And I’m sure if she were here to give us her complete thoughts, this conversation would go a little different. OP, does she have any papers published on her website about this topic? I know most of the professors where I work all have them proudly posted on their sites for anyone to take a look.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
And I’m sure if she were here to give us her complete thoughts, this conversation would go a little different. OP, does she have any papers published on her website about this topic? I know most of the professors where I work all have them proudly posted on their sites for anyone to take a look. [/quote]
A LITTLE different??
LO fucking L.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
You’re acting like stereotypes don’t exist for any particular reason.
[/quote]
It doesn’t matter why they exist. I am a young black male with above average skills and intellect. I do not fit any stereotype that I am aware of as far as how I act or think. Therefore, if someone is basing hiring and business practices on stereotypes, even if it is done in a benign fashion, the overall effect can have very racial consequences. That is what institutionalized racism is…for the billionth time.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The basic point is still correct…if Asians are seen as “stereotypes:good at math and IT engineering positions” and we see tons of Asians and Indians entering that field suddenly because of cheap labor, your assumption that is that being a minority of any sort is no hurdle at all in this society?
Really?[/quote]
The post I wrote above about her being here to give her side was written before your response to me.
That being said, what in the world makes you think the Indians and Asians hired IN AMERICA the last 10 years are cheap labor? We’re talking about 6 figure salaries. A senior network engineer can make over a 100K easily. Same goes for senior programmers, Security specialists, DBA’s and whole bunch of other postitions.
Most of the presale guys we get from Cisco and their engineers that come on site are minorities. They’re not cheap, they’re just good at their jobs. You can’t fake this and rely on a stereotype. You’ll know from the start if someone isn’t good at what they’re doing. Things simply won’t work.
You can add CPA’s to that list too since alot of them are corporate. They’re not “cheap labor” either.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The basic point is still correct…if Asians are seen as “stereotypes:good at math and IT engineering positions” and we see tons of Asians and Indians entering that field suddenly because of cheap labor, your assumption that is that being a minority of any sort is no hurdle at all in this society?
Really?[/quote]
The post I wrote above about her being here to give her side was written before your response to me.
That being said, what in the world makes you think the Indians and Asians hired IN AMERICA the last 10 years are cheap labor? We’re talking about 6 figure salaries. A senior network engineer can make over a 100K easily. Same goes for senior programmers, Security specialists, DBA’s and whole bunch of other postitions.
Most of the presale guys we get from Cisco and their engineers that come on site are minorities. They’re not cheap, they’re just good at their jobs. You can’t fake this and rely on a stereotype. You’ll know from the start if someone isn’t good at what they’re doing. Things simply won’t work.
You can add CPA’s to that list too since alot of them are corporate. They’re not “cheap labor” either.[/quote]
Wait, so I need to outline that her point is NOT simply that people pay minorities less but that stereotypes can be used to lock out or greatly reduce the numbers of other races seen in those same fields and schools? Do I also have to make the point of cultural influences and institutionalized racism holding back some minorities from some of the same opportunities?
Why would you focus on a no doubt minor point as if there is no stereotypical hiring practice going on at all in the world?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wait, so I need to outline that her point is NOT simply that people pay minorities less but that stereotypes can be used to lock out or greatly reduce the numbers of other races seen in those same fields and schools? Do I also have to make the point of cultural influences and institutionalized racism holding back some minorities from some of the same opportunities?
[/quote]
How do you know what her main point is? Short of reading her actual research and publication, you’re assuming what she’s focusing on. I’m focusing on specific statements that the OP (loosely I’m sure) quoted.
I agree that some racism exists in hiring practices. Hiring Indians based on a stereotype is one of them. What I don’t agree with, is the conclusions that were posted:
a) “The corporations want racism to exist.”
Corporations want to make as much money as possible. The don’t necessarily “want” racism to exist.
b) “I interview two people for a job, one black and one white (her area of study is racism towards African Americans). I don’t want to offer the black guy any more money than I have to. I have to offer the white guy the same $ as the black guy. This leads to everyone being underpaid and having no control over their own lives. So the corporations keep racism alive”
aka: black people applying for jobs drive the wages down.
c) “She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.”
