[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
For sam seed
OK. I read and didn’t agree with it. [/quote]
What a shame you are one of the reasons racism and prejudice is still prevalent in this country, maybe one day you will wake up and see the error in your thinking.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I haven’t read GAL in 3 or 4 months. I come back, and get to read the same damn thread that I swear was started in February… and last August… and October 2007. The funny thing is that I’m pretty sure it’s been the same people making the same points each time.
Can we skip to the point where we argue that since rappers use the N-word, I should be able to as well? Especially since I totally have black friends and stuff.[/quote]
You totally are able to.
If you dont mind that whitge people think you are a wigger wannabe, and black people might get kind of irrate.
Bottom life, life is not fair.
Bummer.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
…the speed at which individuals and families may remove themselves from poverty. The fact that, in many cases, more opportunity is provided to poor minorities than to poor whites lends credence to the possibility that the achievement gap is not a product of racial discrimination, past or present, but rather the product of socially and economically underachieving norms created and propagated by black popular culture itself.[/quote]
Is this a clever way of saying black people are lazy?
[quote]ddinante wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
…the speed at which individuals and families may remove themselves from poverty. The fact that, in many cases, more opportunity is provided to poor minorities than to poor whites lends credence to the possibility that the achievement gap is not a product of racial discrimination, past or present, but rather the product of socially and economically underachieving norms created and propagated by black popular culture itself.[/quote]
Is this a clever way of saying black people are lazy?[/quote]
No, it’s saying that there are forces within black popular culture (which are likely manifestations of poverty as they also appeal widely to impoverished white youth) that promote poor social and economic decision making and have a high degree of influence on vulnerable black youth.
At the age of 16, not everyone knows or realizes that getting good grades, going on to secondary education, and working hard at whatever your chosen profession is will lead to a more comfortable life. This is especially true of youth who have come up in poverty as they likely haven’t seen it for themselves. They do see and hear entertainers romanticizing dropping out of school, selling drugs, and committing crime and these same entertainers live lifestyles that these youth would love to lead.
Cliffs: Much of black popular culture promotes and glorifies poor decision making amongst youths.
If what you got out of that was “black people are lazy”, then you’re not very good at reading.
Just throwing this out there… Does anyone else get the feeling the OP is conducting a sociology experiment by making this thread?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]ddinante wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
…the speed at which individuals and families may remove themselves from poverty. The fact that, in many cases, more opportunity is provided to poor minorities than to poor whites lends credence to the possibility that the achievement gap is not a product of racial discrimination, past or present, but rather the product of socially and economically underachieving norms created and propagated by black popular culture itself.[/quote]
Is this a clever way of saying black people are lazy?[/quote]
No, it’s saying that there are forces within black popular culture (which are likely manifestations of poverty as they also appeal widely to impoverished white youth) that promote poor social and economic decision making and have a high degree of influence on vulnerable black youth.
At the age of 16, not everyone knows or realizes that getting good grades, going on to secondary education, and working hard at whatever your chosen profession is will lead to a more comfortable life. This is especially true of youth who have come up in poverty as they likely haven’t seen it for themselves. They do see and hear entertainers romanticizing dropping out of school, selling drugs, and committing crime and these same entertainers live lifestyles that these youth would love to lead.
Cliffs: Much of black popular culture promotes and glorifies poor decision making amongst youths.
If what you got out of that was “black people are lazy”, then you’re not very good at reading.[/quote]
A wee bit of “ad hominem” at the end-entirely unnecessary, I might add. Perhaps if you had written about impoverished youths looking at the wrong role models, I might not have noticed the phrase “black popular culture”. I see now that you have conflated the ideas of what keeps many poor people poor and what keeps many black people poor. And I think you need to re-read your post with a critical eye.
Such phrases as “…lends credence to the possibility that…” only mean that you’re not saying, just insinuating.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I haven’t read GAL in 3 or 4 months. I come back, and get to read the same damn thread that I swear was started in February… and last August… and October 2007. The funny thing is that I’m pretty sure it’s been the same people making the same points each time.
Can we skip to the point where we argue that since rappers use the N-word, I should be able to as well? Especially since I totally have black friends and stuff.[/quote]
You totally are able to.
If you dont mind that whitge people think you are a wigger wannabe, and black people might get kind of irrate.
Bottom life, life is not fair.
Bummer.
