on drugs, aside from decriminalizing them?

[/quote]

Once they were decriminalized there are things that could be done to control and contain the damage. Like a red light district. ie Detroit is dotted with crack neighborhoods along with some nice old ones that are still viable communities. With a legal distribution channel they could pick one really shitty crack neighborhood put a wall around it and move out everyone else.

That way if people want to use crack they would have to go to that spot and stay there till they have come down and are ready to go out and do something productive.

Or instead of having crack houses all over a neighborhood, you could replace them with one commercial facility that was out of the way so people in the neighborhood didn’t have to see it and you contained it in there. That way you could minimize the effect on the rest of the neighborhood so people could get on with their lives.

Other drugs could be treated differently from crack because you don’t have issues of second hand smoke and people being all cracked out. But the basic idea with a legalization would be to use that as a means to get control over distribution and maybe even some control over usage patterns.

82

[quote]Professor X wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:

There is a hell of a difference between privatized healthcare and an agreed upon business agreement between two parties as opposed to forced taxation to support a crack head hooker on hiv medication. One who could use the money she spends staying high on insurance.

If you asked most doctors if they are happy with the current insurance situation, I doubt very many would claim it was “agreed upon” or that it is even fair at all. It simply benefits you. It does not benefit the doctor and many have actually left their practices because of that and similar circumstances.

In effect, it is very much forced onto medical health care workers.

You, of course, don’t have a problem with that though…because you are the one who sees the benefit.[/quote]

It is my understanding you are a dentist. I don’t know what business looks like between healthcare providers and insurance companies and you are right.

You are still off however.

I know what deal I worked out with my employer, who opts to pay my insurance as part of my compensation.

I know they have a deal with a provider who garuntees my company has to pay x-amount per prescription I fill, doctor visit I need or hospital stay heaven forbid something happens to me.

We all agreed on certain rates and terms together.

I don’t know how billing works on the back end. I don’t know if gov’t mandates certain amounts of money from insurance companies or limits amounts, I don’t know about collection times etc etc.

I do know it is private business however and you can reject certain companies if you don’t like the presented terms and are unable to re-negotiate.

Welfare is a different story. There is no choice in the matter what so ever for the people who actually pay the money and that is the fucked up bottom line.

Nobody is entitled to anything. Rich, poor what ever just for existing.

I would be interested to hear your take as a healthcare provider (if i’m right and you are a dentist. If you are an assistant or some bullshit I don’t give a fuck) on the back end business of private insurance however. While I do have opinions that often spark controversy, usually about women, I am willing to learn something I don’t know, especially if objective as opposed to subjective.

And who knows, maybe it’ll change my mind on this particular issue.

83

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
It depends what you think the problems of the Ghetto are. I personally see nothing wrong with poor neighbor hoods; I think the war on drugs brings violence in the form of gang activity to compete with an artificially inflated drug price. Take that away and you are getting closer to a poor neighbor hood

And Former Texas Guy, you sound like the true Republican. I think this is where the Republicans drop the ball; they do not want to do anything to help the poor. They think conservative values are screwing the poor.

I’m suggesting the poor help themselves. Many do and they come on up. Those who stay in the ghetto make their choices. So fuck them.

It may take a paradigm shift but when a person starts relying on themselves to fix their situation they will find a way to do it. And when a person sits around waiting for some one else to fix it for them, they will be sorely dissapointed and will be a drain.

If that makes me a republican asshole so be it.

Be responsible. put down the drugs, don’t pour hundreds or even thousands of dollars in to modifying your piece of shit hoopty when you can’t even make rent, finish school, achive greater things than long hours washing dishes, don’t break the law and blame others for the cycle you find your life taking and stop whining.

Contrary to popular opinion, nobody handed middle class to middle class americans, or ensures they keep it.

They made the choices to move up in or maintain their lives, acted on those decisions and earned their position in society.

The upper crust may be sprinkled with trust fund babies and heirs but virtually everybody else had to work and be smart and avoid trouble for the benz they can actually afford to be parked in their circle drive.

Fence it off. Quit pouring money in to it. Check back in a few years, remove the skeletons, level the buildings and build a nice park.

