First Cycle Experiences

Pharma
42

Thanks man. Finished the PCT running Nolva 40/30/20/10 but seeing loads of side effects from high E.

It has been 2/3 weeks since my last Nolva tabs, should I run it again? Thinking of going for blood work to make sure.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Hey man.

First off sorry for the misspelling. I spelt it wrong once and autocorrect saved it as that.

Second off thanks for your advice appreciate it. Yes I don’t know what I’m talking about 100% given this is my first cycle and I had to change midway through.

Anyways the vial is 100mg/ml so like you said the dosing was way under hence why I didn’t feel same effects as prop.

Anyways I’ll take it as a lesson learnt. I have 4ml left in the vial. Will finish it this week.

Moving forward towards pct I have conflicting advice. One being just clomid tablets for 20 days.

Once you are done with your 8 wks, you are to wait 2 full weeks before using your clomid. This way the half life of the drug has run its course and its mostly all out of you. It would be a waste to start your clomid therapy while the steroids were still kicking, that is why we want to wait a full 2 weeks here.

You are to use 1 clomid tab a day for 20 days. After this cycle is over with (after your clomid therapy) you are to wait AT LEAST 8 WEEKS, before attempting another cycle. 12 weeks would actually be better.

Second advice from the useless trainer was

PCT
Begins wk 9 to wk 13

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

Not sure what the hcg is for tbh. Think he just threw it in there.

[/quote]

dang, you got hosed by that trainer.

well, the one good thing here, is that you didn’t run high doses for any amount of time, so you should have less suppression.

i’d suggest simply running Nolva for 20 mg for 6 weeks or so.

as far as your other question about estrogen/gyno, you could add in Aromasin (and you can do that now, without waiting for PCT) and run that into PCT, as needed…

here’s some more info on that: Thoughts on Planning PCT - Pharma - Forums - T Nation
[/quote]

43

Shot thanks for the input man.

Yeah I learnt to inject into my glutes, but the PIP was awful especially for first time usage puts you off.

Cyp was alot easier to inject and the side effects not as bad, allowed me to squat properly. But its effects are marginal compared to prop.

Still figuring out best way forward. Finished the first cycle, got quite a few side effects so may sort those out first and my diet and training before looking to my next cycle.

[quote]Andy.Now wrote:
This sort of reminds me of my first cycle.

I didn’t understand gear too well, so I bought 1 vial of Prop with my DBol.
At the time I thought that I would run the DBol for X weeks and then start the Prop to ‘maintain a heightened anabolic state’ for Z more weeks.
Before that order arrived, I learned what to do and ordered some Enanthate.
The cycle ended up going well, but I didn’t have the right knowledge when I decided to place my first order.

I did my first Prop injection in my quad. I was very nervous about sticking the needle all the way into my leg, and I was shaky as hell.
If I remember, my first jab painfully hit a nerve and I had to pull out and do it again.
The PIP was probably the worst leg pain I have ever had.
I pinned the rest of my Prop in my delts, and don’t plan to use Prop again because I actually want to be able to walk.
I was limping like a motherfucker, so bad that my gait was aggrivating my back injury.

Anyway I hope you figured out what to do.[/quote]

44

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
No worries man I appreciate the advice I really do thats why I am here to see the best way forward.

Been following the Madcow 5x5 training programme for a while now, and train 3-4 x a week on it with emphasis on heavy lifts.

Diet wise I saw a personal trainer and he gave me a diet plan that would try and amount my intake to 2500 calories a day. He breaks down the intake per meal and what I should be eating but thinking something like IIFYM would be better?
I have seen a drop in BF since starting the diet and eat a lot cleaner now, less take out and snacking, more fruit, yoghurt, protein and veg.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
I think we need to talk training and nutrition first op, no offense just trying to help[/quote]
[/quote]

Im not a fan of IIFYM. Just stick with your diet if seeing results you like. what are your goals?

45

My goals are definitely to get bigger and more defined - lose some of the chub around my stomach.

Bit conflicted as looking to go more for the aesthetics fitness body physiques (Randy Ortan and Zyzz types) than the beastly bodybuilders but don’t want to be small or lose strength - my most enjoyable part about gyming is my lifts - squats, dlifts and bench.

Not naturally a lean guy or a chubby guy was quite scrawny before finding lifting.

Does this help?

46

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
No worries man I appreciate the advice I really do thats why I am here to see the best way forward.

Been following the Madcow 5x5 training programme for a while now, and train 3-4 x a week on it with emphasis on heavy lifts.

