First Gay President?

OK, I’ll give it a shot, although it’s probably a waste of time:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Look, to live, you HAVE to have your self-interest as your primary motivation. [/quote]

I could argue that, from a biological perspective [which you happily deny] you are hardwired to do this automatically, so why bother. However, from a metaphysical standpoint [which you happily support, you know, gawd and the afterlife] there is much to gain from total altruism.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
To deliberately act against your own good would eventually result in your death…unless you could get someone else to suffer the consequences in your place.[/quote]

Acting towards other people’s good does not constitute going actively against your good at all, especially not since you wnat to keep on living to help others, right? I could even argue that a whole utopic society of altruists [the one that your Jesus wanted to establish, remember?] would be a nice place, since everyone would make sure nobody would suffer.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The reason the world is a slaughterhouse is because the morality we practice (unselfishness) is not rational or possible, unless victims can be found to suffer the consequences of unselfishness. [/quote]

Who do you mean with “we practise”? For the largest part, the world is a slaughterhouse because man can get away with the opposite of even basic morality [categorical imperative, which nearly every culture knows] and benefit tremendously from it. This is a no brainer. Under these circumstances, many religions [eg Jesus] tried to explore the possibilities of doing it the other way around. Deus caritas est, right?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Altruism can only exist because governments force people to be altruistic. They have to use force to gain acquiescence.[/quote]

Total and utter BS.You should know at your age. Governments normally do profit enormously from spending a few bucks abroad. It’s political influence that is assured. Even objectively, we hardly help anyone. One well here, one school there, next comes a nice civil war and we start again. You probably know that for instance, the american AIDS help for Africa is intertwined with catholic preachers, who advise to practise chastity -as opposed to use condoms. With known effect.
Even if we effectively helped these “poor” people, it wouldn’t be altruism, because this requires a a conscious effort. You talk about forced taxation.Altruism can only exist without someone commanding you.
And if you truly believe the “state” , namely it’s key leaders are altruists, or better altruistic dictators (who in essence can’t be altruists anymore, rather idiots with pseudo- samaritan issues), who sacrifice their people’s efforts to help others, you’re dillusional. This is hard, geopolitical strategy.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Because altruism causes violence, its not really a morality at all.[/quote]

You have to show me yet how true altruism causes violence.

Also, a morality can of course cause violence. If you happen to defend an old Lady against muggers, you cause (in my eyes and yours (???) righteous) violence.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
So, since humans have no morality, they become animals (which is really the goal of those who preach unselfishness). [/quote]

It’s the other way around from a biological perspective. Since we are higher animals, we have morals.
And show me one culture at any time who goes against the categorical imperative. Morality is in us. Although we can bend it around and find loopholes for complex or even simple dilemma which every society, it’s leaders and especially it’s prophets did for a living.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
They become fit for rule.
[/quote]
Altruism> violence> degeneration> easy to rule?
???

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
forlife wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Why is it every place anything “gay” pops up you have to stick your nose in it with propaganda? The above list is inaccurate and you probably know it.

How is it inaccurate? It is my understanding that the people in the list that I posted were gay or at least bisexual.

Anyone can post a list of names of people who have been dead for hundreds of years and attribute just about any sort of behavior to them. They can’t deny it can they?

In addition to that it always seems that certain gay people try to justify their own actions with such a list.

You have no PROOF that all of the historical figures were gay…so shut the fuck up…or start posting your proof.

Your choice.

[/quote]

Oscar Wilde, definitely gay, went to jail because of it.

Alexander and Hephaistion were very,every likely having sex with each other but the whole idea of being gay is not applicable.

Da Vinci always had beautiful male apprentices, never an intimate relationship with a woman we know of. Rumours regarding his sexuality are dating back to the 16th century .

Cole Porter. Undeniably gay.

Plus, Socrates, Aristotle and Plato were having sex with men and Aristotle was Alexanders teacher, teaching him the virtues of sweaty man on man love.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Anyone can post a list of names of people who have been dead for hundreds of years and attribute just about any sort of behavior to them. They can’t deny it can they?

In addition to that it always seems that certain gay people try to justify their own actions with such a list.

You have no PROOF that all of the historical figures were gay…so shut the fuck up…or start posting your proof.

Your choice.[/quote]

And anytime someone talks about gay people you barge in talking about agendas and other hillbilly shit. What did gay people do to you?

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Yes, some were gay…
[/quote]

Since you acknowledge this, I don’t need to waste my time convincing you otherwise.

Given that at least some of the people I listed were gay, and given the enormous contributions those people made to society, my point stands.

Clearly, these aren’t people with “genetic inferiorities” that nature is trying to keep out of the gene pool.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Anyone can post a list of names of people who have been dead for hundreds of years and attribute just about any sort of behavior to them. They can’t deny it can they?

