Five Morons

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack,

You’ve misinterpreted my last post as one designed to support any particular view… as did Boston perhaps.

Guys, is it not even possible for you to entertain ideas without having to equate them to a position and a political landscape?
[/quote]

It was your choice of words. Maybe you were asking honest, non-posited questions. But in reading it, your post seemed full of opinionated statements that you were trying to pass off as middle-of-the-road discussion topics.

One side is no less guilty than the other of blindly supporting their positions. “Bush lied, people died”. “No WMD’s”. Abu Grahib. “9/11 was a conspiracy”. Yada, Yada, Yada.

Your points for discussion sound as if you are trying to bait the right into a trap.

142

Rainjack, the points you raise all have their roots in legitimate concerns. You can no more throw them out as complete crap than your own viewpoints can be thrown at as the same.

You don’t have to agree with those viewpoints, and as they get more strident or conspiracy theory based, neither do I, but underneath them are interesting kernels of disparity.

Heck, I’m pretty certain that the “words” I use will also inflame some of the left, especially when I throw away large arguments as wild speculation and conspiracy mongering.

There is no way to dig into the issues without going through the points that are in disagreement! On many of those points, neither side has the facts and opinions or preconceptions hold sway – for all points of view.

I’d suggest that those far on the right AND those far on the left are kool-aid drinkers. If you agree or disagree with everything, then you’ve lost your own personal perspective and are simply a party dupe, whether left or right.

143

vroom,

I knew what you were saying. I like discussing issues. It’s conspiracy theories that drive me to drink – and I’m not inclined to wade through a bunch of conspiracy tripe to see if it has any kernels of ideas that have already been discussed. I’ll be happy to discuss the other stuff – especially pre-emption as a doctrine in the age of hugely increased costs of attack (nuke, chem, bio, etc.).

144

I’m not trying to disuade your efforts, honestly. But when have you ever seen an ‘honest discussion’ on here from either side?

145

Do we have points on which we can agree? How about:

Good things from the Iraq war:

  • Saddam removed from power.
  • Saddam captured and jailed.
  • His sons removed from existence.
  • WMD question resolved.
  • Iraq has a new constitution inspired by civil secular laws and not religious sharia laws.
  • Iraq has had an election (not a perfect one, but it’s a start nonetheless.)
  • US supremacy in weaponry demonstrated.

Bad things from the Iraq war:

  • A lot of soldiers dead.
  • Even more civilians dead.
  • Enormous cost.
  • Unilateral action (or “Coalition of the Willing”) tarnished the US’s image abroad.
  • US infantry shown to be “high-tech” but lacking in numbers. Ground support (bodyarmor, bullets, plating) insufficient for all troops.
  • Country still not “stable”
  • Bin Laden still not caught.
  • Al Qaeda still operating.
  • Elections in Iraq have elected and Islamic Republic party, and not the US-friendly party currently in power.
  • Enemy combatants are being detained against Geneva conventions and normal law. No representation, no trial, no appeal.

Are some of those good things bad or vice versa in your opinion? Do you see any other positive points I might have missed?

146

[quote]Professor X wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:

I’m not going to say the “F word” but the signs are all there. I actually listen to Limbaugh and Hannity a few times a week and the relentless attack on academia in particular makes me cringe.

I agree with this. I heard one conservative commentator state that he wasn’t going to allow his son to go to college at a school that was so filled with liberal professors (I wish I could remember the specifics…may have been Hannity… but he hosts his own show and I rarely watch it enough to remember). Since when are we judging education for our kids by the political views of the teachers? It has almost become a lynch mob mentality where anyone who doesn’t agree with the extreme conservative right is viewed as near insane and looked upon as someone who needs to be shunned by society. I truly don’t understand why people can’t see the bigotry and closed-mindedness in that situation. Conservatives now see themselves as “above” the opinions of any others in America. It has gotten ridiculous and will get even worse until their ego hits a brick wall. It can only go so far…I hope. They have left members of their own party behind apparently in an attempt to uphold these “values”. Some say they don’t agree with everything, but rarely disagree with this type of mentality when it comes to the opinions of others.[/quote]

We began judging schools by the political views of the teachers when the teachers could not keep their political views out of the classroom!