Some people just suck at life. They fail every where, usually due to not trying and ignoring opportunities, and wind up in the ghetto. That’s why the ghetto sucks. It’s a neighborhood full of people who suck.

It falls apart because nobody gives a shit to fix it or themselves. “It is what it is.” Fuck that. It is what it is because they don’t care to make it something else.

You can’t change these people. A few maybe but most have had ample opportunity to do something positive and pissed it away.

Take the kids though. 12 and younger. They still have a shot. Then fence it off and quit pouring money in.

Problem solved.

I am sorry; I just thought this was indicative of a Republican

[/quote]

No need to apologize. I do believe some people truly just suck. And they wind up in low income neighborhoods which we know as ghettos. Ghettos are a collection of sucky individuals. Bottom line.

i’m not getting in to bi-partison left and right wing bullshit with you.

I’m giving you my thoughts on the matter as formerly texas guy.

84

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
The question is probably a bit too broad. There are individual issues and policies that contribute to a ghetto or failing city.

Rent control
Welfare
public funding of schools
throwing good money after bad on political programs
zoning laws
etc.

I don’t know if you’ve seen “The Wire”, but if you haven’t you should- everyone on this board would find it very, very interesting.

What I like so much about the show is the way they divided the problems that plague the American cities, and managed to show how they all interact with each other.

The first season was about the drug trade- how it’s set up, how it’s run, how the money is laundered, etc.

The second is about the docks and the longshoreman’s union, and how they are used to smuggle said drugs (and other shit) into the country.

The third was about the political scene, and the corruption inherent in it.

The fourth is about the school system, and how “teaching to the test” is destroying them, as well as how the kids from the corner grow up and change.

The fifth is about print journalism, and how it contributes to the whole mess.

So, we could focus on one problem- as we would talk about it, the government would “throw money at it” and the papers would cover the shit out of it. But with the way that it’s all connected, and the societal problems intersect, addressing one issue is to ignore the others.

If you wanted to focus on a section, let’s say this- what’s the first thing you would focus on? What would be the most important thing that could start the thing up?[/quote]

Politics
phase out rent control and welfare. phase out prohibition on drugs. pay teachers based on merit. pay good teachers much more to teach in these areas. offer permanent education vouchers that any school can compete for.

Community
Educate residents able to vote and get them to vote for proper candidates. be wiling to work. Quite dealing drugs. quit killing each other. quit getting pregnant before marriage. Quit getting pregnant before graduating. take an interest in your childern’s education.

The Community part is the most important as it will encourage businesses and jobs to re-enter the areas most in need. The policy part is really just taking away the incentives for the volentarily destructive behavior that should be addressed by the community. If the community is not willing to help themselves, no policy will work.

85

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
tom63 wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
tom63 wrote:

Check the party leadership in these areas, I mean which party they belong to. For years. Unopposed. And then you’ll have your answer.

Are you just going to say, “This is the democrat’s fault” and leave it at that?

Try thinking out of the box for a second.

Honest to god, I’m with irish on this one. Sometimes it’s time to shut the hell up about political parties and actually discuss issues.

It is impossible to implement certain issues with one party control tot he degree that is is. the average ghetto has been so predominatly democratic, usually over 90% of the time and it has not gotten better.

Except that a lot of these problems are caused (or more likely, exacerbated by) federal policies that Republicans had a lot to do with. Th War on Drugs is the biggest example.

Free trade is next. As the head of the longshoreman’s union says in season two, “You know what the problem is Brucie? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy’s pocket.”[/quote]

explain to me how free trade has anything to do with poverty. building shit has nothing to do with poverty.

86

[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
I’ve moved around a lot and made friends with people from Watts, Casablanca, Wattsonville, La 89, Zona Norte, EastLos, South Central, Compton, etc.

I’ve met a bunch of families that have lived entire generations in the hood. Said families have worked harder and sacrificed more to provide for their own than anyone I know. They aren’t the exception either. I think they’d object to being fenced off and sentenced to death. Too many people assume that those in the ghetto fucked themselves… problems of this scale are never that simple.[/quote]

It is pretty simple actually. You graduate before getting married, get married before having children, you don’t live in poverty for very long. Statistically, those that make good decisions don’t live in poverty. That would mean a majority of those that live in poverty make bad decisions.

