Five Morons

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You seem to look hard for others who support your views. I have my views because I see the world this way. I don’t carry them because of any other pseudo-famous person on the planet. Are you sure you think for yourself? It doesn’t appear that way.

Are you even reading what I write? There is NO ONE on here espousing the views I hold.

If I were “look(ing) hard for others who support (my) views” - I certainly wouldn’t be the only one on this thread writing what I’m writing.

Surely if you use your GenX brain for more than a couple of seconds you can come up with a slightly better post than your last one. If you’re tired of the argument, take a nap and come back when you can come back better than that.
[/quote]

I think you are the one missing the point. You keep connecting me with people I don’t even listen to. I never watched Micheal Moore’s film and don’t listen to anyone else you wrote about. Therefore, my thoughts are my own. Instead of dealing with me on that level, you resort to throwing my words in with those you call “weirdos” as if to avoid the issue. I could care less who else in the world holds the same view as me. I don’t hold my views for the sake of being part of the most popular crowd. It would appear you do. You claim you are right and then prove it because the majority thinks like you. Then you claim to think for yourself? Which is it?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I apologize for what must have seemed to you as me being unable to argue.[/quote]

I’m not feeling the sincerity…

Whatever. You’re still not arguing the point. Ad hominem attacks, name calling, blah-blah-blah.

Well, of course not. If things look like they’re going that way, you’ll pull out and blame the U.N. and/or your allies for not doing their part.

The thing is: I’m really hoping that you succeed in Iraq. I’d be a real shame if after all that effort and loss of life, the region remained in chaos or had another islamic republic appear.

I can admit that the plan of establishing a true democracy in the Middle East, as a stable, peaceful base to eventually pacify the region has some merits.

But, in my opinion, the current execution of that plan sucks.

In any event, we’ll see, won’t we?

Really? Damn! I’m canceling my subscribtion right this minute.

The same folks? Of those 19 terrorists, 15 were from Saudi Arabia and none of the remaining 4 were Iraqis (or Afghans). Why aren’t you invading Saudi Arabia and replacing that dictatorship with a democracy? Aren’t Saudis worthy of your gift of Freedom™? Oh, my bad. I forgot that those dictators are your allies. Right. And they’ve got you by the balls, oil wise. So… let’s hit the nearest convenient neighbor. Hey, look, Iraq’s been weakened by 1 unfinished war and by 10 years of sanctions. That should be easy enough right?

At this point, I’d settle for simple, basic reasoning. But I’m not holding my breath.

Why are you frustrated? You’ve got what you want. The war is being fought. Your president is in power (he even got elected this time)… What more do you want? For everyone to agree with you?

I kinda miss the US where the free exchange of ideas was encouraged; the US where having a differing opinion was respected.

But I guess those were just “pussy ideas.”

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I don’t think the most powerful nation in the history of the world should ever negotiatie from a position of of weakness, or fear. We have the biggest stick on the globe, and when we start talking to a rogue nation, it should be blatently obvious to even the most detatched of dictators that we will use that stick. There is nothing wrong with negotiating. But that does not mean we cow-down and act like a bunch of Euro-centric cowards.[/quote]

The problem with that attitude is that you can’t build lasting trust on it. You can cow a “rogue nation” through sheer intimidation; but that creates resentment; fosters hate. The people feel disrespected, bullied. All the perfect ingredients for terrorism to flourish. And when some group, somewhere manage to get their own stick, they’ll hit back. Do you think 9/11 was just some random act of senseless violence?

You are the most powerful nation in the history of the world; and you can either act responsably and use that power and might wisely, or you can go the easy way and bully and intimidate your way around. One way rallies the world around you, the other one isolates you and makes you more enemies.

It’s all up to you.

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
There were plenty of questions asked, in the form of UN sanctions, and requests for disclosures and inspections. Sadaam was less then forthcoming, and at times was even threatening.[/quote]

Part of the reason people are so worried about this administration is that those statements were NOT TRUE in the lead up to Iraq.

The evidence and reason for invading Iraq was outdated, false and OUTRIGHT manufactured. We were played - and they’re doing it all over again with Iran. Just like Paul Craig Roberts said in this original post, if our goal is to attack Iran, the evidence will be presented to look like it was our only option.

I happen to not be totally anti-war and if you listen to Rainjack you would think I’m a liberal, crazy, ABB. The truth is I’m just anti-bullshit.