147

[quote]ZEB wrote:

We began judging schools by the political views of the teachers when the teachers could not keep their political views out of the classroom!
[/quote]

You couldn’t have written a more generic answer. Exactly how many teachers do you know of personally who teach like this? Rainjack gave a personal experience, but you will have to do much better to prove there is this nationwide conspiracy by all teachers to brainwash children into a particular poltical point of view. You all sound like the sky is falling and jump right on the bandwagon with every new issue that pops up in the “religious right” community. How do you all sleep at night with those sticks up your asses? Doesn’t it hurt?

As stated above, I do not agree with a teacher forcing views on a child or student. If your grades are hurting because you won’t write a paper on the evils of Bush, there is a huge problem. However, I seriously doubt the problem is this big and this dangerous to your poor children’s psyche. I swear you all sound like parents hoping their kids aren’t gay only you are relating it to liberalism.

“Please, Lord, don’t let Bobby be a liberal when hits puberty…we’ll never get those PETA stickers off the Volvo without real paint damage.”

148

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You all sound like the sky is falling and jump right on the bandwagon with every new issue that pops up in the “religious right” community. How do you all sleep at night with those sticks up your asses? Doesn’t it hurt?[/quote]

For someone who shuns labels, and refuses to be ‘put in a box’ - you’re mighty quick on the draw.

[quote]As stated above, I do not agree with a teacher forcing views on a child or student. If your grades are hurting because you won’t write a paper on the evils of Bush, there is a huge problem. However, I seriously doubt the problem is this big and this dangerous to your poor children’s psyche. I swear you all sound like parents hoping their kids aren’t gay only you are relating it to liberalism.

“Please, Lord, don’t let Bobby be a liberal when hits puberty…we’ll never get those PETA stickers off the Volvo without real paint damage.” [/quote]

Read up on Dr. Churchill. Read up on the Jewish Alumni Association at Columbia University. There’s 2 examples right there of folks that are getting fed up with college profeesors who can’t seem to separate their politics from their jobs.

I had a school teacher that, when Reagan got shot told a group of 15 year-olds that him dying would be the best thing that could happen to this country. Hardly a reason to get fired, but hardly the place for a teacher to be waxing political.

It’s far more pervasive than you want to admit to, Prof.

149

[quote] You all sound like the sky is falling and jump right on the bandwagon with every new issue that pops up in the “religious right” community. How do you all sleep at night with those sticks up your asses? Doesn’t it hurt?

[/quote]

Dude, if someone wrote about your views with this kind of language you’d be a little upset, I think.
Just because one doesn’t care for liberalism–at least as it’s become–and political correctness–doesn’t make one a member of the religious right. It certainly doesn’t mean there’s a stick up anyones ass.
At least, no more than the stick up the asses of…say the black congressional leadership.

Howard Dean, remarking on how the black congressional caucus had done great work for the democrats, said “look around, do you suppose the republicans could get this many people of color all in the room together?”
There was laughter.
Then he continued “Unless of course they brought in the hotel staff.”
Now…I don’t know about you, but the political correctness crowd and the liberal crowd are the ones who keep pointing out race and gender and sex differences. The right side of the aisle tends to focus more on little things like qualifications and ability. So why is it that the right side is the one that always has to defend itself against “when did you stop beating your wife” questions, and even when we give you evidence of certain activity, it gets dismissed?

150

and what’s generic about the answer? It’s a legitimate answer. IF teachers kept their beliefs and politics out of the classroom, IT wouldn’t be an issue–at least not for me.
But they can’t, so it’s an issue.

151

Pro X,

“Exactly how many teachers do you know of personally who teach like this?”

In my personal experience, having a major in the liberal arts field, I could name at least a dozen.