87

[quote]Gregus wrote:
nopal_juventus wrote:
I’ve moved around a lot and made friends with people from Watts, Casablanca, Wattsonville, La 89, Zona Norte, EastLos, South Central, Compton, etc.

I’ve met a bunch of families that have lived entire generations in the hood. Said families have worked harder and sacrificed more to provide for their own than anyone I know. They aren’t the exception either.

I think they’d object to being fenced off and sentenced to death. Too many people assume that those in the ghetto fucked themselves… problems of this scale are never that simple.

True. And it takes a certain amount of non judgementalism and freedom from stereotypes to see that. Not much of that here. Come to think of it, not much of that in most of human populations :frowning:

[/quote]

even when stereotypes prove themselves out in reality? To be non-judgemental is to be weak minded ideolog. It take absolutly no effort to be non-judgmental and ignore facts and Empirical data. This kind of thinking has given us the welfare state and other destructive policies.

88

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I propose we also erase all insurance discounts for medical procedures.

If you get cancer, you should immediately go bankrupt.

I want to see everyone here paying in full for the smallest dental/medical treatment right out of their own pockets. Why do I get paid less based on which insurance carrier you have?

Hurt on the job? Shit, take the pay cut and lose the job. Why get paid for work you aren’t doing? Hell, you knew it was risky when you took that job at Target.

Hell, we can use this “do nothing” idea in all walks of life.[/quote]

So we can’t chose to have insurance? That’s a volentary transaction between consumer and provider.

This is typical of your well thought out posts. Private insurance subsidizes those in ghetto that get free care. The fact that the rest of have insurance carriers is all that is keeping the medicare, medicade, and free care available.

89

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
What ghettos needs are intact families. For a child to escape a cycle of poverty (and violence), having mommy and daddy married and living together is the greatest thing they could have going for them. The truly poor are the least able to afford libertine lifestyles.

All the dads are in jail on drug charges.

Don’t sell drugs.

You go to jail for possession also. That is way the drug laws are for mass incarceration cause even during alcohol prohibition, users didn’t go to jail.

So, when you live in poverty, with a wife and child depending on your paycheck, or on you trying to find a place to earn a paycheck, spend it on baby forumala, car repairs, or educational products for the kid, etc.

edits: This isn’t to say the laws don’t need changing. But, if you have money to spend on something as totally useless as getting high…

Do you not get that people who are not happy with their lives will look for an escape?[/quote]

Then they pay the price. Shitty things have happend to me and I would consider myself a successful professional, father, and husband. No matter what happens to me, I am smart enough to know that worse things have happend to better people. You want an escape? Deal with the consequences.

90

[quote]Professor X wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I propose we also erase all insurance discounts for medical procedures.

If you get cancer, you should immediately go bankrupt.

I want to see everyone here paying in full for the smallest dental/medical treatment right out of their own pockets. Why do I get paid less based on which insurance carrier you have?

Hurt on the job? Shit, take the pay cut and lose the job. Why get paid for work you aren’t doing? Hell, you knew it was risky when you took that job at Target.

Hell, we can use this “do nothing” idea in all walks of life.

Agreed. It’s kind of sad that conservatism has morphed into the “fuck you” celebration of individualism that was once the province of Sixties radicals.

They are coming across like political ass holes.

I see all kinds of people from high income to just scraping by and all of them act the same when the bill is due for medical procedures.

Apparently, that “take care of it all yourself” attitude only lasts as long as they aren’t the ones in need.
[/quote]

Conservatives, as a group, give much more of themselves than liberals. Liberals like to give other peoples money away. Conservatives just want to chose where there money goes. They want results. Gov’t social policies do not provide results, they cause damage.

Don’t ask me to gleefully pay for programs that don’t work for people that don’t want to provide for themselves. We all have the choice of whether or not to be a worthless piece of shit. I have no problem helping those that chose not to be a worthless piece of shit. Just let me decide.

