Five Morons

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Hmmm. I think you missed the point. I was using “out of the mainstream” as shorthand for “several standard deviations away from the mean (assuming bell curve distribution)”.

THe self-named “paleoconservatives” have tried to claim for themselves the mantle of “true” conservatives, but it seems that they are devoted more to a populist type theory that embraces some conservative principles, but goes off on certain tangents, the biggest of which seems to be an isolationism that defines their position on foreign policy, trade and immigration, among other areas.

I suppose if they want to go far enough back they can definitely claim that the “true” Republicans were isolationists – after all, they passed Hawley-Smoot and opposed all of Woodrow Wilson’s initiatives as well as FDR’s push for involvement in WWII. However, choosing to crystalize the views of those isolationists and claim that is “true” conservatism seems a bit of temporal cherrypicking to me, given the modern bent of the party – at least from Nixon forward – for free trade and involvement with the rest of the world.

Roberts is a smart guy, but he went off the reservation with a slew of isolationist ideas – and apparently got his panties in a bunch when those who stayed closer to the average view started questioning him.[/quote]

It’s hard to keep track of all the different factions of the Republican party anymore. My general thought of “conservative” has always been the anti-war, balanced budget type – I guess what I’m seeing within the party is not only widely varying opinions but polar opposites.

Certainly more than a few Republicans are trying to distance themselves from this administration – as far as what’s considered “mainstream” may be up for debate.

Y’know, I don’t see the big teacher conspiracy either.

First of all, the little students in school are going to be hit with ideas from both sides of the fence. It’s natural.

I recall having kooky teachers with weird ideas, its normal, it happens to most of us, but it doesn’t mean we roll over and take whatever point of view they espouse.

Grow up people. Allow people to make up their own minds and think for themselves. They really don’t need you to do it for them…

I think this thread should receive some sort of recognition for its length, variety of discussion topics, and for the most tail-chasingly awful argument-for-argument’s-sake unwillingness to just die.

Can anyone even count the number of topics that have been discussed on here?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sometimes it’s subtle things. Such as walking into my childs third grade class a few years ago and seeing a photo of Hillary Clinton on her bulletin board. I had fun with it, I pointed and screamed. Needless to say the teahcer didn’t think it was funny. Then again, with few exceptions, most liberals are humorless.

If this is the first one that popped into your mind, I stand by my original statement. regardless of what you want to believe, Hillary may represent a strong woman in politics, period, to many women. Therefore, having a picture of her in the classroom might not be anymore of a political statement than having a picture of Martin Luther King, only with a different meaning behind it. That doesn’t mean they were forcing your kid to be liberal. Ths issue shouldn’t even be whether the majority of teachers might be liberal. Who cares? The only issue is whether they are forcing the views on your children in classes related to political views…not MATH.
[/quote]

Professor:

“Having a picture of her (Hillary) might not be anymore of a political statement than having a picture of Martin Luther King, only a different meaning.” Wahaha, that has to be your funniest coment yet! Sure, displaying a photo of a current polarizing political liberal figure like Hillary Clinton is the same thing as having a photo of a civil rights leader who was killed almost 40 years ago. :slight_smile:

And having a picture of Bobby Bonds on your desk is probably the same thing as having a photo of female Golf Legend Babe Didrikson on your desk. Yea…it’s the same thing only different :slight_smile: LOL.

No one stated that anyone was “forcing my kid to be liberal.” As I basically stated three times in my previous post, “it can be a subtle daily comment throughout the year.” You don’t mind this, and maybe you are in fact blind to it because you are liberal and have no problem with it. However, just because you are liberal there is no need to be blind as well!

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

I think this is precisely wrong. Stories tend to be generated at the editorial and reporter levels, not at ownership levels – perhaps in certain cases the publisher will advance a story, but the idea that the large corporate owner is sitting there with a red pen and editing out stories and parts of stories is absurd.