“Rainjack gave a personal experience, but you will have to do much better to prove there is this nationwide conspiracy by all teachers to brainwash children into a particular poltical point of view.”

I don’t if it is a conspiracy, you’ll have to ask JTF, but there is a movement that education should ‘speak truth to power’ - that’s why there is stifling political correctness on campus and immense dogma stemming from the teachers’ union. It’s also why a Ward Churchill - with dubious academic credentials, flimsy scholarship, and a cloud of fraud over his ethnicity - can get a job paying $116k as Chair of Ethnic Studies at a great state school.

If you don’t think this is a problem, do yourself a favor and stop listening to the students - and listen to professors who belive it. I don’t think it is a systematic conspiracy at all, but the imbalance is there, and it has affected the quality of education in the worst way possible.

“You all sound like the sky is falling and jump right on the bandwagon with every new issue that pops up in the “religious right” community.”

Hogwash. I have never been a part of the “religious right” and I get tired of the scapegoating. Seems like whenever someone runs out of intellectual rope, they trot out some agenda of the “religious right”. My complaints over academia have nothing to do with God in the classroom or God outside the classroom. Moreover, the so-called “religious right” aren’t the ones clamoring for change in academia.

The problem is not religion, but intellectual honesty and integrity.

You’re shooting blanks.

“How do you all sleep at night with those sticks up your asses? Doesn’t it hurt?”

As bland as your zinger is, it is important to realize I don’t exactly lose sleep at night over whether the “cool kids” think I’m “square” or “have a stick up my ass”. I got over that in and around the 9th grade.

Pro X, maybe you should too - you’re overdue.

“However, I seriously doubt the problem is this big and this dangerous to your poor children’s psyche.”

I don’t know if it is dangerous to his psyche, but coming out of college after spending tens of thousands of dollars with no decent education is enough to harm my psyche. The problem is most of the professoriate are perfectly content to have a kid graduate without any sense of Western history as it pertains to the culture he/she lives in, no sense of critical thinking within the context of inquiry guided by reason, and no skill in the hard sciences or math so long as they got a taste of multiculturalism and a sociology class.

“I swear you all sound like parents hoping their kids aren’t gay only you are relating it to liberalism.”

“Please, Lord, don’t let Bobby be a liberal when hits puberty…we’ll never get those PETA stickers off the Volvo without real paint damage.”

You’re a doctor, right?

152

In my school my senior (maybe junior…) year there was a big movement on campus for the black students to have their own house.
BSU, Black Students United. And they got it. So they were able to have a place where they lived where there were no white people welcome to live. Now, through no fault of my own, I was born and grew up in an area where the first black person I ever laid eyes on in real life was a New England Patriot at a seminar, and I never socialized with a person of color until 7th grade.
So I got to college, and I was excited for the opportunity to learn and explore from the black kids. And what did I get? Shunned. As a Conservative I became a “redneck”…and why is it that I can be called a redneck in a way that’s meant to be hurtful but I can’t use a term in response?
And the faculty and administration backed the BSU. At the same time, they were working feverishly to abolish seperate houses for the sci-fi geeks, the Eco-terrorists, and the Greek houses. Because having people seperate didn’t follow the Beloit College traditions etc.
So what’s so special about the black kids?
How am I supposed to feel about this?
And then, I get labeled as following the “religious right”–I’m not religious, and most of that crowd could spontaneously combust and I wouldn’t care. I got told I was a racist–by two black students and a government professor, because I was ballsy enough to admit in class that I listened to Rush Limbaugh. Never mind that Rush was thrilled and proud when Clarence Thomas was able to perform his marriage ceremony. Never mind that Clarence Thomas got where he is without affirmative action, and never mind that he was appointed by a republican.
The point of all this is that I get tired of being labeled. I get tired of people attacking my intelligence, or the intelligence of others who believe the way I do, simply because it’s not the way you do.
Bush is a moron.
Well…except that according to the US Military induction tests, his IQ is actually higher than John Kerry’s, and Kerry is supposed to be a world beater.
Condi Rice is supposed to be a moron?
Well…if she was a democrat working for a democrat, and someone had posted that she was a moron, what would be happening right now?
You guys need to update your material if you’re going to argue. The days of people on the right side of the aisle just shutting up are over, and the more you guys on the other side yip and yap and fall back to name calling, the more you expose yourselves.
Peace all–
–T.