There are cases when minorities are the ones who will make the corporation the most money. I don’t see anything wrong with hiring the guy that is going to best suit corporations needs: turning a profit.
[quote]Why would you focus on a no doubt minor point as if there is no stereotypical hiring practice going on at all in the world?
[/quote]
I provided a counterexample to c. It may be a minor point since it is a specific field, but it is a field I have alot of experience in and exposure to. I’m not going to talk out of my ass about other fields like Law for example that I have no experience with.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
How do you know what her main point is? [/quote]
Wait, stop there.
I don’t see anyone else in this thread stating that they wanted to wait for this teacher’s “main point” directly from her before judging her to be several negative things based on an opinion we are getting from someone who appears extremely biased. Yet NOW, since I offered a take on it that logically supports what has been written “supposedly showing exactly what she thinks”, now we need her exact words to form an opinion?
Excuse me while I guffaw.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wait, stop there.
I don’t see anyone else in this thread stating that they wanted to wait for this teacher’s “main point” directly from her before judging her to be several negative things based on an opinion we are getting from someone who appears extremely biased. Yet NOW, since I offered a take on it that logically supports what has been written “supposedly showing exactly what she thinks”, now we need her exact words to form an opinion?
Excuse me while I guffaw.[/quote]
Then you missed where I said
"OP, does she have any papers published on her website about this topic? I know most of the professors where I work all have them proudly posted on their sites for anyone to take a look. "
I’m not even judging her personally. I’m judging the ideas that the OP posted. However, I was myself judged and apparently am the reason racism exists because I didn’t agree with an anonymous article a page back.
[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.
Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).
So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).
[/quote]
As a student who literally just went through the whole deal of choosing a school and paying for it, I can tell you that African American students with even average high school records have no trouble getting money. Once you fill out that little bubble on you application to any school, scholarship, etc, you pretty much automatically shoot past all but the very best white students.
I know this because a good friend of mine, who is black, applied for many of the same things, or at least types of things, that I did. Quite frankly, his gpa was average and his SAT was borderline pathetic, and he had a good bit of extra curriculars, but nothing astounding.
On the other hand, my GPA, while not earth shattering, was much higher and my SAT was near perfect. Our extra curriculars were basically a wash.
My friend got grants and scholarships out the ass adding up to most of his four year tuition. I got one small scholarship.
You may be saying, “Yeah but that could be because his essays were better.” Well, the one scholarship I did recieve was through my high school and the woman in charge told me my essay was the best she had ever recieved. So, we are at least equal in that regard as well.
My point is that I disagree with the statement that minorities can’t go to college because they lack funding.
*Just to be clear… This is a close friend I’m talking about and I’m glad he got all those things and I wish him luck, but I think it’s unfair that minorities get preference over more qualified whites. It’s my opinion that the best qualified should always win no matter what race.
[quote]Raging_Teddy wrote:
[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.
Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).
So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).
[/quote]
As a student who literally just went through the whole deal of choosing a school and paying for it, I can tell you that African American students with even average high school records have no trouble getting money. Once you fill out that little bubble on you application to any school, scholarship, etc, you pretty much automatically shoot past all but the very best white students.
I know this because a good friend of mine, who is black, applied for many of the same things, or at least types of things, that I did. Quite frankly, his gpa was average and his SAT was borderline pathetic, and he had a good bit of extra curriculars, but nothing astounding.
On the other hand, my GPA, while not earth shattering, was much higher and my SAT was near perfect. Our extra curriculars were basically a wash.
My friend got grants and scholarships out the ass adding up to most of his four year tuition. I got one small scholarship.
You may be saying, “Yeah but that could be because his essays were better.” Well, the one scholarship I did recieve was through my high school and the woman in charge told me my essay was the best she had ever recieved. So, we are at least equal in that regard as well.
My point is that I disagree with the statement that minorities can’t go to college because they lack funding.
*Just to be clear… This is a close friend I’m talking about and I’m glad he got all those things and I wish him luck, but I think it’s unfair that minorities get preference over more qualified whites. It’s my opinion that the best qualified should always win no matter what race.[/quote]
I think slavery was unfair.
You think college admissions is unfair. Boo fucking hoo.