Most of the articles below deal with info and facts people were stating BEFORE the war - the situation we are in right now had nothing to do with lack of intelligence but everything to do with a greedy, corrupt administration hell-bent on self destruction.

Inspectors Call U.S. Tips ‘Garbage’
Feb. 20, 2003

In fact, the U.S. claim that Iraq is developing missiles that could hit its neighbors - or U.S. troops in the region, or even Israel - is just one of the claims coming from Washington that inspectors here are finding increasingly unbelievable. The inspectors have become so frustrated trying to chase down unspecific or ambiguous U.S. leads that they’ve begun to express that anger privately in no uncertain terms.

U.N. sources have told CBS News that American tips have lead to one dead end after another.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml

Hackworth: Bad Call on Iraq
Aug 6, 2003
"Before sounding off, I’d always ring former Marine and weapons inspector Scott Ritter and bounce the hot skinny off him. And this brave and so far most prescient analyst would always shoot it down: “Hack, Saddam doesn’t have WMD. Full stop.”

Ritter Right About Iraq
January 14, 2005

Remember Ritter? In a column in 2002, I wrote about the square-jawed former U.S. Marine and United Nations weapons inspector, who was in Wichita several months before the invasion of Iraq, giving a talk - no, a plea - about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

He was adamant: Saddam Hussein had no WMDs – at least none of any consequence or that posed an imminent danger to the United States. Certainly nothing that would warrant a rushed invasion. “We can’t go to war based on rhetoric and speculation,” he told the crowd. “We’d better make sure there is a threat out there worth fighting.”

He argued that 90 percent to 95 percent of Saddam’s WMDs had been dismantled by the U.N. inspection team in which he served from 1991 to 1998. And that Saddam was otherwise well-contained by U.S. forces.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0114-40.htm

U.S. went to war on a lie, Senate report says
By DOUGLAS JEHL
New York Times News Service

WASHINGTON - In a scathing, unanimous report, the Senate Intelligence Committee said Friday (Saturday in Manila) that the most pivotal assessments used to justify the war against Iraq had been unfounded, unreasonable and reflected major missteps on the part of American intelligence agencies.

The detailed, 511-page report, the result of a yearlong review, found in particular that the stark prewar judgment by American intelligence agencies that Iraq possessed chemical and biological weapons had not been substantiated by the agencies? own reporting at the time.

‘Most of the major key judgments’ in an October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq’s illicit weapons were ‘either overstated, or were not supported by, the underlying intelligence reporting,’ the committee report said.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=WORLD&oid=54899

Doubts raised on Saddam theory in 2001
October 4, 2004
The Guardian

And the only country who used WMD’s in this war?..

U.S. ADMITS NAPALM USE

“American pilots dropped the controversial incendiary agent napalm on Iraqi troops during the advance on Baghdad,” according to the Independent. “The attacks caused massive fireballs that obliterated several Iraqi positions.”

The Pentagon denied using napalm at the time, but Marine pilots and their commanders have confirmed that they used an upgraded version of the weapon against dug-in positions…

A 1980 UN convention banned the use against civilian targets of napalm, a terrifying mixture of jet fuel and polystyrene that sticks to skin as it burns. The US, which did not sign the treaty, is one of the few countries that makes use of the weapon. It was employed notoriously against both civilian and military targets in the Vietnam war.

The upgraded weapon, which uses kerosene rather than petrol, was used in March and April, when dozens of napalm bombs were dropped near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the Tigris river, south of Baghdad.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000522.html

[quote]hoosierdaddy wrote:
On what Orbitalboner wrote:

ok i had the wrong impression of you, i apologize, that originial post of yours was kind of confusing, but by the same token, your thinking is flawed, sadaam wasn’t really a religious fundamentalist, merely a tyrant of a dictator, which begs the answer to the question (which isn’t directed at you), if that was the final justification of invading iraq, then why aren’t we invading countries with other similar situations?[/quote]

Iraq flat out violated a 1 on 1 treaty with us. That means the war that ended in 91 was back on. Now, the first invasion was a different matter. In retrospect, I think it should have gotten a lot more criticism. Bush II was following the rules of war and peace that have been established by history: You want peace, follow your treaty. That’s the valid justification. Alterior motives: maybe, probably, if you can rightfully justify going to a war that also has alterior “perks”, thats a bonus, but it doesn’t mean there wasn’t a valid justification.

