The problem is someone will wake up one day and not feel as good as yesterday and take an AI instead of waiting. The first 5-6 weeks of taking anything your body is getting used to it so hormonal fluctuations should be expected. Then you have people that read 8 year old threads where anytime you are feeling less than He-man it’s because high estrogen. They go looking for any reason to take an AI. I’ve been there myself. It took an act of God to change my thinking (2 estrogen crashes and a year of feeling less than ideal) especially being someone who has dealt with gyno before ever touching testosterone.
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Totally agree with changing the thinking of the community. I just think that some swing too far in the other side of the pendulum. I for one, was getting a flare up at week 4 of just test. Had I been on a low dose tamoxifen or ai maybe this could have been prevented. So to say no one should touch any anti e drugs until a given week goes against the whole “evaluate symptoms” thinking. Had you done more e2 labs you may have caught the culprit sooner. The lab I use is $40 to know my e2. For me it’s worth it in this stage of my aas usage. As far as crashing e2, I had low libido for about 10 days, that and a bit of emotional distress were my only symptoms. Since I took the labs, and got the numbers, I was able to adjust protocol. Same goes with too high for me.
For those of you who have little to no chance of getting gyno, or have no experience with gyno, it’s hard for you to understand.
I have gyno, pubertal gyno. Dexter, had surgery for his gyno. So we do understand it.
The MAJORITY of people that think they’re getting gyno in the first 5-6 weeks of Test only, are not getting gyno, but rather some nipple sensitivity. This typically goes away once the body has found its new norm. This is why guys recommend waiting. I haven’t used nolvadex for gyno myself, but it sounds to be rather useful to combat any gyno that flares up.
If you have gyno that recently popped up, you can still have a chance at getting rid of it. Arimidex is not the solution necessarily.
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Appreciate your response. I too have a long history with gyno. This is gyno, not just nip tingling. I’m going to do a post in the future just about my story, not about what I think others should do. I’ve taken e2 labs since week 1. I can see the rate in which it grew until I had a flare up. I’ve been treating it for a week and flat up is gone but small mass remains. Debating on how to proceed. I have .125 caps of adex, 1mg of adex that I can cut. I also have research grade tamoxifen. I’m 5 weeks in now. However I proceed with e2 control, I’ll be able to track it as I’m continuing to get e2 labs done weekly until I get my e2 management figured out. I’ll post all the results and my protocols in the future.
Nolvadex or Ralox for hopefully making the mass disappear. The sooner you do, the better your chance at wiping it out.
Out of curiosity, have you had your prolactin levels checked as well during cycle?
You mention a long history of gyno. Did it go away and now came back on cycle? Or has the mass always been there ?
Those T/E levels were taken 24 hrs after my daily 28.6mg shot so they are peak (and trough). If I did once a week shots (like you) my levels would show whatever lower number makes you feel good about yours. The prolactin is not high enough to mean anything.
Low SHBG can be a sign of unhealthy body (diabetes, hypothyroidism, etc). May want to look into that.
Those labs are from 4/28/19. Pic is from a few days ago (so 10 months later).
Now your turn. Let’s see your tits
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Some are more sensitive to gynocomastia than others. Upregulation/saturation of estrogen receptors/progesterone receptors tends to induce gyno in those predisposed, thus if you get gyno from test alone stay away from 19-nors… despite a lack of inherent aromatisation, estrogen itself tends to regulate PR receptor sensitivity, thus combining test + deca/tren could spell disaster.
The 20-30 E range isn’t a scientific fact, it’s bioscience. You may be an outlier but generally with regards to mere testosterone replacement higher levels of estradiol on treatment are strongly correlated with improved scores regarding sexual function/satisfaction. Whether this relates to E2 directly or the fact that higher E2 is typically directly correlated with higher TT/FT on treatment remains unknown. However it is known estradiol elicts a net positive effect regarding neurotransmission, nitric oxide output and more… thus a positive correlation between (within reason) estradiol and erectile function may be apparent. I don’t believe E suppression is a good idea barring the most extreme circumstances wherein the benefit outweighs the risk. Water retention “estrogen sides” can stem from enhanced RAAS activation mediated by AAS, generalised systemic toxicity inducing fatigue etc, it’s not all estrogen
I had gyno in my teens/preteen years, it didn’t bother me in the slightest besides the fact that it was painful. I think getting constantly picked on bothered me more, so perhaps it would’ve bothered me had that other variable not been present… was also more self conscious of my winged scapula (corrected with PT) than I was of my gyno
I been running Nolvadex Wed-Monday last week into this week. Then kinda thinking about switching to adex. Very torn. Advantages and disadvantages to both.