Firstly, a corporation is a fiction – it’s a collection of people in various jobs, each of whom is going to bring his individual views and ideas to the fore. Secondly, the top dogs of the corporate owners have much bigger things to worry about than whether some reporter wants to follow some conspiracy-nut storyline – things like the stock price of the parent company, which is more in their job description and will affect their compensation. Thirdly, editorial boards and editors are notoriously touchy as to editorial control – they don’t even want to accept labeled “advertorials” in a lot of cases, just in case those too stupid or busy to read closely might think that reflects the editorial view of the publication (I’m talking hard-news publications here, and by “advertorials” I’m talking about the equivalent of those stupid 4-page Hydroxycut ads in muscle mags). A newspaper or magazine requiring standards of proof and fact – especially when a story sounds wacky – is not evidence of corporate censorship.

I think most people who subscribe to conspiracy theories don’t accept how random a place the world actually is – that and they need to acquaint themselves with the basic idea of Occam’s Razor, which is that one should not substitute a large, convoluted explanation when a simple explanation is sufficient.[/quote]

I think your talking about the ideal, storybook version of journalism.

I haven’t quite figured out if you really do believe that – or if you really do know exactly what’s going on and are just “staying on message”.

I have to say that’s a somewhat naive take on the state of journalism considering three journalists recently being outed for being “on the Bush payroll” – and a fourth “hack” with full White House press access using a false I.D. (not to mention he’s part of the Plame case) - I can’t wait to hear more about that.

If he wasn’t also a gay hooker maybe the story would have died down by now : )

I guess as much as you believe I’m a “conspiracy theorist” - I believe you are equally naive. I’ve found it’s not so much WHAT is reported as what IS NOT.

Who Owns What
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/

Official Agendas

Despite the claims that the press has an adversarial relationship with the government, in truth U.S. media generally follow Washington’s official line. This is particularly obvious in wartime and in foreign policy coverage, but even with domestic controversies, the spectrum of debate usually falls in the relatively narrow range between the leadership of the Democratic and Republican parties.

The owners and managers of dominant media outlets generally share the background, worldview and income bracket of political elites. Top news executives and celebrity reporters frequently socialize with government officials. The most powerful media companies routinely make large contributions to both major political parties, while receiving millions of dollars in return in the form of payments for running political ads.

In this incestuous culture, “news” is defined chiefly as the actions and statements of people in power. Reporters, dependent on “access” and leaks provided by official sources, are too often unwilling to risk alienating these sources with truly critical coverage. Nor are corporate media outlets interested in angering the elected and bureaucratic officials who have the power to regulate their businesses.

In the vein of liberalism in academics, I thought the following is a good article to help illustrate my personal viewpoint. When dealing with history or current foreign affairs, do you teach the “official version” or the version you know to be closer to the truth? Any prof teaching foreign affairs does not buy into the propaganda version of events, past or present - so what do you do?

Media to Smithsonian:
History Is Bunk

Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.
–George Orwell, 1984

In media commentary on the Smithsonian Institute’s proposed display of the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, words were often turned on their heads: Because the proposed exhibit contained more than one viewpoint on the bombing, it was called “one-sided”; because it relied on contemporary documents rather than later apologetics, it was called “revisionist”; because it didn’t strictly adhere to the official version of history, it was called “politically correct.”

The planned exhibit showed how “elite American museums, like the universities, have fallen to the forces of political correctness and historical revisionism,” Charles Krauthammer wrote in the Washington Post (8/19/94). The Enola Gay should be displayed without comment, Krauthammer proposed, in “silent reverence.” Krauthammer will have his way: Backing down under pressure, the Smithsonian’s Air and Space Museum has announced that it will exhibit the plane without even mentioning the thousands of civilians who died from the atomic bombings.

The planned exhibit was often condemned as bad history, although evidence was rarely offered to contradict the Smithsonian’s proposals. A Houston Chronicle editorial (1/28/95) scoffed that the Smithsonian exhibit would “gag a real historian,” citing the museum’s estimate that “only about 65,000 American troops would have been killed, not the 225,000-plus estimated by U.S. military leaders.”

