[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’m not underestimating North Korea - you seem all to quick to underestimate the military capabilities of the United States.[/quote]
Hmmm. I think Iraq has shown us that pretty much everyone was overestimating the military capabilities of the US. The US seems to be straining, both militarily (not enough troops) and economically (emergency funds voted repeatedly by Congress, record deficits) just to maintain a presence of 150 000 to 200 000 men in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I’m sure that Iran and NK have both taken note and will negotiate at lot more forcefully; knowing full well the US can’t fight on 2, let alone 3 fronts by itself.
Yes, that’s exactly the kind of attitude everyone involved needs to have.
[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
The insurgents may be an impedance to progress, but they are not stopping it.[/quote]
Well, when you define progress as setting up a puppet government and then holding a dog-and-pony show election (no one knew the parties involved; they were no public debates; etc.) well then, yes, there is great progress.
I’m sure that Iran and NK have both taken note and will negotiate at lot more forcefully; knowing full well the US can’t fight on 2, let alone 3 fronts by itself.[/quote]
And this fact is what bothers me when people write about how every other country should fear us. They just got front row seats on American Military Strategy 101. Trust me, no one skipped class this semester. Hell, even if they did, they could have still caught every moment of it on CNN, Fox News or MSNBC later that night. They know how we respond and know our capabilities. They know are media coverage and the slant placed on it in view of the american people. They know our forces are SMALLER now and that our draft rates have gone down for new recruits. What should scare the shit out of more people than it is, is that after all of this, they are now coming to the forefront as the attention getters. Someone scared shitless of America wouldn’t respond the same. It is one thing to support your troops, and quite another to believe that they are unstoppable and that no one else in the world could possibly put a substantial dent in our forces. Underestimation. Maybe that is the code of the republican in this country. If they were right, could someone please tell me why we are still losing lives after we supposedly “WON” the war in Iraq so long ago?
Tecnically, the US has and incredibly advanced arsenal with satellites, invisible stealth planes, precision guided missiles, etc.
But eventually, you have to send in some troops to occupy a territory; and there the difference between a well trained US soldier and a insurgent civilian with an AK-47 is a lot smaller. The insurgent has home turf advantage, and probably a lot more will to fight than the US soldier. The insurgent is basically defending his home and family from an invading agressor; while the soldier was ordered there by his superiors and counts the days until he can come back to his wife and kids.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
That is utter bullshit and you know it. I have never claimed to be liberal yet you paint me as such and then put words in my mouth that I have personally never even heard myself. I don’t sit and watch much television, so your ridiculous post blaming me for the actions or words of another who I have never claimed to support are childish, inconsiderate, unprovoked, bullheaded, and self righteous. Look in the fucking mirror next time you paint an entire group of people with the same biased brush. Should I assume that all conservatives are this blind?[/quote]
You’re very quick to shuck the liberal label, but I was very careful not to use the ‘L’ word. I’ve called you an ABBer, and I said ‘your side’ - If your side is relplete with liberals and Euro-centric apologists - that is not my problem. It is not self-righteous. It is not unprovoked. It is not bullheaded. You are against the war. You have every right to that. You have every right to ream my ass if you disagree.
I’m simply calling bullshit where I see it. When you sit there and call my side mindless, or say we have ‘jehova-like’ belief in Bush - are you not guilty of the same thing you just finished ranting about? Look at those around you who are against the war. Against Bush. They are nut jobs and wackos. You are judged by the company you keep.
[quote]
It was you who just accused me of holding the same ideas as “JTF” and “GIN-Nosed Ted”, wasn’t it? Who is JTF, [/quote]
JustTheFacts - read some of his looney-assed posts.
Man - when you miss the point, you don’t mess around. Most folks will at least fake knowing WTF is going on. You blow right by that like a bull in a china closet. Your little rant funny, but so off the point that I can’t even be offended at your unveiled attempt to paint me as a geriatric hanger-onner.