JTF,

Iraq did not comply willingly nor thoroughly with the treaty imposed on them after Desert Storm. Sadaam Hussein made comments suggesting that he had nuclear weapons, comments that were made with a tone of defiance towards the treaty and the US in particular, which could be seen as a threat.

Without even going into why it would be tied to 9-11 or terrorism, there are plenty of instances of Sadaam being uncooperative, deceptive, and threatening militarily, in violation of the treaty and UN resolutions. The UN is worthless if it does not enforce the rules it makes.

And here’s an interesting aside, since you seem to like articles so much.

Many Helped Iraq Evade Sanctions on Weapons
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16142-2004Oct7.html

[quote]pookie wrote:
Why are you frustrated? You’ve got what you want. The war is being fought. Your president is in power (he even got elected this time)… What more do you want? For everyone to agree with you?

I kinda miss the US where the free exchange of ideas was encouraged; the US where having a differing opinion was respected.

But I guess those were just “pussy ideas.”[/quote]

Has anyone silenced you on here yet? I don’t think I have even tried. Has anyboby tried to silence anyone on this thread? Has Micheal Moore been incarcerated? I turn on the news, or read the paper, and I still see folks running down the war. How can they do that in such an oppressive society? As far as I can tell the free exchange of ideas is still working just like it has for the last 230 years.

You must have a problem with our freedom to throw the bullshit flag when it is warranted.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think you are the one missing the point. You keep connecting me with people I don’t even listen to. I never watched Micheal Moore’s film and don’t listen to anyone else you wrote about. Therefore, my thoughts are my own. Instead of dealing with me on that level, you resort to throwing my words in with those you call “weirdos” as if to avoid the issue. I could care less who else in the world holds the same view as me. I don’t hold my views for the sake of being part of the most popular crowd. It would appear you do. You claim you are right and then prove it because the majority thinks like you. Then you claim to think for yourself? Which is it?
[/quote]

This is why I love to argue with you. If I were to look back over the threads in which you and I have debated, I would bet that all of them turn into a “you missed my point - no you missed my point” argument.

We trade posts reclarifying, in vain, our points - and I don’t think either of us can crawl off their stubborn stool long enough to listen to the other. If it is done - It is not evident in either your, or my posts.

But I’ll bow to you on this - you are indeed a renegade thinker. Your ideas are soley the product of your own thought.

They just sound like I’ve heard them about a million times before.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Has anyone silenced you on here yet? I don’t think I have even tried. Has anyboby tried to silence anyone on this thread? Has Micheal Moore been incarcerated? I turn on the news, or read the paper, and I still see folks running down the war. How can they do that in such an oppressive society? As far as I can tell the free exchange of ideas is still working just like it has for the last 230 years.

You must have a problem with our freedom to throw the bullshit flag when it is warranted.
[/quote]

How convenient for you to skip the main part of the argument I made in that post… What’s the matter, couldn’t find that link on Fox News where the 9/11 hijackers are shown to be all Iraqis directly related to Saddam?

Or did you just realize that the old Saddam/Al Qaeda link theory had already been discredited time and time again and thought it better to bullshit on some unrelated matter and hope no one sees you running away…?

See, that’s what rotten with the current “exchange of ideas that’s still working…blah blah jingoistic drivel…” If you counter ideas simply by making up stuff and then presenting it as “fact” it doesn’t work. Anyone can argue his point if he’s allowed to pull facts out from his ass and have them accepted as gospel.

The current admininistration has been wrong on just about every reason they’ve given the public to justify the war… but it seems that if you repeat it enough on all the news channel, everyday, all year long; eventually the public buys it and supports your fantasy view of reality and backs your fictional reasons for war.

Saddam/Al Qaeda link? Nope. WMDs? Nada. Containment not working. Oops, it was. Yellowcake uranium? No, sorry. A quick, short, decisive campaing? Bzzzzt! But thanks for playing. Welcomed as liberators and saviors? Hardly. Saddam was “an immediate threat to the US”. Puh-lease. The inspections weren’t working? Well, they didn’t find anything, but it seems there was nothing to find… and so on, ad nauseam.

pookie,

What news sources do you find credible?

Please list several.

Thanks.

JeffR

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Bush has more honor in his shrivled up little dick than the UN has seen since 1945.