[/quote]
LOL, sarcasm sir… sarcasm.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
For sam seed
OK. I read and didn’t agree with it. [/quote]
What a shame you are one of the reasons racism and prejudice is still prevalent in this country, maybe one day you will wake up and see the error in your thinking. [/quote]
WTF? Because I didn’t agree with an article you posted (that doesn’t even have the authors name on it), I’m responsible for the racism in this country? Wow. It really says a lot about you that you would jump to that conclusion. I’m racist because I don’t agree with you? Interesting.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
For sam seed
OK. I read and didn’t agree with it. [/quote]
What a shame you are one of the reasons racism and prejudice is still prevalent in this country, maybe one day you will wake up and see the error in your thinking. [/quote]
WTF? Because I didn’t agree with an article you posted (that doesn’t even have the authors name on it), I’m responsible for the racism in this country? Wow. It really says a lot about you that you would jump to that conclusion. I’m racist because I don’t agree with you? Interesting.[/quote]
Oh but don’t you know that if it’s in writing and on the internet, it must be true. (can’t find the sarcasm font)
[quote]ddinante wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]ddinante wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
…the speed at which individuals and families may remove themselves from poverty. The fact that, in many cases, more opportunity is provided to poor minorities than to poor whites lends credence to the possibility that the achievement gap is not a product of racial discrimination, past or present, but rather the product of socially and economically underachieving norms created and propagated by black popular culture itself.[/quote]
Is this a clever way of saying black people are lazy?[/quote]
No, it’s saying that there are forces within black popular culture (which are likely manifestations of poverty as they also appeal widely to impoverished white youth) that promote poor social and economic decision making and have a high degree of influence on vulnerable black youth.
At the age of 16, not everyone knows or realizes that getting good grades, going on to secondary education, and working hard at whatever your chosen profession is will lead to a more comfortable life. This is especially true of youth who have come up in poverty as they likely haven’t seen it for themselves. They do see and hear entertainers romanticizing dropping out of school, selling drugs, and committing crime and these same entertainers live lifestyles that these youth would love to lead.
Cliffs: Much of black popular culture promotes and glorifies poor decision making amongst youths.
If what you got out of that was “black people are lazy”, then you’re not very good at reading.[/quote]
A wee bit of “ad hominem” at the end-entirely unnecessary, I might add. Perhaps if you had written about impoverished youths looking at the wrong role models, I might not have noticed the phrase “black popular culture”. I see now that you have conflated the ideas of what keeps many poor people poor and what keeps many black people poor. And I think you need to re-read your post with a critical eye.
Such phrases as “…lends credence to the possibility that…” only mean that you’re not saying, just insinuating.[/quote]
I use phrases such as “lends credence to the possibility of” since I am presented ideas with no hard factual support beyond my own observations and rational thought so I do not wish to convey them as documented fact. Others could learn a lesson from that.
I didn’t attack you, I simply stated that it either takes poor reading comprehension or deliberate misinterpretation to get what you got out of my statements.
If you think that what keeps white people poor and what keeps black people poor are somehow different, then you need to spend some time in Appalachia (I have) or in the depressed parts of the midwest (I also have) and see that glorification of crime and social dysfunction in the media is just as popular and common there as it is elsewhere. You need to re-examine your post with a critical eye, as it seems you are trying excessively hard to make poverty about race.
[quote]NvrTooLate wrote:
Oh but don’t you know that if it’s in writing and on the internet, it must be true. (can’t find the sarcasm font)[/quote]
lol, I keep forgetting this. I should’ve just read the article and said “My bad, you’re right.”. Now I have to live with the realization that I’m Archie Bunker incarnate because I disagreed with a random person’s point of view written on the Internet.
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
…the speed at which individuals and families may remove themselves from poverty. The fact that, in many cases, more opportunity is provided to poor minorities than to poor whites lends credence to the possibility that the achievement gap is not a product of racial discrimination, past or present, but rather the product of socially and economically underachieving norms created and propagated by black popular culture itself.[/quote]
Maybe you don’t like the use of the term “black popular culture”. Stronghold’s point, however, is that it’s also a matter of socio-economics. This is a term sociology students are very familiar with as it’s often at the core of the issue when studying statistics on poverty, wealth, crime, etc as it pertains to racism and racial differences. There are economics but also social attitudes and ideals that effect a person’s choices and direction in life.
As for the actual OP’s topic…that would take a lot of research on your part to argue. Having known a few poli sci prof’s myself (one is a very good friend of mine) I know that regardless of how many statistics they look at, they are still human beings with agendas and opinions. There is some degree of interpretation even when dealing with statistics. Sometimes you need to see why the numbers are telling you what they are to understand them. I reference the recent article someone posted about a dietary study. One of the correlations they found was obesity and poultry. Should we believe grilled chicken makes us fat now or maybe consider KFC and Popeye’s might be part of the reasons for this phemonena?
[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$. [/quote]
Well if that’s the case then companies that hire, yet underpay, minorities would see the minorities’ productivity equal and in some cases surpass the white males. Being that they are greedy, money-grubbing bastards who just want to make money wouldn’t they then seek out more minority workers? Would they start hiring people based more on their merits than their race as they see this pattern emerge? Or is the racism so powerful that the corporation would rather make less money than hire an african american with a degree from PSU, for example?
I don’t have these answers but maybe it would be something worth asking your professor. She may just argue that, since performance will be relatively equal they’ll just favor against minorities anyway. Worth discussion though…
[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$. [/quote]
Uhm, one of the reasons we saw less blacks in commercials in the early 80’s was because corporations thought that blacks selling products would cause those products not to sell as well as when whites are used in commercials. Every “black” commercial back then seemed to have racial stereotypes (from the music played in the background to the theme itself) in an effort to appeal to black viewers…as if blacks used in the commercial with the same type of music used in white commercials would somehow not have the desired effect.