153

and Paul Craig Roberts is NOT a conservative republican, dammit. He’s a nutjob.

154

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:

We began judging schools by the political views of the teachers when the teachers could not keep their political views out of the classroom!

You couldn’t have written a more generic answer. Exactly how many teachers do you know of personally who teach like this? Rainjack gave a personal experience, but you will have to do much better to prove there is this nationwide conspiracy by all teachers to brainwash children into a particular poltical point of view. You all sound like the sky is falling and jump right on the bandwagon with every new issue that pops up in the “religious right” community. How do you all sleep at night with those sticks up your asses? Doesn’t it hurt?

As stated above, I do not agree with a teacher forcing views on a child or student. If your grades are hurting because you won’t write a paper on the evils of Bush, there is a huge problem. However, I seriously doubt the problem is this big and this dangerous to your poor children’s psyche. I swear you all sound like parents hoping their kids aren’t gay only you are relating it to liberalism.

“Please, Lord, don’t let Bobby be a liberal when hits puberty…we’ll never get those PETA stickers off the Volvo without real paint damage.”[/quote]

Professor X:

Many of your liberal rants (go ahead deny you are a liberal I rather enjoy that) have been pretty off base in the past. However, nothing that you have typed yet comes close to your disbelief that College Professors and Public School teachers as well, for that matter, are liberal!

You obviously don’t have kids in public school (right?). If you did there is no way you could have such a ridiculous comment. Sometimes it’s subtle things. Such as walking into my childs third grade class a few years ago and seeing a phot of Hillary Clinton on her bulletin board. I had fun with it, I pointed and screamed. Needless to say the teahcer didn’t think it was funny. Then again, with few exceptions, most liberals are humorless.

I would bet that teachers overall voted for Kerry by about 3 to 1. I wonder if there is a place we could look this up. Your next argument would be “Zeb you cannot prove this.” I can’t “prove” (didn’t see it) that a Bear craps in the woods either but when I go out there and see the crap that is a good indication! One only has to go into any public school and speak to a a few teachers to realize how liberal they are. The funny thing is, many don’t even try to hide it. It’s sort of a “we all hate Bush” Attitude.

As far as Colleges go where do you think “relativism” (which has only one virtue, tolerence) came from? Liberal Colleges! Do you think it’s a mere coincidence that over 70% of all students who actually voted, (Yes, I’m thankful for student apathy) voted for Kerry? (That figure can be checked if you like).

Honestly, I have never heard of anyone denying that most Universities are liberal and that it does in fact taint the students political thinking. There does not have to be an essay about why President Bush is bad. It only has to be one or two subtle comments per day throughout the school year (more or less). When you are in a position of authority you can sway opinions in very subtle ways. I’m sure you must understand how that works…no?

The next thing you will want proof that most media is liberal!

LOL!

155

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
So why is it that the right side is the one that always has to defend itself against “when did you stop beating your wife” questions, and even when we give you evidence of certain activity, it gets dismissed?[/quote]

How does it appear I am dismissing all actions of this? I have already written that if it was occuring, I would also try to stop it. However, I have been given two large instances of this nationwide by Rainjack (which are legitimate answers) when the question I asked was, WHO DO YOU KNOW PERSONALLY THAT IS DOING THIS? I am not talking about a couple of instances you can pull from the headlines. I know that police profiling is a problem. How do I know this? It happens to me. Rainjack is the only one I have heard give a personal experience. I am asking for where the rest are for this to be a national emergency.