91

[quote]Sifu wrote:
matsm21 wrote:
ghettos did exist before the current drug laws existed…

True. However before the war on drugs there were other factors that were hurting those areas. It was only in 1968 that the civil rights act was signed by president Johnson.

It was only three years later in 1971 that Nixon declared the war on drugs. Which Reagan ramped up in 1980.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/cron/

So those areas only had three years between the signing of the civil rights act and the war on drugs in which to recover. One bad situation was replaced by another.

[/quote]

I am not sure I am following your logic. What did the civil rights act have to do with ghettos? Ghettos have existed since people aggregated in cities.

The Jews lived in the original ghettos. Italians, Irish, Chinese, Russians, ect. all lived in ghettos. Most of them while saving or sending money to familiy back home. Not living off of welfare. Most eventually improved their lot in life. With the exception of my ancestors, the irish, none acted in the same destructive manner as todays ghetto inhabitants.

That seems to have changed. All of a sudden we have generations of people living in these shit holes. Not working, not saving, not even trying to improve their lot in life. Right around the time we created the welfare state.

92

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I want to see everyone here paying in full for the smallest dental/medical treatment right out of their own pockets. Why do I get paid less based on which insurance carrier you have?

[/quote]

I have done this. The dentist and oral surgeon were both surprised and quite happy.

They gave me the time period rate plus materials, and it worked out for everybody very nicely.

93

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
matsm21 wrote:
easy with the white-black thing, Go back far enough and the ghettos of new york were white. There still are many white ghettos in this country. “The war on drugs”, while a failure is not the reason we have poor people.

The war on drugs turns poor neighbor hoods into Ghettos

[/quote]
Watch out for the UFO’s there buddy boy…It’s the same thing. stop with the conspiracy theories

94

Pigs love to wallow in shit.

95

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Fix the ghetto by making it hip. Wealthy gays will move in and renovate buildings. Wealthy straight singles and couples living together will move in and do the same. Eventually wealthy married white couples with children will move in and demand better schools.

Government will listen and the schools will improve. Voila. Fixed ghetto.

They have had some gentrification in Detroit where some old neighborhoods have become hip to move into like the Woodbridge district where you can find some beautiful old brick homes.

http://detroitwoodbridgeduplex.blogspot.com/

or Indian Village.

The problem is if you step outside of these nice enclaves you can very quickly find yourself deep in the hood. If you ever watch the movie 8 mile the ghetto house that Cheddar Bob lives in is just a couple of streets away from Indian Village.

Gentrification can do wonders for restoring a old area but it has it’s limits. Especially when the area has become a battle zone in the war on drugs. War is about destruction, the ghetto reflects the fact that it is a battle zone.[/quote]

It looks gentrification hasn’t made it to this part of Detroit. A dead body, though it was noticed, didn’t warrant a call to the police.

96

[quote]dhickey wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
tom63 wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
tom63 wrote:

Check the party leadership in these areas, I mean which party they belong to. For years. Unopposed. And then you’ll have your answer.

Are you just going to say, “This is the democrat’s fault” and leave it at that?

Try thinking out of the box for a second.

Honest to god, I’m with irish on this one. Sometimes it’s time to shut the hell up about political parties and actually discuss issues.

It is impossible to implement certain issues with one party control tot he degree that is is. the average ghetto has been so predominatly democratic, usually over 90% of the time and it has not gotten better.

Except that a lot of these problems are caused (or more likely, exacerbated by) federal policies that Republicans had a lot to do with. Th War on Drugs is the biggest example.

Free trade is next. As the head of the longshoreman’s union says in season two, “You know what the problem is Brucie? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy’s pocket.”

explain to me how free trade has anything to do with poverty. building shit has nothing to do with poverty. [/quote]

Because free trade puts Americans who have a high standard of living into direct competition for work with people in the third world who are living in true poverty.

97

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Because free trade puts Americans who have a high standard of living into direct competition for work with people in the third world who are living in true poverty. [/quote]

Competition is good. cheap products are good. We need to focus on products and services that we can offer the best qualitiy at the best price. In a free market there is no limit to demand for new products and services.

