I think that what McCain has shown over the last few weeks is an uncanny ability to out-flank just about everybody.
Reid essentially was “calling McCain out” by trying to link him to Bush and a bailout that is very unpopular with many Americans… and McCain went and Tailhooked his ass.
McCain=1 Reid=0
I agree, Mufasa - and I have to admit, I have been very impressed with it. McCain has had (and will have) missteps, but that is true of every candidate - and McCain is proving to be very cagey with his campaign.
Savvy is a good thing to be when you are president, regardless of your political affiliation.
If McCain can negotiate and string together the GOP votes to put the bailout together, coupled with some “red meat” concessions from the White House (like some kind of fist-to-nose on executives enjoying “golden parachutes”, etc.), he gets to be - as one commentator put it - “the man who saved the economy”.
It’s a risk, but it is gutsy and smart - and, once again, makes everyone focus on McCain and the bailout drama and puts Obama on his heels as a reactor, rather than a pro-actor, regardless of whether the debates are postponed or not.
I hope you’re right.[/quote]
He is right - but McCain has to EXECUTE this right and not say anything that can be taken as a sound bite to beat him over the head with.
My gut is that Reid fears that McCain shows up and quarterbacks a decent compromise, earning him praise as a bipartisan, problem-solving “doer” - while Obama stays out on the trail talking about healing the world’s soul, but doing nothing to lead on perhaps the most important economic policy work done since the New Deal.[/quote]
If McCain is as smart as some people want him to be, he would go into the senate and do everything in his power to DEFEAT the entire bailout package, and replace it with something much more palateable to the American voters. Taxpayers aren’t worried about wether the stupid $700B bailout plan has tons of oversight or none, they’re worried about where all that fucking money is going to come from (their pockets!). McCain could look like a freaking genius if if walked in and helped author a bill that allowed the Gov to either buy preferred stocks in failing companies, or LOAN them money until they get back to solvency. Bam! Bailout averted, McCain gets to show off his economic chops, while simultaneously playing up his Maverick-not-Bush-role, the taxpayers utter a collective sigh of relief. Win.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think that McCain is full of shit.
He’s smart enough to know that his being there won’t do anything one way or the other. He’s not the majority whip.
It was symbolic, and it sure as hell doesn’t mean anything. A gracious gesture but not important.
The debates are far more important than them being back in Washington.
But…what has it done to the campaign? THAT is the question that a smart guy like you should be asking himself.
I just think that it’s not really important. Politicians probably do one bullshit “symbolic” thing a day that they’ll never come through on… so what’s the difference…
The difference my friend is that the focus of the campaign is now on McCain. If Obama declines to suspend the debate he looks like a cheesy politician. If he goes along with McCain he looks like he’s following McCain “the leader”. When do you ask a question? When no matter how the other person answers…you win.
Brilliant move on the part of McCain.
[/quote]
It’s not that brilliant.
IF he doesn’t do the debate, he looks like he’s ducking him because he’s grandstanding.
If he does it reluctantly, you will be able to tell, and that will shoot him in the foot.
If he doesn, then he aquisced to Obama.
Was it intelligent? Not really the question. It was political grandstanding. Nothing more.
My gut is that Reid fears that McCain shows up and quarterbacks a decent compromise, earning him praise as a bipartisan, problem-solving “doer” - while Obama stays out on the trail talking about healing the world’s soul, but doing nothing to lead on perhaps the most important economic policy work done since the New Deal.
If McCain is as smart as some people want him to be, he would go into the senate and do everything in his power to DEFEAT the entire bailout package, and replace it with something much more palateable to the American voters. Taxpayers aren’t worried about wether the stupid $700B bailout plan has tons of oversight or none, they’re worried about where all that fucking money is going to come from (their pockets!). McCain could look like a freaking genius if if walked in and helped author a bill that allowed the Gov to either buy preferred stocks in failing companies, or LOAN them money until they get back to solvency. Bam! Bailout averted, McCain gets to show off his economic chops, while simultaneously playing up his Maverick-not-Bush-role, the taxpayers utter a collective sigh of relief. Win.[/quote]
If he would go in there, require that the trash loans be exempt from Sarbanes-Oxley, and set up an insurance corp like FDIC, or FSLIC which would insure the junk loans only upon default - he could walk through the streets naked, and be hailed as the savior.
But no one wants to take the easy route out. The government could fuck up putting air in a flat tire.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
<<< It’s not that brilliant.
IF he doesn’t do the debate, he looks like he’s ducking him because he’s grandstanding.
If he does it reluctantly, you will be able to tell, and that will shoot him in the foot.
If he doesn, then he aquisced to Obama.