In addition to that it always seems that certain gay people try to justify their own actions with such a list.

You have no PROOF that all of the historical figures were gay…so shut the fuck up…or start posting your proof.

Your choice.

And anytime someone talks about gay people you barge in talking about agendas and other hillbilly shit. What did gay people do to you?

Yea that’s always the comeback. If you say anything about gay people…even questioning historical figures… you must be a hillbilly or suffer under some sort of “homophobic disorder”.

Wow…what a sick age we live in.

Anyway…

At least I know what’s wrong with you and horion. You’re a couple of liberal assholes…Pretty simple.

[/quote]

I would like some examples of my liberal tendencies please.

Not that I expect a pinko commie like you to spout anything but propaganda.

You masturbate to “Das Kapital” and everybody knows it.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Yes, some were gay…

Since you acknowledge this, I don’t need to waste my time convincing you otherwise.

Given that at least some of the people I listed were gay, and given the enormous contributions those people made to society, my point stands.

Clearly, these aren’t people with “genetic inferiorities” that nature is trying to keep out of the gene pool.
[/quote]

Says who?

Hawkins has a genetic disease and yet has made enormous contributions to mankind.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
OK, I’ll give it a shot, although it’s probably a waste of time:
Headhunter wrote:
Look, to live, you HAVE to have your self-interest as your primary motivation.

Schwarzie wrote:
“I could argue that, from a biological perspective [which you happily deny] you are hardwired to do this automatically, so why bother. However, from a metaphysical standpoint [which you happily support, you know, gawd and the afterlife] there is much to gain from total altruism.”[/quote]

What is to gain? You stop here. What if I don’t want to help others or to be helped? Will these things be forced, maybe?

That’s the point: What if I don’t WANT to help anyone? What if I care not in the least? Will I be forced?

Probe the existence of a noumenal world and I’ll accept the Categorical Imperative.

Look at any tax code. Where does gov’t get the resources to help the poor?

You’re implicitly assuming morality actually = altruism. What is it in your personality that caused you to do that? Could it have been……your ego? Your SELF?

I would say that you are confusing benevolence with altruism. They are not the same.

[quote]orion wrote:
Hawkins has a genetic disease and yet has made enormous contributions to mankind.
[/quote]

True!

[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
Hawkins has a genetic disease and yet has made enormous contributions to mankind.

I didn’t say diseases make it impossible to make enormous contributions to mankind.

I said the idea that gays are nature’s way of eliminating genetically inferior people doesn’t hold up, in light of the contributions made by gays over the millenia.[/quote]

That is a very anthropocentric point of view though.

Why would nature care about what you think are valuable contributions?

Murder, rape and genocide for example are perfectly natural even though you might think people engaging in such activities are somehow inferior.

You were too fast, lol.

I agree. Nature doesn’t care about contributions. It only cares about survivability.

Which is why homosexuality is something of a paradox. Given the inability/unwillingness to procreate, how does nature perpetuate a same sex orientation?

There is evidence that mothers of gay men tend to be more fertile, for example. Sounds like nature may not be so averse to the gays after all.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
orion wrote:

You masturbate to “Das Kapital”

Stop fanatasizing about me…and get some help. If you do get help that would also help the rest of us as well. You would be spending time with a therapist and perhaps less time on T Nation.

You see then everyone wins.[/quote]

But Mick, you should know that us pedagogically inclined folks like our hardest cases the most.

Every time I see you try to make something resembling an argument it warms my heart.

How could I leave you, when you need me most?

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Oh…I see…it’s okay to throw out a large number of famous historical names and make a claim that they were all gay. But, you will offer no proof.[/quote]

If there is someone I listed in particular that you doubt was gay, let me know who it is and I will provide what we know about that person. I think that’s reasonable.

What I’m not going to do is spend hours going through the history of a long list of people just to satisfy your curiosity, especially when doing is unnecessary to the point that I was making.

You continue to ignore that point, which is that gay people have contributed significantly to society.

Excuse me? How is being gay in any way a “tarnish” on someone’s reputation?

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
How about through psychological means? Especially since there is no proof that anyone is born gay.[/quote]

There is some evidence for a sociological component to sexual orientation, or at least to its expression. However, it is clear that biology/in utero influences also play a part. Otherwise, identical twins wouldn’t have a higher likelihood of both being gay vs. fraternal twins vs. siblings.

The jury is still out on the relative impact of sociological vs. genetic influences. However, the scores of studies on the subject make it clear that genetics/in utero influences play a significant role.

Regardless of sociology/genetics, in neither case is there any evidence that the person actually had a “choice” in the development of his sexual orientation.