The Cincinnati Enquirer (9/15/94) stated flatly that “500,000 American lives…would have been lost in an invasion.” The Houston Post (9/3/94), which accused the Smithsonian of attempting “an outrageous distortion of history,” cited “estimates that an invasion of Japan would have cost a million U.S. casualties.”

In fact, the actual planners of the invasion estimated that in a worst-case scenario, 46,000 U.S. troops would have died, according to declassified 1945 documents from the Joint War Planning Committee (Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, 6-7/86). Much higher numbers were later put forward by officials involved with the bombing decision, but without documentary evidence; these numbers are hardly credible, since the planned U.S. invasion force was only scheduled to include some 190,000 combat troops (New York Times, 1/31/95).

But there are many indications that an invasion would never have been necessary–that U.S. officials knew that Japan was on the verge of surrendering. (See Gar Alperovitz, Washington Post op-ed, 10/16/94.) “My belief [was] that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary,” Gen. Dwight Eisenhower wrote in his memoirs (Mandate for Change, p. 312).

“The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan,” declared Adm. William Leahy, who presided over the Joint Chiefs of Staff (I Was There, p. 441). “Wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.” Such opinions would be labeled “anti-American” today.

There are many other historical questions about Hiroshima that pundits have not only failed to answer seriously, but have declared unaskable. A high-water mark in this sort of know-nothingism was achieved on ABC’s This Week With David Brinkley (8/28/94), when all four commentators present agreed that even raising such issues was reprehensible.

“The Smithsonian has some people working for it who shouldn’t be,” George Will pronounced. “They’re tendentious and they rather dislike this country and…lose no occasion to say so.”

“And ignorant!” Brinkley interjected.

“There is this tendency on the part of certain cultural elites in this country to find absolute evil in whatever the United States does,” Will continued. “It’s just ghastly when an institution such as the Smithsonian casts doubt on the great leadership we were blessed with in the Second World War.”

Cokie Roberts concurred that questioning history is pointless: “I think that this business of trying to rewrite history in the context of 50 years later makes very little sense.”

Garrick Utley then recommended that the Smithsonian provide “no editorial comment at all, no history lesson. Just let it be there, like Lindbergh’s Spirit of St. Louis, and each person can view it and interpret it as he or she likes.”

It is discouraging that so much of the press, which is ostensibly engaged in a search for truth, found there to be no point in seeking the truth about the past. The St. Petersburg Times editorialized (9/19/95) that museum directors shouldn’t “set themselves up as arbiters of historical truth.” If historians aren’t arbiters of historical truth, what are they? “Their job is to preserve and protect our history,” says the St. Petersburg Times–protect it, apparently, from reality.

http://www.fair.org/extra/9504/enola-gay.html

No, there were not “all white fraternities” on campus.
I resent the implication.
I further resent the “oh, wait, I bet you didn’t notice those.”

What I was saying is that you seem to feel that you can blanket ‘conservatives’ with a few put down words. Like the black kids that were calling me racisist for even listening to Limbaugh.
Being called a “redneck” in a friendly way is okay, but being called “redneck” in a jeering tone is not.
Being told that just because I might be conservative I have a stick up my ass or that I blindly follow the religious right is as stupid as me saying that just because you’re black you blindly follow the violent teachings of the black panthers.
I’m saying that liberals seem to find many ways to attack everyone else and shut down debate.
That’s what I’m saying.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

No one stated that anyone was “forcing my kid to be liberal.” As I basically stated three times in my previous post, “it can be a subtle daily comment throughout the year.” You don’t mind this, and maybe you are in fact blind to it because you are liberal and have no problem with it. However, just because you are liberal there is no need to be blind as well!
[/quote]

You can call me “liberal” all you want, that doesn’t make it true. The fact still stands that if no one is forcing ideas on your child, you can’t throw a hissy fit simply because there is a picture of Mrs. President Clinton on the wall. The real question is, would we be hearing your voice at all if the majority of teachers claimed to be conservative?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:

No one stated that anyone was “forcing my kid to be liberal.” As I basically stated three times in my previous post, “it can be a subtle daily comment throughout the year.” You don’t mind this, and maybe you are in fact blind to it because you are liberal and have no problem with it. However, just because you are liberal there is no need to be blind as well!