[/quote]

I generally don’t participate in these discussions because many of the debaters so quickly stoop to personal attacks. At the risk of making a generalization, I think that a majority of the people in these types of threads are guilty of the same fallacy as the media, pundits, and politicians: they argue their party line, rather than their beliefs. Or, more accurately, they base their beliefs on the party line, rather than really thinking for themselves.

That being said, I commend rainjack! I’m STILL not sure which side he’s on after that comment – well said!

(And no, I’m not being sarcastic!)

[quote]comfortablynumb wrote:
why doesn’t north korea invade the USA? i mean we have nukes thus we should be invaded right?[/quote]

Now, here I go, getting into trouble. I just said I don’t post in these debates.

For the record, I voted for Bush. There. It’s out there.

That being said, for the longest time, I wondered if I was the only one thinking the thought comfortablynumb put down in writing.

Who are we to demand that other countries disarm when we ourselves have nuclear weapons?

Should we keep them? Hell yes. But since when can we make any such demand of others?

Pox wrote:

“You rarely answer my direct posts to you so here is another one.”

I thought that I answered nearly all of your posts directly. If I haven’t, I apologize.

“Are you so clueless that you have gone and picked a quote from last fall that was written humorously and carried it along since then to bring up at every chance you get as if anything else was meant? I wrote it and it happens to me on a regular basis. I made light of it, but that won’t erase the fact that it happens. Are you saying that this is never the case?”

I have a problem with you, POX. You rail against people “locking their car doors” when they see you. You make noise about Caucasian students ignoring you. Then you decide to give YOUR tests to people of your race ONLY.

Then you make bullshit comments about “white people being afraid of angry black men.”

You say things like: “Look in the fucking mirror next time you paint an entire group of people with the same biased brush.”

ISN’T THAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING?

You might find it “humorous” but I guarantee others don’t.

Turn it around and insert a racially insensitive remark aimed at you.

I’ll bet cash, you wouldn’t find it “humorous.”

“Beyond that, if I were you, I would allow others to speak for me. You lost credibility long ago and your posts are like reading the thoughts of a fifth grader to me now. Oh, and I meant that too so you had better quote me on that for future reference.”

It would be interesting to meet you. I’ll bet it would be you who would be surprised.

“I can throw that question you asked back at you as well. Are you saying Clinton never did anything good for the country. I never see you write anything good about clinton and you voted for Bush.”

Clinton signed the Balanced Budget Amendement.

“That is the same logic you just used. Let me know. This thread isn’t about Kerry. Why he is still on your mind constantly is beyond me. He was a poor overall candidate for the democratic party, however, in view of rights that seem to be lifted from us daily, I feel he was the lesser of two evils. That is in the past, however.”

Thanks for making my point.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:

It would be interesting to meet you. I’ll bet it would be you who would be surprised.

Clinton signed the Balanced Budget Amendement.

Thanks for making my point.

JeffR[/quote]

There was a point? I have no desire to meet you, however, I can assure you that if we did, you would be surprised that I don’t scare easily. I assume you meant what you wrote as if you are such a huge and scary white man that poor black little old me would whimper in reaction to your presence. Your last post to me comes across as having your feelings hurt because I don’t back down easily. You might want to get used to that. In fact, pm me and we’ll see if we can hook up.

I have written about my experiences in the past. If that offends you, I am anxious to understand why you think I shouldn’t talk about it. What have I written that is false? You are mad simply because I bring up the issue? Why would that upset you at all? I have no doubt that you have a problem with me. If you are anything like you come across reading between the lines of your posts, it doesn’t surprise me at all.

Please, expand on why I would be “surprised” to meet you. Are you that ugly? Do you scare little children? Is your neck a scary color red? Let me know.

[quote]pookie wrote:
How convenient for you to skip the main part of the argument I made in that post… What’s the matter, couldn’t find that link on Fox News where the 9/11 hijackers are shown to be all Iraqis directly related to Saddam?
[/quote]

Seeing as how you’ve been signed up for a whopping 3 months, you’ve evidently failed to read up on what goes on down here in the political threads. Had you done so, you would see thread after thread of this same argument.

Everything you have written in this post has been discussed time and agian. You have introduced nothing new. I don’t think my lack of response your tired arguments is avoiding anything. I have replied many many times. Just because you haven’t taken the time to read up on what has been discussed does not necessitate me regurgitating what has been said over and again. The argument is old, tired, and just a little bit played out.