Also same fucking argument has been had a dozen times in the last year on this site. Why dont you stay on topic?
to my knowledge federal FAFSA financial aid is need based not race based. Any other money your friend supposedly got was from private grants who are free to allocate money as they see fit.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
You’re acting like stereotypes don’t exist for any particular reason.
[/quote]
It doesn’t matter why they exist. I am a young black male with above average skills and intellect. I do not fit any stereotype that I am aware of as far as how I act or think. Therefore, if someone is basing hiring and business practices on stereotypes, even if it is done in a benign fashion, the overall effect can have very racial consequences. That is what institutionalized racism is…for the billionth time.[/quote]
No, it does matter very much, and that is my point. Stereotypes are the manifestation of social norms. Stereotypes are not some made up bullshit that just appears in a culture one day. You’re trying to imply that Indians are commonly hired for IT jobs BECAUSE of the stereotype and that is entirely ignorant of how business and hiring works. People are hired based on their merits and the stereotype you are referencing exists because of the migration of thousands of IT jobs to India, mainly due to the lower cost of operating there. In the time since, IT has become a major source of income in India and the rate at which IT professionals there are paid has risen along with the concentration on developing IT and engineering professionals in the Indian education system. No one is hiring Indian kids with “oh well gee, he’s Indian, I bet he’s good at IT” in mind, they’re hiring them because that specific individual has some equity to add to the organization. Hiring practices aren’t based on stereotypes, they’re based on establishing competitive advantage. Once again, you show your total ignorance of how business really works.
Inner city black kids aren’t listening to rap music and wearing baggy clothes because the stereotype says thats what they do and white suburban teenagers aren’t wearing Polo and stealing $20 bills out of their grandma’s purses so they can score some weed or some blow because thats what the stereotype says. Stereotypes are based in reality, not the other way around. You are trying to argue that reality exists because of stereotypes, which is probably the most asinine thing you have said in this thread, so far.
You keep scratching at this idea of institutionalized racism, but the more you post, the more it becomes evident that you’re just trying to find a way to say that SOMETHING is racist because you say it is.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
You’re acting like stereotypes don’t exist for any particular reason.
[/quote]
It doesn’t matter why they exist. I am a young black male with above average skills and intellect. I do not fit any stereotype that I am aware of as far as how I act or think. Therefore, if someone is basing hiring and business practices on stereotypes, even if it is done in a benign fashion, the overall effect can have very racial consequences. That is what institutionalized racism is…for the billionth time.[/quote]
No, it does matter very much, and that is my point. Stereotypes are the manifestation of social norms. Stereotypes are not some made up bullshit that just appears in a culture one day. You’re trying to imply that Indians are commonly hired for IT jobs BECAUSE of the stereotype and that is entirely ignorant of how business and hiring works. People are hired based on their merits and the stereotype you are referencing exists because of the migration of thousands of IT jobs to India, mainly due to the lower cost of operating there. In the time since, IT has become a major source of income in India and the rate at which IT professionals there are paid has risen along with the concentration on developing IT and engineering professionals in the Indian education system. No one is hiring Indian kids with “oh well gee, he’s Indian, I bet he’s good at IT” in mind, they’re hiring them because that specific individual has some equity to add to the organization. Hiring practices aren’t based on stereotypes, they’re based on establishing competitive advantage. Once again, you show your total ignorance of how business really works.
Inner city black kids aren’t listening to rap music and wearing baggy clothes because the stereotype says thats what they do and white suburban teenagers aren’t wearing Polo and stealing $20 bills out of their grandma’s purses so they can score some weed or some blow because thats what the stereotype says. Stereotypes are based in reality, not the other way around. You are trying to argue that reality exists because of stereotypes, which is probably the most asinine thing you have said in this thread, so far.
You keep scratching at this idea of institutionalized racism, but the more you post, the more it becomes evident that you’re just trying to find a way to say that SOMETHING is racist because you say it is.[/quote]
If you think people are hired based solely on merit than you are terribly naive.
Your understanding of stereotypes is equally naive.
[quote]Eli B wrote:
I think slavery was unfair.
You think college admissions is unfair. Boo fucking hoo.