Was it intelligent? Not really the question. It was political grandstanding. Nothing more.[/quote]
You mean the same John Mccain who has been begging Obama publicly all year to join in town hall discussions where actual citizens ask them questions and they talk to each other unscripted? Meetings that cowardly dwarf Obama has consistently ducked himself?
That John Mccain would look like he’s ducking him and would maybe do it reluctantly because he’s intimidated?
I still can’t make up my mind what I think of this move, but it had nothing to do with being afraid of Obama.
If you’re just saying that’s how it would appear then I disagree but take this post accordingly.
Whatever the situation was before, the debate should now proceed given that the Congress has agreed on the terms of the bailout. McCain’s presence and input will add nothing further. And it will come across that way.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
<<< It’s not that brilliant.
IF he doesn’t do the debate, he looks like he’s ducking him because he’s grandstanding.
If he does it reluctantly, you will be able to tell, and that will shoot him in the foot.
If he doesn, then he aquisced to Obama.
Was it intelligent? Not really the question. It was political grandstanding. Nothing more.
You mean the same John Mccain who has been begging Obama publicly all year to join in town hall discussions where actual citizens ask them questions and they talk to each other unscripted? Meetings that cowardly dwarf Obama has consistently ducked himself?
That John Mccain would look like he’s ducking him and would maybe do it reluctantly because he’s intimidated?
I still can’t make up my mind what I think of this move, but it had nothing to do with being afraid of Obama.
If you’re just saying that’s how it would appear then I disagree but take this post accordingly.[/quote]
I don’t believe he’d be in the race if he didn’t want to debate. I’m just saying how it looks.
And because he was so pompous and arrogant in announcing the move, this will far overshadow the requests the Obama allegedley refused
(I say allegedly because I don’t know about it, but I will look it up later.)
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Whatever the situation was before, the debate should now proceed given that the Congress has agreed on the terms of the bailout. McCain’s presence and input will add nothing further. And it will come across that way.[/quote]
Uhhhhhmmmm…Unless you are able to tell the future, there is no agreement. Tons of rumors, but no agreement - even in principle.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
<<< (I say allegedly because I don’t know about it, but I will look it up later.)[/quote]
Oh, but he did though. You have to know by now that I am no sycophantic Mccain defender and have been very critical of him many times.
However I have witnessed the ol codger make those invitations with my own eyes, even offering to fly Obama around to them on his own dime, publicly he did this, himself, not even through surrogates and the exalted one has refused every single time.
Even Billy Bob Clinton said as much on ABC this morning.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Whatever the situation was before, the debate should now proceed given that the Congress has agreed on the terms of the bailout. McCain’s presence and input will add nothing further. And it will come across that way.
Uhhhhhmmmm…Unless you are able to tell the future, there is no agreement. Tons of rumors, but no agreement - even in principle. [/quote]
I jumped the gun. I read something earlier today that turned out to be unsubstantiated.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Whatever the situation was before, the debate should now proceed given that the Congress has agreed on the terms of the bailout. McCain’s presence and input will add nothing further. And it will come across that way.
Uhhhhhmmmm…Unless you are able to tell the future, there is no agreement. Tons of rumors, but no agreement - even in principle. [/quote]
Lindsay Graham said the Dems lied about a deal so they could blame Mccain for killing it. Paraphrase, but that’s what he said.
I’d say that regardless of whether or not the congress agrees to thouroughly rape the taxpayers out of billions of dollars, it is in McCain’s best interest to show up at the debates. I think the old coot can hold his own on foriegn policy, I just hope he doesn’t answer every economic question with some variation of “Well, I was willing to delay this debate to help solve the current economic crisis while my opponent was out kicking retarded children in the crotch.” or something stupid like that. I’d much rather see him propose something new and less damaging to the taxpayers, but it doesn’t look like that’s in the cards right now.
Personally, I think both McCain and Obama should be part of the dialogue until some progress is made. One of them is going to inherit the situation. The debate can wait.
First: [quote]jsbrook wrote:
Personally, I think both McCain and Obama should be part of the dialogue until some progress is made. One of them is going to inherit the situation. [/quote]
Then
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
First: jsbrook wrote:
Personally, I think both McCain and Obama should be part of the dialogue until some progress is made. One of them is going to inherit the situation.
Then
The debate can wait.
Why shouldn’t the debate be part of the dialogue[/quote]
As long as it doesn’t interrupt the dialogue. Or result in it going on without them. I think it’s better that they be participiating and trying to make progress towards an agreement. Reschedule the debate once solid progress has been made.
I’m still not understanding why debating the merits and perils of this in front of the American public shouldn’t be a part of “the dialogue.” By definition a debate is “dialogue.” And there is no possible way for it “to go on without them.” They’re running for president.
Are you trying to say that the dialogue should only go on behind closed doors?