Finance Capitalism = Racism?

Off Topic
181

[quote]NvrTooLate wrote:
How many people contributing to this thread actually work in an executive position within a corporation? [/quote]

No need to be an exec to understand the history of capitalism. A better question might be how many have studied the history of capitalism? Some of the arguments so far lack any consideration of history, or even capitalism in large part.

Of course if someone wanted to narrow the focus of capitalism in just the financial system in the US, I encourage them to take a look at redlining and subprime lending.

182

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Anyone have any comments on this? I would like to make a good argument against this professor. She has too much of an agenda for my taste. I want to learn facts/theories whatever, but not be told how I should think.
She also posted a bogus stat stating blatantly that “women make 70% of men’s wages.” This, of course is based on faulty data (the men and women being studied are not of the same age, experience, or have same time on the job).

Just looking for thoughts.
[/quote]

Just to take the low-hanging fruit… The Equal Pay Act of 1963 requires that every employer justify that wages are not influenced by gender. Even a partially substantiated hint of breeching this law would have dire consequences for any firm. Remember that I work at a university, which means that I get to see the nuthouse from the inside. Soviet studies, Lit Crit, Middle Eastern studies, Sociology* – all of these fields and many more do not pass muster as more than agenda-driven political platforms for careerists. The most parochial people I have ever met have been some full faculty members. Seriously. What I mean to say is to assume that your professor has no special knowledge, no methodology for determining if she has a valid point and every reason to engage in some form of agitprop.

(The reason that you study at a university is not to get the answers, but to understand what the questions in the field are and what constitutes standards of proof that are acceptable. If you cannot articulate these at the end of the course, you have wasted your time and might have even been stupefied, viz., rendered less able to evaluate information. This is a real concern in many fields as they are currently taught at the university level. Just a professional observation… )

Most often claims that women make much less than men either quote statistics that are out of date or, more recently, are badly skewed. For instance, one recent claim that women working in the healthcare industry were badly underpaid was done by comparing every woman (including, the cleaning lady) against the most senior male medical specialists. Heck yeah an RN is making less than a brain surgeon, and it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with skills. This is typical and bespeaks more of politics trumping competence.

So where does the biggest discrepancy come from? Men generally will take on jobs and stick with them so they accumulate seniority. A woman who stops/delays her career for starting a family does not accumulate the same pay. A more recent study that made the rounds just a few weeks ago showed that in many fields, once seniority was taken into account, women were often overpaid by as much as 20%. I’m lazy, but it should be easy to find, e.g. on Reuters.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj

========
*For a truly amusing (and informative) look into the workings of Sociology you should read up on Alan Sokal’s (a Physicist) famous hoax, where he submitted a very stupid but politically correct paper to a respected journal (Social Life) and to his astonishment, got it published. He even co-wrote a book about the affair which is very well worth a read by everyone.

Edit: Sokal published in Social Text, not Social Life.

183

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]MUCRaider wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
How many people arguing here understand that capitalism is a way of organizing society to produce in a particular economic way? The fact most do not work at home, and that very few could produce anything (look at the rise of the service sector) is because of capitalism as an organizing force in society. It is not just hiring practices but the we even go to work rather than working at home.

MUCRider - the plantation system was the first example of the industrial manufacturing process that ushered in capitalism and there was no “accident” about the exportation of millions of Africans to (re)populate the Americas to provide forced labor that the local (having either died out in massive numbers or fled the lands conquered by Europeans) no longer provided.[/quote]

Hey - I wasnt the one that made the original statement about the plantation system. I was just addressing the “straw man” that someone else has setup in another post. I think you are correct. Your 1st paragraph is well said. I do not think people do understand that Capitalism is a way for society to be organized. I think most people just repeat what they hear that sounds good and think they understand. Right now Capitalism is being bastardized by many as a problem and that is where I think much of the misunderstanding stems from. [/quote]

I actually missed the earlier mention of the plantation system. Thank you for clarifying. My point was that capitalism developed in the US from the plantation system (both as a form of organizing labor and the North’s rise in textiles based on slavery in the South) putting racial labor policies at the foundation of capitalism in general and the US in particular.[/quote]

LOL.

If I wrote those exact words, there would be an all out war right now in this thread. They only seem to get agitated when certain people write certain things.