Also same fucking argument has been had a dozen times in the last year on this site. Why dont you stay on topic?
to my knowledge federal FAFSA financial aid is need based not race based. Any other money your friend supposedly got was from private grants who are free to allocate money as they see fit.[/quote]
Actually his post was quite on topic. So if someone makes an argument based on their opinion they are “ignorant” and lacking in life experience. If, however, someone posts a personal real world experience with the issue at hand the policy is to attack that as well…interesting.
Are you 100% certain minorities with similar grades etc don’t receive any different treatment? Good then. You just made a strong point that race and financial background is not a hindrance in pursuing higher education and advanced degrees.
Wonder where I’m wrong…I must either be off topic or lacking in life experience, even though that’s clearly not valued in this discussion either. I’m sure someone well let me know while tossing around an f-bomb here and there 
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
You’re acting like stereotypes don’t exist for any particular reason.
[/quote]
It doesn’t matter why they exist. I am a young black male with above average skills and intellect. I do not fit any stereotype that I am aware of as far as how I act or think. Therefore, if someone is basing hiring and business practices on stereotypes, even if it is done in a benign fashion, the overall effect can have very racial consequences. That is what institutionalized racism is…for the billionth time.[/quote]
No, it does matter very much, and that is my point. Stereotypes are the manifestation of social norms. Stereotypes are not some made up bullshit that just appears in a culture one day. You’re trying to imply that Indians are commonly hired for IT jobs BECAUSE of the stereotype and that is entirely ignorant of how business and hiring works. People are hired based on their merits and the stereotype you are referencing exists because of the migration of thousands of IT jobs to India, mainly due to the lower cost of operating there. In the time since, IT has become a major source of income in India and the rate at which IT professionals there are paid has risen along with the concentration on developing IT and engineering professionals in the Indian education system. No one is hiring Indian kids with “oh well gee, he’s Indian, I bet he’s good at IT” in mind, they’re hiring them because that specific individual has some equity to add to the organization. Hiring practices aren’t based on stereotypes, they’re based on establishing competitive advantage. Once again, you show your total ignorance of how business really works.
Inner city black kids aren’t listening to rap music and wearing baggy clothes because the stereotype says thats what they do and white suburban teenagers aren’t wearing Polo and stealing $20 bills out of their grandma’s purses so they can score some weed or some blow because thats what the stereotype says. Stereotypes are based in reality, not the other way around. You are trying to argue that reality exists because of stereotypes, which is probably the most asinine thing you have said in this thread, so far.
You keep scratching at this idea of institutionalized racism, but the more you post, the more it becomes evident that you’re just trying to find a way to say that SOMETHING is racist because you say it is.[/quote]
If you think people are hired based solely on merit than you are terribly naive.
Your understanding of stereotypes is equally naive.[/quote]
Of course I don’t think that merit is the SOLE factor, I never said that. However, businesses that consistently fail to recruit the most productive and innovative employees do not succeed in the long term. The sort of insidious racist conspiracy that X and others are trying to make us believe in here is entirely contrary to the exact things that make a business succeed and grow.
Would you mind explaining to me how my understanding of stereotypes is naive? Are you trying to assert that they are not based upon real social norms? Do you think, as X apparently does, that stereotypes make the reality rather than the reality making the stereotype?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It isn’t a hole in her theory at all because it is now an accepted stereotype that Indians/Asians are “good” at IT engineering fields. That same stereotype can keep other races and other minorities out of the same jobs.[/quote]
No it’s not a hole in her theory, but only because her theory is focused on african americans. As it pertains to minorities in general, however, it’s a perfectly valid real world example and the best argument anyone has made so far in this thread. The outsourcing started because it was cheap and easy to outsource thru cyberspace and the educational system in India is actually quite good when it comes to engineering and the sciences.
No one said “I think (for no particular reason) these Indians might be really good at IT let’s outsource to them”. In fact, the thinking was probably that they weren’t as good as an american but it’d be cheap and if they fuck the whole thing up we don’t lose much money on the deal. Then it was observed that they were just as good as american IT guys and they did it cheaper so a growing trend emerged. Fast forward years later it’s now a stereotype that they are really good at it. So in this example reality and performance shattered the preconceived notion about said minority and a positive stereotype based on performance was born.