156

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

I don’t know if it is dangerous to his psyche, but coming out of college after spending tens of thousands of dollars with no decent education is enough to harm my psyche. The problem is most of the professoriate are perfectly content to have a kid graduate without any sense of Western history as it pertains to the culture he/she lives in, no sense of critical thinking within the context of inquiry guided by reason, and no skill in the hard sciences or math so long as they got a taste of multiculturalism and a sociology class. [/quote]

This is where we differ on a concept. I don’t believe it is the “university’s job” to give a sense of critical thinking within the context of inquiry. I do believe it is their job to put it to the test, but not to teach this skill. That skill comes from YOU as the parent. Without it, your kids grow up, go to college, and become one of the many who spend weekdays skipping class in favor of bong hits and video games. I think some of you have given the schools too much of a job when most of that rides on you. I can’t tell you the number of friends I had that simply didn’t go to class and didn’t even graduate. That wasn’t the university’s fault, however. Of course, if that school had FAILED the student because they didn’t follow a particular political point of view, then that would be the school’s fault and the only point worth getting riled about.

157

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
In my school my senior (maybe junior…) year there was a big movement on campus for the black students to have their own house.
BSU, Black Students United. And they got it. So they were able to have a place where they lived where there were no white people welcome to live. Now, through no fault of my own, I was born and grew up in an area where the first black person I ever laid eyes on in real life was a New England Patriot at a seminar, and I never socialized with a person of color until 7th grade.
So I got to college, and I was excited for the opportunity to learn and explore from the black kids. And what did I get? Shunned. As a Conservative I became a “redneck”…and why is it that I can be called a redneck in a way that’s meant to be hurtful but I can’t use a term in response?
And the faculty and administration backed the BSU. At the same time, they were working feverishly to abolish seperate houses for the sci-fi geeks, the Eco-terrorists, and the Greek houses. Because having people seperate didn’t follow the Beloit College traditions etc.
So what’s so special about the black kids?
How am I supposed to feel about this?
And then, I get labeled as following the “religious right”–I’m not religious, and most of that crowd could spontaneously combust and I wouldn’t care. I got told I was a racist–by two black students and a government professor, because I was ballsy enough to admit in class that I listened to Rush Limbaugh. Never mind that Rush was thrilled and proud when Clarence Thomas was able to perform his marriage ceremony. Never mind that Clarence Thomas got where he is without affirmative action, and never mind that he was appointed by a republican.
The point of all this is that I get tired of being labeled. I get tired of people attacking my intelligence, or the intelligence of others who believe the way I do, simply because it’s not the way you do.
Bush is a moron.
Well…except that according to the US Military induction tests, his IQ is actually higher than John Kerry’s, and Kerry is supposed to be a world beater.
Condi Rice is supposed to be a moron?
Well…if she was a democrat working for a democrat, and someone had posted that she was a moron, what would be happening right now?
You guys need to update your material if you’re going to argue. The days of people on the right side of the aisle just shutting up are over, and the more you guys on the other side yip and yap and fall back to name calling, the more you expose yourselves.
Peace all–
–T.[/quote]

Wait a second, first you are relating this topic to right of minorities? Second, in a society where you could actually grow up and have no interaction with a black person, you don’t understand why the students on campus who were minorities would want the same rights that non-minorities had? Let me ask you, were there all white fraternities on campus? Let me guess, you didn’t notice those. Are you honestly saying their only problem with the previous system was that they wanted segregation? I would like to see some real factas as to what they stood for and why. I get the feeling you severely missed the point.

158

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sometimes it’s subtle things. Such as walking into my childs third grade class a few years ago and seeing a phot of Hillary Clinton on her bulletin board. I had fun with it, I pointed and screamed. Needless to say the teahcer didn’t think it was funny. Then again, with few exceptions, most liberals are humorless. [/quote]

If this is the first one that popped into your mind, I stand by my original statement. regardless of what you want to believe, Hillary may represent a strong woman in politics, period, to many women. Therefore, having a picture of her in the classroom might not be anymore of a political statement than having a picture of Martin Luther King, only with a different meaning behind it. That doesn’t mean they were forcing your kid to be liberal. Ths issue shouldn’t even be whether the majority of teachers might be liberal. Who cares? The only issue is whether they are forcing the views on your children in classes related to political views…not MATH.