Diet wise I saw a personal trainer and he gave me a diet plan that would try and amount my intake to 2500 calories a day. He breaks down the intake per meal and what I should be eating but thinking something like IIFYM would be better?
I have seen a drop in BF since starting the diet and eat a lot cleaner now, less take out and snacking, more fruit, yoghurt, protein and veg.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
I think we need to talk training and nutrition first op, no offense just trying to help[/quote]
[/quote]

Im not a fan of IIFYM. Just stick with your diet if seeing results you like. what are your goals?
[/quote]

My goals are definitely to get bigger and more defined - lose some of the chub around my stomach.

Bit conflicted as looking to go more for the aesthetics fitness body physiques (Randy Ortan and Zyzz types) than the beastly bodybuilders but don’t want to be small or lose strength - my most enjoyable part about gyming is my lifts - squats, dlifts and bench.

Not naturally a lean guy or a chubby guy was quite scrawny before finding lifting.

Does this help?

47

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
No worries man I appreciate the advice I really do thats why I am here to see the best way forward.

Been following the Madcow 5x5 training programme for a while now, and train 3-4 x a week on it with emphasis on heavy lifts.

Diet wise I saw a personal trainer and he gave me a diet plan that would try and amount my intake to 2500 calories a day. He breaks down the intake per meal and what I should be eating but thinking something like IIFYM would be better?
I have seen a drop in BF since starting the diet and eat a lot cleaner now, less take out and snacking, more fruit, yoghurt, protein and veg.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
I think we need to talk training and nutrition first op, no offense just trying to help[/quote]
[/quote]

Im not a fan of IIFYM. Just stick with your diet if seeing results you like. what are your goals?
[/quote]

My goals are definitely to get bigger and more defined - lose some of the chub around my stomach.

Bit conflicted as looking to go more for the aesthetics fitness body physiques (Randy Ortan and Zyzz types) than the beastly bodybuilders but don’t want to be small or lose strength - my most enjoyable part about gyming is my lifts - squats, dlifts and bench.

Not naturally a lean guy or a chubby guy was quite scrawny before finding lifting.

Does this help?
[/quote]

Yes that helps. If it were me id be focusing on putting on mass right now. Youre not going to do that eating 2500 calories though. I would also get on a bodybuilding type split. Some sort of push pull legs split and hitting everything twice a week. If you want, post up your exact diet.

48

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Thanks man. Finished the PCT running Nolva 40/30/20/10 but seeing loads of side effects from high E.

It has been 2/3 weeks since my last Nolva tabs, should I run it again? Thinking of going for blood work to make sure.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Hey man.

First off sorry for the misspelling. I spelt it wrong once and autocorrect saved it as that.

Second off thanks for your advice appreciate it. Yes I don’t know what I’m talking about 100% given this is my first cycle and I had to change midway through.

Anyways the vial is 100mg/ml so like you said the dosing was way under hence why I didn’t feel same effects as prop.

Anyways I’ll take it as a lesson learnt. I have 4ml left in the vial. Will finish it this week.

Moving forward towards pct I have conflicting advice. One being just clomid tablets for 20 days.

Once you are done with your 8 wks, you are to wait 2 full weeks before using your clomid. This way the half life of the drug has run its course and its mostly all out of you. It would be a waste to start your clomid therapy while the steroids were still kicking, that is why we want to wait a full 2 weeks here.

You are to use 1 clomid tab a day for 20 days. After this cycle is over with (after your clomid therapy) you are to wait AT LEAST 8 WEEKS, before attempting another cycle. 12 weeks would actually be better.

Second advice from the useless trainer was

PCT
Begins wk 9 to wk 13

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

Not sure what the hcg is for tbh. Think he just threw it in there.

[/quote]

dang, you got hosed by that trainer.

well, the one good thing here, is that you didn’t run high doses for any amount of time, so you should have less suppression.

i’d suggest simply running Nolva for 20 mg for 6 weeks or so.

as far as your other question about estrogen/gyno, you could add in Aromasin (and you can do that now, without waiting for PCT) and run that into PCT, as needed…

here’s some more info on that: Thoughts on Planning PCT - Pharma - Forums - T Nation
[/quote]
[/quote]

well, running nolva agin won’t help high estrogen. SERMs block the estrogen receptor, but they don’t actually lower estrogen…

you might as well get bloodwork to see where you’re at now, and if necessary, add in an AI to get that under control.

49

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Thanks man. Finished the PCT running Nolva 40/30/20/10 but seeing loads of side effects from high E.

It has been 2/3 weeks since my last Nolva tabs, should I run it again? Thinking of going for blood work to make sure.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Hey man.

First off sorry for the misspelling. I spelt it wrong once and autocorrect saved it as that.