I used references from the past because, believe it or not, the same folks who are heading up this ABB movement have been down this road before. And they’ve been wrong. I know that Gulf War I is ancient history. But the Anti-war folks were wrong then, too.
I’ll go slow for you here since you totally missed it at least once before - You want me to believe that you are like ‘nothing I’ve ever seen before’? Then quit walking like a duck and quacking like a duck. Did they have ducks where you grew up? That’s not slipping past you, is it? If you align yourself with freaks and wierdos, then expect to be labeled as such.
“correction scooter, the goal was to find and rid Iraq of WMDs. Finding Sadaam wasn’t the primary goal until the whole WMD turned up to be a cloud of dust.”
Correction: Read the President’s speeches circa 2002. You’ll find plenty of reasons we invaded.
It isn’t W’s fault that your mind is focused on one aspect only.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
If you align yourself with freaks and wierdos, then expect to be labeled as such. [/quote]
So, let me get this straight…everyone with the “republican” name badge is an upstanding american who cares about the troops and has apple-pie home made values, while everyone else is filling their ranks with freaks and weirdos. You’re right, that wasn’t self righteous at all.
“That is utter bullshit and you know it. I have never claimed to be liberal yet you paint me as such and then put words in my mouth that I have personally never even heard myself.”
Really? Yet you have never posted anything positive about W’s administration.
AND you voted for Kerry.
What would you call that.
“I don’t sit and watch much television, so your ridiculous post blaming me for the actions or words of another who I have never claimed to support are childish, inconsiderate, unprovoked, bullheaded, and self righteous. Look in the fucking mirror next time you paint an entire group of people with the same biased brush. Should I assume that all conservatives are this blind?”
My favorite!!! Yet you wrote, “Nothing scares white people more than an angry, opinionated Black Man.”
What do you call that? I fucking guarantee there are plenty of white people who would hand you your ass.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Hmmm. I think Iraq has shown us that pretty much everyone was overestimating the military capabilities of the US. The US seems to be straining, both militarily (not enough troops) and economically (emergency funds voted repeatedly by Congress, record deficits) just to maintain a presence of 150 000 to 200 000 men in Iraq and Afghanistan.[/quote]
We overthrew the standing Iraqi government in less than 2 weeks. We did the same in Afghanistan. I think Sadaam was more guilty of ‘misunderestimation’ than the U.S. was. We eliminated the threats that we went in to eliminate in record time. And instead of putting in a puppet regime as you accuse, we’ve stayed there in those countries to allow the citizens to be able to take control of their countries. It would be much cheaper and easier to shoot first and ask questions later, but we’ve decided to play nice and spend a shit load of money - not so much for the war effort, but in the rebuilding effort. There is a difference.
I certainly hope that Iran’s and North Korea’s leaders have paid attention to the swift and deadly way we have dismantled two governments.
You want to paint our military victories as defeats. You and ProfX go ahead and think that if you want, but ask Sadaam if he would think twice about challenging the U.S. a third time.
[quote]I’m not a war monger. I’m just not a chicken shit.
Yes, that’s exactly the kind of attitude everyone involved needs to have.[/quote]
I cannot believe the amount of estrogen flowing on this thread. Pussies.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, let me get this straight…everyone with the “republican” name badge is an upstanding american who cares about the troops and has apple-pie home made values, while everyone else is filling their ranks with freaks and weirdos. You’re right, that wasn’t self righteous at all.[/quote]
Once again - take a look around you. Take a relly good look at those on your side. You can call it whatever you want - anti-war, ant-Bush, democrat, liberal - whatever. TYhe stance you have taken is supported by freaks and weirdos: Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, John Kerry, John Edwards, Dean, Donna Pelosi, Canada, France, etc. If you’d like see more of the names on your roster just go to move-on.org.
How is me believing I’m right, and you’re wrong being self-righteous? Maybe I’m being an asshole, but I really fail to see where I’ve been self-righteous.