159

Pro X,

“This is where we differ on a concept. I don’t believe it is the “university’s job” to give a sense of critical thinking within the context of inquiry.”

Hmmm.

“I do believe it is their job to put it to the test, but not to teach this skill.”

But that’s part of the problem - a student can’t put free inquiry to the test when the environment doesn’t support it.

“That skill comes from YOU as the parent.”

No doubt that it starts with the parents. But the schools must take up the responsibility as well, else why bother with formal education at all?

I do agree, however, that the parents’ role is paramount.

“I think some of you have given the schools too much of a job when most of that rides on you.”

Well, when it comes to higher education, don’t forget that the kids are actually adults. As I said, I agree in parents takign responsibility for their child’s direction, but I’m not talking about college standing in place of the parents left behind at home - I am talking about making sure college kids graduate with a broad-minded education.

To suggest somehow that college doesn’t “provide” the skill of free inquiry, but should “promote” it is nothing more than to cavil. Of course the foundation is laid by the parents, but the skill of “thinking critically” is absolutely taught a higher levels of education.

You’re doctor, that’s exactly what you learned, no?

“Of course, if that school had FAILED the student because they didn’t follow a particular political point of view, then that would be the school’s fault and the only point worth getting riled about.”

Schools fail kids all the time, at multiple levels of education. That’s not the only problem - but we’re not facing an either-or here. Therapeutic approaches to education - ie, it’s more important to make a student feel better about himself than demand he/she get the knowledge and skills he/she needs for life - are the first thing eroding the quality of education.

160

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Schools fail kids all the time, at multiple levels of education. That’s not the only problem - but we’re not facing an either-or here. Therapeutic approaches to education - ie, it’s more important to make a student feel better about himself than demand he/she get the knowledge and skills he/she needs for life - are the first thing eroding the quality of education. [/quote]

But that isn’t the doing of “liberal professors”. That is the doing of society as a whole. In the end, it still falls back on the parents to correct that issue. My parents were pretty strict. In fact, I will go as far as to say they were overly strict considering, for the most part, I was a pretty good kid growing up. Caring about self esteem issues came in dead last compared to staying on my ass as far as grades. Much of it I even resented and will not go as far with any kids I might have in the future (ie. even though I was on the Dean’s List and Who’s Who in American Colleges and Universities, I would get reemed if my scores contained a “B” in organic chemistry, the hardest class I had at the time). My point is, none of the goals of the student reside in the education system. They are a foundation laid in the home. If you rely on the school to provide these goals and this drive, then you can’t complain when it falls short.

College didn’t teach me
“free inquiry”. I stayed in the library during some of my free time because I wanted knowledge. It came from my desire to know more. I may have originally learned how to research scientific studies in medical journals in high school, but what kept me looking through them in college was not a set of outlined curriculum…it was from me wanting to understand the world around me. I don’t have to tell you that this is not the concern of even most students in college. It isn’t even on their list of priorities. Most won’t go to a library unless it is a direct part of their course work. You don’t teach someone to want knowledge at college level. If that hasn’t become a part of who they are much earlier on in life than that, it is a chracter trait they will simply never develop unless it is graded. Then, they will soon forget it later.

College is for development of a professional view of the world around the student. It takes all of the skills learned earlier in life and tries to hone them, not teach them…outside of learning their desired major and the information involved. If they haven’t been learned at the base level by that point, then the child has either been stunted in mental growth until that point and/or they will fall for any point of view that is first to enlighten them. That is why you are there…to teach them who to follow, when to listen, when to lead, and when to shut the fuck up…and that is as a child.

Liberals are not to blame if your child wants to be a liberal at college level. Hell, by that age, don’t you think it is their choice?