Second off thanks for your advice appreciate it. Yes I don’t know what I’m talking about 100% given this is my first cycle and I had to change midway through.

Anyways the vial is 100mg/ml so like you said the dosing was way under hence why I didn’t feel same effects as prop.

Anyways I’ll take it as a lesson learnt. I have 4ml left in the vial. Will finish it this week.

Moving forward towards pct I have conflicting advice. One being just clomid tablets for 20 days.

Once you are done with your 8 wks, you are to wait 2 full weeks before using your clomid. This way the half life of the drug has run its course and its mostly all out of you. It would be a waste to start your clomid therapy while the steroids were still kicking, that is why we want to wait a full 2 weeks here.

You are to use 1 clomid tab a day for 20 days. After this cycle is over with (after your clomid therapy) you are to wait AT LEAST 8 WEEKS, before attempting another cycle. 12 weeks would actually be better.

Second advice from the useless trainer was

PCT
Begins wk 9 to wk 13

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

Not sure what the hcg is for tbh. Think he just threw it in there.

[/quote]

dang, you got hosed by that trainer.

well, the one good thing here, is that you didn’t run high doses for any amount of time, so you should have less suppression.

i’d suggest simply running Nolva for 20 mg for 6 weeks or so.

as far as your other question about estrogen/gyno, you could add in Aromasin (and you can do that now, without waiting for PCT) and run that into PCT, as needed…

here’s some more info on that: Thoughts on Planning PCT - Pharma - Forums - T Nation
[/quote]
[/quote]

well, running nolva agin won’t help high estrogen. SERMs block the estrogen receptor, but they don’t actually lower estrogen…

you might as well get bloodwork to see where you’re at now, and if necessary, add in an AI to get that under control.[/quote]

Yeah I’ll go this week and get an AI if needed.

What levels should I ask to check exactly as I know the testing centres like to run everything which costs.

TT, FS, LSH, E2, and TSH?

That’s what I’ve found so far? Anything else absolutely critical?

50

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
No worries man I appreciate the advice I really do thats why I am here to see the best way forward.

Been following the Madcow 5x5 training programme for a while now, and train 3-4 x a week on it with emphasis on heavy lifts.

Diet wise I saw a personal trainer and he gave me a diet plan that would try and amount my intake to 2500 calories a day. He breaks down the intake per meal and what I should be eating but thinking something like IIFYM would be better?
I have seen a drop in BF since starting the diet and eat a lot cleaner now, less take out and snacking, more fruit, yoghurt, protein and veg.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
I think we need to talk training and nutrition first op, no offense just trying to help[/quote]
[/quote]

Im not a fan of IIFYM. Just stick with your diet if seeing results you like. what are your goals?
[/quote]

My goals are definitely to get bigger and more defined - lose some of the chub around my stomach.

Bit conflicted as looking to go more for the aesthetics fitness body physiques (Randy Ortan and Zyzz types) than the beastly bodybuilders but don’t want to be small or lose strength - my most enjoyable part about gyming is my lifts - squats, dlifts and bench.

Not naturally a lean guy or a chubby guy was quite scrawny before finding lifting.

Does this help?
[/quote]

Yes that helps. If it were me id be focusing on putting on mass right now. Youre not going to do that eating 2500 calories though. I would also get on a bodybuilding type split. Some sort of push pull legs split and hitting everything twice a week. If you want, post up your exact diet.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice.
Yeah I’ll definitely look for a bulking diet. Should I look to run the AAS cycle in two to four weeks?

Stats -
88kgs
14-15 bf %
1.83m
23 and 9 months

Diet -
Fat free yoghurt and cup of fruit breakfast

Chicken wrap lunch
726 C
12g Fat
64g carbw
48g protein

Dinner
Chicken veg and sweet potatoes
Calories 370
Protein 45g
Fat 7.5g
Carbs 30g

â??----------

Training stats
Madcow 5x5 hybrid with isolation added in

Squat - 110 kgs 5 reps
120 kg 1RP

BENCH - 105 kgs 5 reps
115 kg 1RP off cycle
122.5kg on cycle

Deadlift
160kg 5 reps
170 1RP Off cycle
180 1RP on cycle

Shoulder press
55 kgs 5 reps
70 kgs 1RP.

Rows
60kgs 5 reps
80 kgs 1RP

Hope that helps.

51

I would wait on the aas. Get in a routine first. Training and diet wise.

Your diet is absolutely horrible. Did you post it all? Thats what the personal trainer gave you? If so please go slap him.

You need to be eating every 2.5-3hrs minimum. 5-6 meals a day. Try keeping carbs around pre and post training. Try starting around 3000-3500 calories a day. But the main goal is starting somewhere, being consistent, and adjusting depending on progress or lack of.