You can call me “liberal” all you want, that doesn’t make it true. The fact still stands that if no one is forcing ideas on your child, you can’t throw a hissy fit simply because there is a picture of Mrs. President Clinton on the wall. The real question is, would we be hearing your voice at all if the majority of teachers claimed to be conservative?[/quote]

Professor:

I like you, I think you are a good guy and give some decent training advice. However, you are totally off base on this thread and it’s not only me who is seeing it.

I stated that I thought the pressure was sublte as in hardly noticeable or clever. That means that there is no one “forcing ideas on my child.” I did say that repeatedly huh? However, as you apparently do not know and do not understand, there are far better methodologies in which to sway people rather than to “force them.” Especially with children, as they are so much more impressionable. When you have some you will find that out.

To answer your question, no, you would not be hearing my voice if the teachers were conservative. However, I would be honest enough to state that there were conservative leanings in acedemia. Just as I have stated that FOX News leans conservative. Will you admit that NBC, CBS and ABC lean liberal? No, most likely not.

You sit there with egg on your face claiming that there is no liberal bias in acedemia. This is not only ridiculous, but also harms your own credibility on this board! All you need admit is that you are a liberal and you think things are just fine with our liberal school system and in the Universities. I think most on this board would respect that.

“Mrs president Clinton” LOL, and you claim not to be liberal. Don’t run from the label man, embrace it. It’s what you are!

[quote]ZEB wrote:

You sit there with egg on your face claiming that there is no liberal bias in acedemia. [/quote]

I haven’t claimed this at all. I asked what does it matter. I also used that term for Mrs. Clinton since many hinted at her running the country during that term anyway in jokes and the media. It wasn’t some push for a future presidency like you took it as. Relax your finger pointing.

I’m not sure how much of POX’s “liberalism” is actual liberalism and how much is just a reaction to the thread.
I also don’t know–judging from what I’ve read of what he says–if he’s really what some might call a “liberal”. I think he has liberal leanings, but that doesn’t mean he’s liberal–and it doesn’t mean he’s wrong (liberal leanings aren’t my leanings, but as long as things are being done in the best interests of the people, who cares about right and left…er…wrong ?)
I think he’s wrong about the teacher thing, and I do resent the subtle implications he’s made about me, but I don’t think he’s harmed his credibility.
I think this thread has gotten out of all control, and agree with Rainjack about it.
Best,
–T.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:

I think your talking about the ideal, storybook version of journalism.

I haven’t quite figured out if you really do believe that – or if you really do know exactly what’s going on and are just “staying on message”.

I have to say that’s a somewhat naive take on the state of journalism considering three journalists recently being outed for being “on the Bush payroll” – and a fourth “hack” with full White House press access using a false I.D. (not to mention he’s part of the Plame case) - I can’t wait to hear more about that. [/quote]

You’ve got to be kidding me. Firstly, as far as I know, only one person, Armstrong Williams, was paid for writing the pro side of a particular piece of legislation. While that isn’t best practices by any means, he is an OPINION WRITER and talk-radio host, not a news reporter. There’s a huge difference between someone who writes opinion pieces, such as an E.J. Dionne, William Raspberry or Rush Limbaugh, and someone who purports to offer straight news, like an AP reporter, NYT reporter, or TV news anchor.

With one of the others, Maggie Gallagher, she received a government grant at some point that was unrelated to her opinion pieces. I don’t even know about the other one.

[quote] If he wasn’t also a gay hooker maybe the story would have died down by now : )
Sensitive Content Warning [/quote]

That was quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read – I think I lost IQ points following that link.

First off, the fact someone has some sort of press credential hardly implies any links to the administration. Credentials are generally supplied to news organizations – even little piddly ones. There are all sorts of levels of press access granted. So from reading that stupid link, I cannot tell what level credential he had, who gave it to him, what level of security clearance he would have had to obtain, or anything else that would be relevant to trying to figure out how, if at all, this guy was related to any low-level member of the administration.