Have not tested prolactin yet. Will do so at 8 week mark. Possibly 10th week.
I’ve had gyno growths 4 times in my life including this time. I had it surgically removed 3 years ago. This growth is much smaller and now treating it with Tamoxifen I hope it goes away, but I doubt it. My reading indicates it will reduce swelling in a flare up but not reduce mass size of growth.
I’d be curious to know the advantages of Arimidex. It’s harsh on lipids and risk of crashing estrogen isn’t much fun. Not to mention higher estrogen can be beneficial while on cycle. It’s also shown to be less effective at resolving gyno than tamoxifen and Raloxifene. Countless studies have shown the success of both of these at treating gyno, especially the “lump” type of gyno. Taking it for a week typically isn’t enough. Most studies have been with 10-20mg Tamoxifen for 3-6 months, or 60mg Ralox for 3 months. Both have shown improvement and in many patients, complete elimination of gynocomastia for patients who have only had the “lump” for 12 months or less
You ask about prolactin and my experience with gyno. I mention one thing about adex and that’s all you can respond with. It’s like you’re obsessed. Maybe the moderator should make a new anti adex forum. AI is just one part of the larger discussion about gyno. Sheesh man.
For the record, I mentioned Adex once in my last post, it was 90% about tamoxifen and Ralox, not Adex. It was actually to help you.
You mentioned your readings showing tamoxifen not resolving gyno, which I shared that many studies show complete resolution for many patients.
You mentioned you have taken Nolva for a week… I mentioned it may take 3-6 months to resolve. Again, helping you.
I simply asked what the PROS of Adex are, as you said there’s pros and cons to both.
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It is one of the tools one can implement to treat gyno. I can see why you might think you’re being attacked in the posts above but that isn’t the case, people are merely asking questions regarding you’re preference for AI (why, what’s the benefit over SERMS etc)
The implementation of anastrazole/AI in conjunction with increased androgen concentration immediately cuts HDL almost in half for most according to literature, furthermore crushing/supressing estrogen induces endothelial dysfunction, neurological alteration etc
Whilst meta analysis found women on AI for ER positive breast cancer didn’t have an increased incidence for MI (actually data conflicts here) the same wouldn’t be said for AAS users, in which estrogen would elicit a cardioprotective mechanism (vasodialation, lipids etc)
SERMs act as estrogen upon the ER despite not being estrogen, thus they don’t strain lipids and in some cases improve them, however just like bioidentical estrogen they can increase serum triglycerides (also replicated within women with cancer… AI screws lipids ever so slightly, nothing compared to AAS + AI, serms exert a favourable effect on lipids but increase trigs)
If you believe an AI is best then… fine, no one is here to tell you what you can/can’t do, it’s just recommendation
Interesting you mention the SERM benefit on lipids. My LDL was 20 points lower on Tamoxifen. Went back up to 175 afterwards.
Did trigs increase on it though?
Oddly enough, no… 69 while on tamoxifen and 74 when off.
It’s not a side effect that’ll happen to everyone, drug related reactions differ from person to person
So… are you currently on a statin? We’re you able to get a plaque score?
I actually head in this afternoon! I will shoot you an email afterwards and let you know what the “lipidologist” says and is willing to do.
Nice
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Just laughed out loud at your post.
Guys, can we get back to the issue at hand? xD I understand that AI aid yhe issue but I’d still like to know if anyone else has experienced any tendon pain (tendonitis) while taking AI, especially arimidex. I’d appreciate it. I’m already less stressed thanks to @dextermorgan and his experience but the more the merrier. Had anyone else had this experience?