Like i said with training, id get on a push pull legs routine or something like that.

52

DONT RUN ANOTHER CYCLE YET.

Jesus Christ man. How are you this dense? Every sign is pointing to the fact that you weren’t ready for your first cycle to begin with. You should be off for AT LEAST the next year. Probably longer.

Threads like these make me so, so glad I waited until I was 30 to fuck around with this stuff.

53

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
DONT RUN ANOTHER CYCLE YET.

Jesus Christ man. How are you this dense? Every sign is pointing to the fact that you weren’t ready for your first cycle to begin with. You should be off for AT LEAST the next year. Probably longer.

Threads like these make me so, so glad I waited until I was 30 to fuck around with this stuff.[/quote]

My favorite part is that within a 12-hour window he went from “Yeah man I’ll get my diet and training sorted out before this next cycle” to “should I start my next cycle in 2-4 weeks?” despite getting at least four different replies saying that he’s nowhere near ready to be using steroids.

54

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
I would wait on the aas. Get in a routine first. Training and diet wise.

Your diet is absolutely horrible. Did you post it all? Thats what the personal trainer gave you? If so please go slap him.

You need to be eating every 2.5-3hrs minimum. 5-6 meals a day. Try keeping carbs around pre and post training. Try starting around 3000-3500 calories a day. But the main goal is starting somewhere, being consistent, and adjusting depending on progress or lack of.

Like i said with training, id get on a push pull legs routine or something like that.

[/quote]

Shot thanks for the advice man.

There is mid morning snacks and mid afternoon and evening snacks which are more portien based - eg
SNACK #1 (300-400cal)
Choose Snack #2 between Lunch and Dinner

  1. 1 Shot Whey Protein powder mixed Half
    Water/Half Milk +1 Cup of Oats +1 Tbsp.
    Flaxseed Oil
  2. 1 �½ - 2 Handful of Assorted Nuts + Dried Fruit /
    Trail Mix
  3. 2 Medium Apple + 2 Tbsp. Low Fat Cream Cheese
  4. 4 Slice Whole-wheat brown bread + 2 Tbsp.
    Peanut Butter
  5. 1 cup Cottage Cheese + 2 Palm full fresh
    Pineapple + 2 Palm full Berries
  6. 2 Cup Non-fat Vanilla Greek Yoghurt + 1cup Mix
    Berries/ Blueberries

I didn’t include it though.

I think cause when I went to go see him was after my final set of exams and projects and my diet was awful so was sitting at 18% bf. On this diet I dropped to 13.8% on cycle - measured 5 weeks ago. But these last three weeks been a bit sick and not following the diet and definitely around 15 now.

But yeah I will look for another diet plan and look to aim for 3-3500 calories a day, with carbs around training time.

Workout plan wise do you have any recommendations as found 2 - one from tnation and Nick wrights one?

es per week (can go up to 6 if you want)

Outline: 2-4 exercises per muscle group, 6-8 exercises per workout
Day 1: Push (Chest, Shoulders, Triceps)
Day 2: Pull (Back, Biceps, Abs)
Day 3: Legs (Glutes, Quads, Hams, Calves, Lower Back)

Note: The days and order are interchangeable.

Strengths: Allows for more focus on specific muscles (particularly the pulling and leg muscles) compared to the 2 day-a-week routine; can promote recovery compared to higher frequency routines.

Limitations: Only training each area once a week may not be optimal stimulus; likely to produce soreness if training is intense.

workout 2:
Push is always the same. Pull is always the same. Legs are always the same.

Push Day

Db bench press 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps
Db incline press 2 sets of 10 reps
Seated military press- 2 sets of 10 reps
Upright row- 2 sets of 10 reps(ya i know its a pull exercise, but its hits the side delts)
Overhead extension- 2-3 sets of 10 reps
weighted ab crunches- 1-2 sets of 10
Hanging leg raises- 1-2 sets of 10

Pull

Deadlifts- working up to a 440lb set of 5 or a max set of 510lbs. Typically 3-4 sets altogether
Barbell row- 3 sets of 10
One Arm dumbell row- 2 sets of 10
Barbell shrugs- 2 sets of 10
db bicep curl- 3 sets of 10
hammer curls- 2 sets of 10

Leg Day
Back squats- Warm up. Then 320lbs for 3 sets of 5.
Front squats- 2 sets of 8-10
Stiff legged deadlifts- 3 sets of 10
Standing calf raises- 2 sets of 20
Seated calf raises under barbell- 2 sets of 20

Workout 3: Nick Wright

Strength and hyper trophy split. Push Pull legs.