Second off, you cannot tell from looking at the pictures on there that it is the same guy – two similar looking guys, to be sure – and I definitely didn’t follow the links. But without some more info I would be loathe to conclude it was the same guy – I’m sure if someone wanted to look into it he could find out info on the guy based on SSN and other things besides bad internet pictures.

ADDENDUM:

On this point, I have now heard of this elsewhere. I still think it is not only insignificant but idiotic, and I fail to see what it is supposed to signify. Wow, a gay guy was working for an internet news source and got a day-pass press credential? Wow.

More thoughts on the same line:

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/05_02_13_corner-archive.asp#056424

GUCKERT…GANNON…OH MY [Jonah Goldberg]

Prof. Bainbridge whacks Joe Conason for trying to make and even bigger deal out of the Gannon story ( http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2005/02/crunching_the_n.html ).

On that point: I’m still getting email from left-wing sites or the people who read them about what a huge deal the Gannon story is. I’m starting to feel the same way I do when I look at one of those posters with all the tiny dots which if you look at the right way you can see space ships or unicorns or whatever, because I just can’t see it. Nothing anybody has said has made this come into focus for me. So he may or may not have had a gay/sketchy/weird past. I agree he probably shouldn’t have been credentialled. But beyond that I just don’t get it. Conason et al. make a big deal that the guy was a bad writer, by their lights. Having never read his stuff, I’ll concede the possibility. Hacky writing from someone with a day pass to the White House briefing room! What a scandal!

The only angle that seems legit to me is the Plame issue. Allegedly he’s been subpoenaed – though he denies it. He’s alleged to have had access to a document that undermined Joe Wilson’s credibility. But it seems more likely that he merely had access to the Wall Street Journal which described the document ( http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2005/02/know_why_did_th.html ). Evidence that this aspect of the Gannon story is a dud, comes in Conason’s fairly brief and uninteresting treatment of what he calls a “cameo appearance” in the Plame affair. Regardless, investigate away on that front. Though it’s not like journalists haven’t been paying attention to that stuff already.

But meanwhile I’ve had several people try to explain to me that the gay sex angle makes this story no less significant than the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Jeff Gannon = Commander-in-Chief. I don’t see it.

But most people just say this proves what hypocrites conservatives are. I don’t get that either. I’d never heard of Gannon/Guckert before this story. I’d hazard to guess that’s true of most people on the right. But now we’re all supposed to be ensnared in this guy’s peccadilloes? If we never heard of him, how were we supposed to know he was supposedly gay? And if he was gay, so what? Nobody on the right has said that gays can’t be journalists or even “Republican dirty tricksters” (no pun intended). Was he trying to marry another male reporter? I just don’t get it and the more people explain it to me what a huge story it is, the smaller it gets.

A lot of stuff doesn’t get reported – especially if you examine only the big sources. Stories have to rise to a certain level of importance and credibility to actually get reported. Your stories would seem to severely lack in the credibility department – not to mention the factual back-up department. News outlets don’t want to report stories that are couched in wild conjectures and assumptions, because they lose credibility with their audiences.

[quote]
Who Owns What
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/[/quote]

I’m not even looking at this, because it doesn’t make a lick of difference, unless perhaps your link is going to prove to me that one or two individuals or small partnerships – not corporations – own the majority of TV, radio, newspaper and alternative media outlets.

Horse manure. It’s not top-down from the owners. See what I wrote in my previous post.

Do you know anyone who works as a reporter or an editor for a big corporate news source?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:

You sit there with egg on your face claiming that there is no liberal bias in acedemia.

I haven’t claimed this at all. I asked what does it matter. I also used that term for Mrs. Clinton since many hinted at her running the country during that term anyway in jokes and the media. It wasn’t some push for a future presidency like you took it as. Relax your finger pointing.[/quote]

Your implication is that there are no teachers “forcing” students into a more liberal political philosophy.

I simply made a point that “forcing” can be quite subjective. The fact that it is constantly implied on a more sublte level is enough.

And, yes it makes a difference. It “matters” a great deal! Especially when you have a different political ideal.