What does this tell us about stereotypes and racism with other races in the workplace? I don’t know, perhaps nothing. Interesting example of attitudes toward minorities in the workplace nonetheless.
[quote]JMAX wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
I think slavery was unfair.
You think college admissions is unfair. Boo fucking hoo.
Also same fucking argument has been had a dozen times in the last year on this site. Why dont you stay on topic?
to my knowledge federal FAFSA financial aid is need based not race based. Any other money your friend supposedly got was from private grants who are free to allocate money as they see fit.[/quote]
Actually his post was quite on topic. So if someone makes an argument based on their opinion they are “ignorant” and lacking in life experience. If, however, someone posts a personal real world experience with the issue at hand the policy is to attack that as well…interesting.
Are you 100% certain minorities with similar grades etc don’t receive any different treatment? Good then. You just made a strong point that race and financial background is not a hindrance in pursuing higher education and advanced degrees.
Wonder where I’m wrong…I must either be off topic or lacking in life experience, even though that’s clearly not valued in this discussion either. I’m sure someone well let me know while tossing around an f-bomb here and there ;)[/quote]
yeah maybe. fuck.
maybe its on topic.
- Women dont make the same money still dollar for dollar right? I dont know I havent looked at the data but I have heard it reported that way recently. What data do you have…80 cents on the dollar?
What I am referring to here is that when the male vs. female wage comparisons are made, they are not comparing apples to apples. I had this explained to me by a different sociology prof. They fail to take into account 1. age differences 2. seniority at the work place 3. education differences 4. prior work experience.
So, while there likely is still a wage gap, if men and women were chosen with more equal parameters, the 70% figure is way off. I’m not going to lie and say I know what it is, because I dont. I just don’t like numbers being thrown up on a PowerPoint without any reference data. I am actually a history major, so it is somewhat in my nature to question crap like this I guess. (show me the source)
[quote]Scrotus wrote:
Your teacher is a stupid hippy.
/end thread[/quote]
She is from Palestine.
Left wing, yes.
Hippie, no.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Aside from what the OP has written I believe minorities are at a disadvantage in the work force. I’ve spoken to older guys who’ve stated they have worked in mid-size companies that still like to keep it “all white” (his boss stated this to him explicitly). It wouldn’t surprise me if there were instances where an employer would read my ethnic name atop my resume and instantly thrown it away. [/quote]
I agree with this, but it’s the boss’ own personal beliefs, that were likely learned while he was being raised that caused him to desire to keep it “all white.” He was racist before becoming the boss, being the boss did not turn him into a racist.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$. [/quote]
Uhm, one of the reasons we saw less blacks in commercials in the early 80’s was because corporations thought that blacks selling products would cause those products not to sell as well as when whites are used in commercials. Every “black” commercial back then seemed to have racial stereotypes (from the music played in the background to the theme itself) in an effort to appeal to black viewers…as if blacks used in the commercial with the same type of music used in white commercials would somehow not have the desired effect.
However, that act itself can have larger repercussions and the effect can have a very large racial effect when the overall outcome is that blacks are seen as needing stereotypes to even sell products to black viewers let alone white ones.
You, for some strange reason, seem to think this does not happen without someone being outwardly “KKK” racist…which is utterly ridiculous yet is often the argument of many white people who try too hard to act as if there is no significant racism around today.
In a job setting, it is not uncommon to hear of people with “ethnic sounding names” being rejected for job positions. You can argue that “culture” is what is being protested but you would have to be extremely naive or purposely blind to not realize the potential racial effects of such an act overall.
You haven’t written anything yet that makes your teacher sound stupid on the matter.
You have written much that seems to show a lack of life experience.
[/quote]
Actually, prof, I do not think that someone needs to be wearing a white robe to be racist. All I am saying is that I think that racism exists in America in a much deeper level than from corporations. I just don’t belive capitalism is to blame for racism. What about countries that don’t practice capitalism? Is there not racism in these countries?
Depends on what you call “life experience.” I’ve been around a bit. Regardless, at least I gave a shit enough to ask what other people thought. I could have just said to myself “this is a bunch of crap” and blown it all off. I wanted to see if I was off base. Maybe I was trying to gain some “life experience.”