55

Sorry I was a bit eager to get back on cycle mainly for the mental mood effects - felt awesome and also the effect on my shoulder.

On cycle I could train shoulders the day after chest no problem, didn’t feel my rotators flair up once in 8-10 weeks. Now I can feel the stiffness coming back and have to revert to using the theraband’s again.

That was one of my main reasons for jumping on cycle, my physio suggested it would help my shoulder and it did… until now.

BUT after seeing all your messages and advice I will hold off on it at least until June if not the whole year…

56

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
That was one of my main reasons for jumping on cycle, my physio suggested it would help my shoulder and it did… until now. [/quote]

Your physio told you to take steroids? Did he mean corticosteroids for inflammation?

Either that or you have a talent for picking out the worst trainers/physios in the world lol.

57

Lol no off the record off course… Recommended Prop or Cyp to help rebuild the muscle. Lol I think I can actually have a curse…

58

Also found this:

Push is always the same. Pull is always the same. Legs are always the same.

Push Day

Db bench press 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps
Db incline press 2 sets of 10 reps
Seated military press- 2 sets of 10 reps
Upright row- 2 sets of 10 reps(ya i know its a pull exercise, but its hits the side delts)
Overhead extension- 2-3 sets of 10 reps
weighted ab crunches- 1-2 sets of 10
Hanging leg raises- 1-2 sets of 10

Pull

Deadlifts- working up to a 440lb set of 5 or a max set of 510lbs. Typically 3-4 sets altogether
Barbell row- 3 sets of 10
One Arm dumbell row- 2 sets of 10
Barbell shrugs- 2 sets of 10
db bicep curl- 3 sets of 10
hammer curls- 2 sets of 10

Leg Day
Back squats- Warm up. Then 320lbs for 3 sets of 5.
Front squats- 2 sets of 8-10
Stiff legged deadlifts- 3 sets of 10
Standing calf raises- 2 sets of 20
Seated calf raises under barbell- 2 sets of 20

59

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Sorry I was a bit eager to get back on cycle mainly for the mental mood effects - felt awesome and also the effect on my shoulder.

On cycle I could train shoulders the day after chest no problem, didn’t feel my rotators flair up once in 8-10 weeks. Now I can feel the stiffness coming back and have to revert to using the theraband’s again.

That was one of my main reasons for jumping on cycle, my physio suggested it would help my shoulder and it did… until now.

BUT after seeing all your messages and advice I will hold off on it at least until June if not the whole year… [/quote]

You sound like a damn drug addict. Don’t go down that rabbit hole. Don’t rely on steroids to feel good. That’s a bonus, not a reason to use.

And you’re clearly not listening to any of the good advice in here if you’re still considering jumping back on in June.

MARCH 24, 2016. That’s the day you’re allowed to think about doing another cycle. NOT BEFORE THEN.

Cool? Cool.

And as far as training templates, either one you posted is fine. You should be able to get results out of either, or any of the dozens of other programs on this site. Almost any training template can/will work if you apply intensity and consistency, along with a quality diet.

60

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Sorry I was a bit eager to get back on cycle mainly for the mental mood effects - felt awesome and also the effect on my shoulder.

On cycle I could train shoulders the day after chest no problem, didn’t feel my rotators flair up once in 8-10 weeks. Now I can feel the stiffness coming back and have to revert to using the theraband’s again.

That was one of my main reasons for jumping on cycle, my physio suggested it would help my shoulder and it did… until now.

BUT after seeing all your messages and advice I will hold off on it at least until June if not the whole year… [/quote]

You sound like a damn drug addict. Don’t go down that rabbit hole. Don’t rely on steroids to feel good. That’s a bonus, not a reason to use.

And you’re clearly not listening to any of the good advice in here if you’re still considering jumping back on in June.

MARCH 24, 2016. That’s the day you’re allowed to think about doing another cycle. NOT BEFORE THEN.

Cool? Cool.

And as far as training templates, either one you posted is fine. You should be able to get results out of either, or any of the dozens of other programs on this site. Almost any training template can/will work if you apply intensity and consistency, along with a quality diet.[/quote]

Shot thanks for the advice man appreciate it. Will start my new programme from tomorrow.

In the mean time need to sort out the sides effects from my previous cycle. Going for blood work tomorrow. What levels must I select to check that are vital?

Hormones (steroids, LH/FSH);
Lipids (Standard Full Set);
Liver Panel (especial with hepatotoxic steroids);
CBC & CMP; Electrolytes, Mineral and Glucose;

Are all the above critical and necessary? Anything I missed?

61

Test. Free test. Estradiol. Thyroid panel is always good