At least not until we have reached a point where there is no room for better efficiency, cheaper production, new materials, etc. Cheaper products and services provide “left over” capital to pay for and create demand for new products.

If Americans can get products and services cheaper, does it really matter where they come from? It does mean that at a given wage they will have a higher quality of life and more wealth.

International boundries matter about as much as state, or city, or neighborhood boundries. Protectionism degrades quality of life for all involved.

98

[quote]dhickey wrote:
nopal_juventus wrote:
I’ve moved around a lot and made friends with people from Watts, Casablanca, Wattsonville, La 89, Zona Norte, EastLos, South Central, Compton, etc.

I’ve met a bunch of families that have lived entire generations in the hood. Said families have worked harder and sacrificed more to provide for their own than anyone I know. They aren’t the exception either. I think they’d object to being fenced off and sentenced to death. Too many people assume that those in the ghetto fucked themselves… problems of this scale are never that simple.

It is pretty simple actually. You graduate before getting married, get married before having children, you don’t live in poverty for very long. Statistically, those that make good decisions don’t live in poverty. That would mean a majority of those that live in poverty make bad decisions.[/quote]

Exactly, somehow I managed to stay out of jail, not use or sell drugs, go to school all the way through PSU and Chiropractic college. It wasn’t really that hard.

There are two main reasons most are poor, not smart, ie bad decisions and lazy, ie, the inability to put in effect good decisions by action. It’s not that hard.

99

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I don’t think anyone has an answer to this question…but I think a good start is by expanding the police force and presence in neighborhoods. Some draconian measures may be needed to start the ball rolling. Not allowing, for example, “window washers”, broken windows, or graffiti. Cracking down on minor crimes as well as the major ones.

What did NYC do? It seems they were pretty effective. A family member lived in Bed-stuy for a time. While it was dangerous, it was nothing like it used to be.

'Course, cops alone aren’t enough. Jobs, jobs, jobs, right? Interesting question. I’m curious to hear others thoughts. [/quote]

Yes and no. They’ve done a good job of cleaning things up in New York, but a lot of that has just been ‘chasing’ undesireables out of Manattan and into the boroughs.

100

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Professor X wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I propose we also erase all insurance discounts for medical procedures.

If you get cancer, you should immediately go bankrupt.

I want to see everyone here paying in full for the smallest dental/medical treatment right out of their own pockets. Why do I get paid less based on which insurance carrier you have?

Hurt on the job? Shit, take the pay cut and lose the job. Why get paid for work you aren’t doing? Hell, you knew it was risky when you took that job at Target.

Hell, we can use this “do nothing” idea in all walks of life.

Agreed. It’s kind of sad that conservatism has morphed into the “fuck you” celebration of individualism that was once the province of Sixties radicals.

They are coming across like political ass holes.

I see all kinds of people from high income to just scraping by and all of them act the same when the bill is due for medical procedures.

Apparently, that “take care of it all yourself” attitude only lasts as long as they aren’t the ones in need.

Conservatives, as a group, give much more of themselves than liberals. Liberals like to give other peoples money away. Conservatives just want to chose where there money goes. They want results. Gov’t social policies do not provide results, they cause damage.

Don’t ask me to gleefully pay for programs that don’t work for people that don’t want to provide for themselves. We all have the choice of whether or not to be a worthless piece of shit. I have no problem helping those that chose not to be a worthless piece of shit. Just let me decide. [/quote]

The term is throughput. Say you give money to a charity to do good stuff. How much goes into the recipients in need as opposed to the organization delivering it. Government is very poor at doing this at a high level.

Some charities don’t have a great record. Someone once told me that the March Of Dimes was giving out 30% of donations. Not to great for those who should receive and those who give and think that 1 dollar or most of it goes to the needy.

Rush Limbaugh once talked about his favorite charity, the Marine Corps Scholarship fund. I think he said it provided scholarships for children of dead or wounded Marines. I’m not sure if that is the whole story, but something along those lines.

On an average year, 90%+ of the money went to scholarships, obviously higher than the March Of Dimes if the info I was told was true. Supposedly the MOD also had a private jet for the CEO and such.

And as you said, no results, or poor results, your average donor looks elsewhere.