“That is utter bullshit and you know it. I have never claimed to be liberal yet you paint me as such and then put words in my mouth that I have personally never even heard myself.”
Really? Yet you have never posted anything positive about W’s administration.
AND you voted for Kerry.
What would you call that.
“I don’t sit and watch much television, so your ridiculous post blaming me for the actions or words of another who I have never claimed to support are childish, inconsiderate, unprovoked, bullheaded, and self righteous. Look in the fucking mirror next time you paint an entire group of people with the same biased brush. Should I assume that all conservatives are this blind?”
My favorite!!! Yet you wrote, “Nothing scares white people more than an angry, opinionated Black Man.”
What do you call that? I fucking guarantee there are plenty of white people who would hand you your ass.
Period.
JeffR[/quote]
You rarely answer my direct posts to you so here is another one. Are you so clueless that you have gone and picked a quote from last fall that was written humorously and carried it along since then to bring up at every chance you get as if anything else was meant? I wrote it and it happens to me on a regular basis. I made light of it, but that won’t erase the fact that it happens. Are you saying that this is never the case?
Beyond that, if I were you, I would allow others to speak for me. You lost credibility long ago and your posts are like reading the thoughts of a fifth grader to me now. Oh, and I meant that too so you had better quote me on that for future reference.
I can throw that question you asked back at you as well. Are you saying Clinton never did anything good for the country. I never see you write anything good about clinton and you voted for Bush. That is the same logic you just used. Let me know. This thread isn’t about Kerry. Why he is still on your mind constantly is beyond me. He was a poor overall candidate for the democratic party, however, in view of rights that seem to be lifted from us daily, I feel he was the lesser of two evils. That is in the past, however.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
So, let me get this straight…everyone with the “republican” name badge is an upstanding american who cares about the troops and has apple-pie home made values, while everyone else is filling their ranks with freaks and weirdos. You’re right, that wasn’t self righteous at all.
Once again - take a look around you. Take a relly good look at those on your side. You can call it whatever you want - anti-war, ant-Bush, democrat, liberal - whatever. TYhe stance you have taken is supported by freaks and weirdos: Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, John Kerry, John Edwards, Dean, Donna Pelosi, Canada, France, etc. If you’d like see more of the names on your roster just go to move-on.org.
How is me believing I’m right, and you’re wrong being self-righteous? Maybe I’m being an asshole, but I really fail to see where I’ve been self-righteous.
Being right does not make one self-righteous.[/quote]
You seem to look hard for others who support your views. I have my views because I see the world this way. I don’t carry them because of any other pseudo-famous person on the planet. Are you sure you think for yourself? It doesn’t appear that way.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
We overthrew the standing Iraqi government in less than 2 weeks. We did the same in Afghanistan.[/quote]
Yes, the Shock & Awe part was masterfully executed. But taking down a government leaves a “power vacuum” that then has a bunch of warring factions fighting to fill it. That’s the part that’s less masterful; in fact, you’re bumbling your way thru it. Iraq is not a stable place by any stretch of the imagination; and hopefully the goal of establishing a stable, peaceful and “west-friendly” government will succeed.
The current “regime” was put in place by the US and last time they came to visit, you had the head of goverment read canned speeches praising how well everything was going. Puh-lease.
…which has yet to happen in either one.
Therein lies the rub. You don’t have much choice in whether you stay there or not, since the “choice” of pulling out would give you a bloody civil war probably leading to a worst regime that Saddam had. Another Islamic Republic like Iran, with another Ayatollah that hates western infidels with a passion.
And that shitload of money is one long turd with no end in sight. The US can’t keep racking up record deficits like it’s been doing the past few years. Eventually, you won’t be able to sustain the effort anymore.
Just because you’re the richest nation doesn’t mean you can’t eventually go broke.
Victories or defeats are decided when the war is over. I don’t mean to disagree with your great president, but it ain’t over yet. Saying it doesn’t make it so.
Taking down a dictator is the easy part. Not leaving the region in a worse mess than it was before the war is quite another.