However, that act itself can have larger repercussions and the effect can have a very large racial effect when the overall outcome is that blacks are seen as needing stereotypes to even sell products to black viewers let alone white ones.
You, for some strange reason, seem to think this does not happen without someone being outwardly “KKK” racist…which is utterly ridiculous yet is often the argument of many white people who try too hard to act as if there is no significant racism around today.
In a job setting, it is not uncommon to hear of people with “ethnic sounding names” being rejected for job positions. You can argue that “culture” is what is being protested but you would have to be extremely naive or purposely blind to not realize the potential racial effects of such an act overall.
You haven’t written anything yet that makes your teacher sound stupid on the matter.
You have written much that seems to show a lack of life experience.
[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$. [/quote]
And one counterexample would be all the Indian and Asian IT engineers that we’ve been hiring since the dotcom boom in the 1990’s. I’ve work in the field since 1999 and the minorities with the talent are hired over white people with less talent. Why? Because it’s more profitable to have someone that knows what the fuck they’re doing designing and maintaining their IT and communications infrastructure.
That’s just one hole in here theory that I have 1st hand experience with. I’m sure there are many more.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$. [/quote]
And one counterexample would be all the Indian and Asian IT engineers that we’ve been hiring since the dotcom boom in the 1990’s. I’ve work in the field since 1999 and the minorities with the talent are hired over white people with less talent. Why? Because it’s more profitable to have someone that knows what the fuck they’re doing designing and maintaining their IT and communications infrastructure.
That’s just one hole in here theory that I have 1st hand experience with. I’m sure there are many more.
[/quote]
It isn’t a hole in her theory at all because it is now an accepted stereotype that Indians/Asians are “good” at IT engineering fields. That same stereotype can keep other races and other minorities out of the same jobs.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It isn’t a hole in her theory at all because it is now an accepted stereotype that Indians/Asians are “good” at IT engineering fields. That same stereotype can keep other races and other minorities out of the same jobs.[/quote]
I was specifically addressing this point:
“She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.”
Which is a blanket statement about minorities. Of course, it could be taken out of context and she might be speaking of specific positions such as management or certain sectors. But as written above, I don’t agree with it.
I don’t think “hire those people who will make them the most money” directly leads to “tend to stray away from minorities”.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Thanks for all the input…
Just got out of class (yes it’s an elective) with her.
She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.
I just think that people have to be prejudice in the first place to think that minorities will not be as profitable as non-minorities. I think racism starts from the bottom (home) and works its way up. It seems to me that she thinks it starts from, or at least is made mainstream from corporations seeking to make $$. [/quote]
And one counterexample would be all the Indian and Asian IT engineers that we’ve been hiring since the dotcom boom in the 1990’s. I’ve work in the field since 1999 and the minorities with the talent are hired over white people with less talent. Why? Because it’s more profitable to have someone that knows what the fuck they’re doing designing and maintaining their IT and communications infrastructure.
That’s just one hole in here theory that I have 1st hand experience with. I’m sure there are many more.
[/quote]
It isn’t a hole in her theory at all because it is now an accepted stereotype that Indians/Asians are “good” at IT engineering fields. That same stereotype can keep other races and other minorities out of the same jobs.[/quote]
You’re acting like stereotypes don’t exist for any particular reason. Did you ever stop to think that MAYBE Indians are stereotyped as being “good” at IT jobs is because there is a HUGE amount of that industry outsourced to India because of their willingness to provide the same level of proficiency as American IT professionals for a much lower price?
Do you honestly think IBM, HP, Oracle, etc, etc decided they needed some IT support capability and the thought process was “well, let’s hire some Indians, I heard they’re supposed to be good at IT.” This shows a pretty hearty ignorance for how things actually work in the business world, but I suppose that you would know more about that than me since you’re a doctor and all.
This solidifies a point I made earlier, some of you are seeing racism everywhere because you want everything to be ABOUT race rather than race being a component of a bigger picture, whether or not racism is actually involved.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It isn’t a hole in her theory at all because it is now an accepted stereotype that Indians/Asians are “good” at IT engineering fields. That same stereotype can keep other races and other minorities out of the same jobs.[/quote]
I was specifically addressing this point:
“She just keeps saying that because the goal of capitalism is to make money, then the workforce will only hire those people who will make them the most money, which means they will tend to stray away from minorities. So unless this mindset changes, this form of racism will continue.”
Which is a blanket statement about minorities. Of course, it could be taken out of context and she might be speaking of specific positions such as management or certain sectors. But as written above, I don’t agree with it.
I don’t think “hire those people who will make them the most money” directly leads to “tend to stray away from minorities”.[/quote]
Why the hell would you assume the OP is presenting her point correctly? Does it even make sense to ignore that not all minorities get treated the same?
The basic point is still correct…if Asians are seen as “stereotypes:good at math and IT engineering positions” and we see tons of Asians and Indians entering that field suddenly because of cheap labor, your assumption is that being a minority of any sort is no hurdle at all in this society?
Really?