[quote]PMiller wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Bush has more honor in his shrivled up little dick than the UN has seen since 1945.

That being said, I commend rainjack! I’m STILL not sure which side he’s on after that comment – well said!

(And no, I’m not being sarcastic!)
[/quote]

I was just making fun of middle-aged white Presidents.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
PMiller wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Bush has more honor in his shrivled up little dick than the UN has seen since 1945.

That being said, I commend rainjack! I’m STILL not sure which side he’s on after that comment – well said!

(And no, I’m not being sarcastic!)

I was just making fun of middle-aged white Presidents.

[/quote]

Meaning all of them excluding Reagan… since he was elderly?

[quote]veruvius wrote:
rainjack wrote:
If you align yourself with freaks and wierdos, then expect to be labeled as such.

Wow. I think someone needs a hug.[/quote]

If you take a look at the real Bush haters I think rainjack hit it right on!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think you are the one missing the point. You keep connecting me with people I don’t even listen to. I never watched Micheal Moore’s film and don’t listen to anyone else you wrote about. Therefore, my thoughts are my own. Instead of dealing with me on that level, you resort to throwing my words in with those you call “weirdos” as if to avoid the issue. I could care less who else in the world holds the same view as me. I don’t hold my views for the sake of being part of the most popular crowd. It would appear you do. You claim you are right and then prove it because the majority thinks like you. Then you claim to think for yourself? Which is it?

This is why I love to argue with you. If I were to look back over the threads in which you and I have debated, I would bet that all of them turn into a “you missed my point - no you missed my point” argument.

We trade posts reclarifying, in vain, our points - and I don’t think either of us can crawl off their stubborn stool long enough to listen to the other. If it is done - It is not evident in either your, or my posts.

But I’ll bow to you on this - you are indeed a renegade thinker. Your ideas are soley the product of your own thought.

They just sound like I’ve heard them about a million times before.
[/quote]

You have heard them a million times from the far left. You know how liberals hate to be called liberals. Odd huh?

Y’know, part of the difference between points of view centers around issues such as the following:

  1. The US military crushed the Iraqi military. End of story.

  2. The impact on life, US and otherwise, was huge and very probably not justified.

  3. There are reasons, not related to 9/11 and WMD’s for invading Iraq.

I think the warhawks focus on item number 1, obviously. Sure, the US military can systematically take apart most military foes. However, taking apart an enemy military is only the beginning, as we see now in Iraq.

Warhawks like to call people estrogenic pussies for having concern for human beings that aren’t US citizens. Suffering in the world is obviously a Michael Moore’ian liberal media conspiracy. Taking out a military and government does not immediately and simply equal better lifestyles for a populace.

Finally, we get into the concept of whether or not a war was justified. There are many excuses, reasons or whatnot, but reasonable men can disagree whether it is the place of the US to enforce it’s views on the world. To me, this is the crux.

Did the US invade for the reasons that make it legal, WITHIN THE US, as opposed to some bullshit international determination? The US theoretically isn’t set up to act as an agressor, so there were hurdles to be jumped.

Instead of throwing the same tired party lines out, perhaps we can dig out the real crux of the matter, the real reason for disagreement, which is not that half the world is composed of pussies who roll over.

There are a lot of troubling issues around this war, and if you can drop the party politics, they should be pretty damned obvious. It is NOT wrong for the populace to be a detriment to the war machine – modern countries are not supposed to be aggressive war machines.

Dammit, the country is designed to make it hard to support external agression. What part of that is a problem? The part where the government relies on censorship to ensure public opinion does not get swayed?

Terrorism is an odd duck, it probably wasn’t really considered at the time the US was created. However, if terrorism was the target, it was pretty tangential when the war with Iraq was started.

However, to be clear, both sides have valid arguments, and it is damned well time for people to allow others to have a different interpretation and a different view without resorting to the name-calling and denigration.

Personally, I’d like to get to the crux of the matter and see just where the viewpoints differ. Is it a simple “might makes right” philosophy? Is it that the ends justify the means? Is it that some feel the US should impose a new world order?

Is it that anyone who opposes war is simply a pussy? Don’t those on the right agree that the US isn’t supposed to be able to be an aggressor, due to limits on use of military power? Let’s get into the nitty gritty.