@hrdlvn
What’s the cut off for heart problems? Are you referring to his Total T number or E2? What system is the free E2 fucking with and what would the negative effects be? If he had SHBG of say 40 would he be ok? Just trying to understand the specifics of what your saying.
I did not realize how much ODing on TRT year round can cook our hearts until I started listening to @unreal24278 This kids knowledge of T and aas effects on the heart is a real eye opener for me.
I’ll try to break my post down. super high TT/FT is the heart cooker. It can thicken your blood HCT which can lead to high blood pressure or heart attack. Super high E2 effects your sex drive libido and ED in the worst of cases. Age does play a factor here. The older you are the the less margin you have. As for SHGB it is a sponge and sucks you T and E2 turning it in to useless crap floating around in our blood. If you lack enough SHGB to deal with your high E2 or T you end up with bad side effects.
This is why some guys can tolerate very high E2 and feel no negative sides. They have high SHGB. For the rest of us it take your AI or drop your weekly T dose. There are no other options.
@hrdlvn
Got it. What’s the actual cut off number? Like if his T is below X then he won’t experience heart problems. Above X = heart problems.
@unreal24278 what’s the chances at 1200 total T, E2 in the 60’s with an SHBG in the 20’s that unfixable heart problems will occur? Would be interesting to know.
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I am one of the few people here that will tell you I don’t know when I don’t. You have heard that saying everyone is different so I have to believe that applies here. I hope unreal joins in because I am out of my comfort zone. I have never passed on bro-science if I have not tried it on my self I typically will not off an opinion.
@hrdlvn
I’m genuinely interested in this. Doesn’t get spoken about often.
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I know. We have gained several new members with some really off the wall theories on how this TRT is suppose to work. My spidey sense is telling me theses guys are full of shit.
Individualistic, we have no data on this kind of stuff, however 1200 to me seems like v high normal. I can post a meta analysis in which top 1% of men had a TT of around 1350ng/dl, FT around 950pmol/l or something, depends on age, lifestyle prior substance abuse.
Question is, do you believe the raise in quality of life from permanently running such doses is worth it? I try to permanently stay at levels around of which you just specified. My nadir on primoteston was 790ng/dl (high free T) and my trough (not nadir) on 200mg sustanon was 540ng/dl (now on a vastly supraphysiologic dose 360mg for next two weeks followed by 4wks on 340mg/wk)
What’s wrong, why are you out of you’re comfort zone? What dose are you on, what are your labs. Look, we have no data on the long term effects mildly pharmacologic levels of T have. Best cause of action for you if you wish to proceed with cycling and using mildly supra doses would be to monitor HCT/RBC count, get a coronary artery plaque/calcium score (to identify the level of plaque and stiffness in coronary arteries, monitor kidney function, get EKG if possible).
Look, I’ve seen a picture of you @hrdlvn, you look great, fucking amazing for 67, I assume you live a healthy lifestyle (unlike myself, borderline anaemic, in pain all the time) not about my life though, I’m young and can get away with quite a bit of abuse before it’ll come back to bite me.
Many of the heart issues we see (case reports and whatnot) are from individuals running grams of gear over long periods of time, granted there’s the exception and many lie about the duration and extent of use, however you seldom see cardiac failure from a TT of 1200, typically issues would develop many decades down the line. If you were though to say run a TT of 5000ng/dl full time, you’d likely run into some issues down the line, however for whatever reason, some people don’t, I’ve heard stories of people staying on 750mg for a decade, sometimes longer. It’s an extremely complex question for me to answer, because the truth is… we JUST DON’T KNOW. If polycythemia doesn’t develop and an individual isn’t symptomatic of medical ailments
What dose crosses the line from cardioprotective to cardiotoxic is unknown. Keep in mind much of the data revolving around (observational studies) AAS and cardiotoxicity is resultant from many cumulative years of AAS use at high dosages (typically 675mg+), however I’ve seen impaired parasympathetic nervous system recovery demonstrated from 475mg/wk. One cumulative year of AAS use = 52 weeks on, remember that.
Overall the overall answer is, I don’t know
@dbossa unrelated however I was unable to find you on facebook, my email is in my profile bio, if you could send me a link to you’re profile I’ll add you on there.
I though this was a good read on the subject. I wish I know more just over the years of reading these boards I keep hearing about Left Ventricular Dysfunction with long term T abuse. That being guys keeping their TT over range(>1000) all year long.
From my humble knowledge of studies I can immediately see this is a flawed study - studying men that have already developed problems and also it is observational, but not interventional study. All interventional studies regarding testosterone administration point the opposite results.
Also where did the magic number 1000 came from?
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Google benefits of estrogen and then google estrogen and libido studies. You will find the truth.
My research shows High estrogen is not the cause. There is zero medical literature showing estrogen causes this issue when T is optimal.
Also don’t forget that jsut because you are on trt does not mean you’ll have libido everyday. It comes and goes. Unless you wanna chase your libido with pills every time it doesn’t feel like getting hard or horny.
I recently started HCG again. Just 200iu and it’s improved my libido and sensitivity. My free t is plenty high. It’s not the reason. The estrogen is really the only answer. Especially after I read how estrogen is created in the male body. The e2 Test at labs only reports on the estrogen that’s circulating. It does not tell you how much e is in your bones, brain, heart, tested and etc
Otherwise low or high circulating estrogen never improved my sensitivity or orgasm pleasure. Only HCG.
Think about it. Who knows maybe you’ll find some answers. I can tell you estrogen is most likely not your problem.
Good luck
It’s based on a sick population. The total t range was at 1500\1600.
The man who authored a study about how men are lowering in hormones every year used the same statistics to create the new lab ranges. In that study it showed the lab ranges used to be 1200 and 1500.
Pretty sad to reference that study. Seems to
Happen a ton. If we actually understood the study, like you did, we would never share such nonsense with someone on trt. It’s truly sad. Now we call 200mg abuse. 
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What I know for sure with hormones and biomarkers everything is so individual and spitting out a random number like 1000 just like that is a total bulshit similar as estrogen 22-30. I felt great when I had slightly higher free T and estrogen of 50, I dont say also estrogen should be sky high and testosterone as well. Its just too individual
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Wow you feel better with HCG in protocol? What does your doc think about it, he doesnt like this compound very much.
Dis you feel lower energy the first time you used HCG?
I know, a “massive” dose of testosterone.
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He doesn’t care . It’s just when someone starts Trt the HCG complicates the process and makes it hard to dial in someone.
Once you feel good it doesn’t matter.
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Do you have a source, like a paper or a study that shows that? I do believe you, but when I tell this to my doctor, I will be met with skeptcism, so I would like to have something authoritative to show to him.
Need to find just old lab results from 15 years ago with reference ranges
Yes I’ll send some docs over and upload to Dropbox l.
Huge like Donald… HUgE
Thanks!