Ah yes, the old I’m-can’t-argue-my-point-so-I’ll-resort-to-name-calling technique. Amusing.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You seem to look hard for others who support your views. I have my views because I see the world this way. I don’t carry them because of any other pseudo-famous person on the planet. Are you sure you think for yourself? It doesn’t appear that way.
[/quote]
Are you even reading what I write? There is NO ONE on here espousing the views I hold.
If I were “look(ing) hard for others who support (my) views” - I certainly wouldn’t be the only one on this thread writing what I’m writing.
Surely if you use your GenX brain for more than a couple of seconds you can come up with a slightly better post than your last one. If you’re tired of the argument, take a nap and come back when you can come back better than that.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Ah yes, the old I’m-can’t-argue-my-point-so-I’ll-resort-to-name-calling technique. Amusing.[/quote]
I apologize for what must have seemed to you as me being unable to argue.
The problem is that you know absolutely nothing about our deficit, our war effort, or anything else remotely related to our country. I have very little patience with the Franco-Canadian types that get their info from CBC or the Globe and Mail and then think they have a fucking clue.
The U.S. will not ‘go broke’. If we do we will take the rest of the coat-tail riding world with us. Our deficits are not soley a function of the war effort in Iraq. In case you have forgotten, or more aptly, If the G&M failed to tell you - the U.S. was in a recession before January 1, 2001. Then we had a little problem with have 3000 people murdered by the same folks that you seem to think we have no business picking a fight with. But you probably have a Euro-centric reasoning for all of that.
The pussy part of my previous post is a direct result of the frustration from listening to the ABB crowd spew the same shit they’ve been spewing for the last 3 years.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
He’s doing what everyone on your side wanted him to do wrt to Iraq - multilateral talks. Hell he’s even pulled out and let neighboring countries try their hand at negotiating with those wackos.[/quote]
So you think diplomacy is a waste of time? Are you a “war citizen” that stands behind the “war president”? (Bush has called himself that). Is the best bet always to shoot first and ask questions later?
So you think diplomacy is a waste of time? Are you a “war citizen” that stands behind the “war president”? (Bush has called himself that). Is the best bet always to shoot first and ask questions later?[/quote]
What else would you call a president presiding over a nation in time of war? Do you think FDR or JFK were any less “war presidents”?
There were plenty of questions asked, in the form of UN sanctions, and requests for disclosures and inspections. Sadaam was less then forthcoming, and at times was even threatening. The truth of the matter is, going back to the Clinton administration, both sides of the aisle, and even Clinton, were concerned over Sadaam’s WMD potential. Additionally, post-911, the Democrats wrote to Bush, urging him to deal with Iraq’s WMD. Of course, they will write this all off(even the pre-Bush stuff) as poor info from the CIA.
[quote]veruvius wrote:
rainjack wrote:
He’s doing what everyone on your side wanted him to do wrt to Iraq - multilateral talks. Hell he’s even pulled out and let neighboring countries try their hand at negotiating with those wackos.
So you think diplomacy is a waste of time? Are you a “war citizen” that stands behind the “war president”? (Bush has called himself that). Is the best bet always to shoot first and ask questions later?[/quote]
There comes a time when talk (diplomacy) gets played out. We did it for over 10 years with Iraq. North Korea’s leadership is hardly of the stuff that trust is built on. So why stretch this out any longer? Bill Richardson is even starting to hint at the futility of reaching a lasting diplomatic end to N.K.'s nuke problem.
Am I a war monger? I said I’m not. But I’m not a chicken shit either. For those of you who seemed confused as to what I mean - I don’t think the most powerful nation in the history of the world should ever negotiatie from a position of of weakness, or fear. We have the biggest stick on the globe, and when we start talking to a rogue nation, it should be blatently obvious to even the most detatched of dictators that we will use that stick. There is nothing wrong with negotiating. But that does not mean we cow-down and act like a bunch of Euro-centric cowards.