184

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
Finance Capitalism is to blame for the continuing racism in this country. It works like this: I interview two people for a job, one black and one white (her area of study is racism towards African Americans). I don’t want to offer the black guy any more money than I have to. I have to offer the white guy the same $ as the black guy. This leads to everyone being underpaid and having no control over their own lives. So the corporations keep racism alive. [/quote]

Part II of my answer. How convenient. Everything boils down to money. Or race. It’s all so terribly easy once you know the “trick” for seeing what is “really” going on.

“Finance Capitalism” is a Marxist term. She just told you she is biased. Remember that you only find Marxists on nice liberal college campuses, since they all died out in the wild. :o)

Look, as a capitalist pig, I don’t care at all what race the applicant is. In practice I have rarely if ever seen the racism she speaks of. Has she witnessed it? What is her source that people think this way? This is a crucial question, since as I have indicated in my last post, she has little incentive to play fair on any level. Here is my view: By providing a service to my clients I can keep them as long-term contracts which means I have a steady revenue stream, which, being in it for the money, is all I care about. Hiring someone who is good, paying them top dollar and making sure they are happy to work for me is money very well spent. Think of it this way, I pay an extra $10k a year for someone who brings in $500k in work. I would be more than happy to do that as a simple matter of business logic.

The central question I have for her analysis is this critical line “I have to offer the white guy the same $ as the black guy.” WHY? Because if I don’t then I’ll get in trouble with affirmative action laws? This implies strongly that it is affirmative action that is keeping her supposed racism alive. A more cogent argument from this example is that removing government oversight will help end racism. Is she really proposing that? I doubt it seriously.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj

185

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]MUCRaider wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
How many people arguing here understand that capitalism is a way of organizing society to produce in a particular economic way? The fact most do not work at home, and that very few could produce anything (look at the rise of the service sector) is because of capitalism as an organizing force in society. It is not just hiring practices but the we even go to work rather than working at home.

MUCRider - the plantation system was the first example of the industrial manufacturing process that ushered in capitalism and there was no “accident” about the exportation of millions of Africans to (re)populate the Americas to provide forced labor that the local (having either died out in massive numbers or fled the lands conquered by Europeans) no longer provided.[/quote]

Hey - I wasnt the one that made the original statement about the plantation system. I was just addressing the “straw man” that someone else has setup in another post. I think you are correct. Your 1st paragraph is well said. I do not think people do understand that Capitalism is a way for society to be organized. I think most people just repeat what they hear that sounds good and think they understand. Right now Capitalism is being bastardized by many as a problem and that is where I think much of the misunderstanding stems from. [/quote]

I actually missed the earlier mention of the plantation system. Thank you for clarifying. My point was that capitalism developed in the US from the plantation system (both as a form of organizing labor and the North’s rise in textiles based on slavery in the South) putting racial labor policies at the foundation of capitalism in general and the US in particular.[/quote]

LOL.

If I wrote those exact words, there would be an all out war right now in this thread. They only seem to get agitated when certain people write certain things.[/quote]

Yeah, because I expect you do go deeper than cheap drivel like this.

“Capitalism developed from the plantation system”.

Please.

186

Very interesting thread. I am a member of SEVERAL of the most discriminated against classes in our society: I am a felon (try getting a job when you’re a felon!). I didn’t graduated High School (guess that means I’m stupid, huh?). I grew up in poverty (electric getting cut off in the winter poverty). I was physically and emotionally abused growing up and left home at sixteen (as in hospitalized for two weeks with a punctured lung and broken ribs when the 2nd out of four stepfathers beat the shit out of me when I was 8 years old). I was the only white boy on my block and experienced racism directed at me for being white on a daily basis - including being jumped and beaten on a number of occasions where I was outnumbered. My teenage years were spent in criminal activity, blasting NWA on my boomin’ system, doing drugs and fucking bitches until I got busted for robbery and incarcerated for about 4 years.

I guess I should curl up into a little ball and cry myself to sleep every night, huh? I mean, I’m a VICTIM, here right? I experience racism, I grew up poor, I subscribed to the “evil” hip-hop culture (sarcasm), I had it pretty bad, right? I was 22 when I got out of prison and I started pushing a broom on a construction site…

… at age 32 my net worth was over a million dollars. I guess it’s because I’m white, right? LOL I mean busting my ass building a blue collar career as an electrician didn’t make me that much money. I didn’t have a degree in finance or anything. I didn’t have any family to help me out (most of my family wrote me off when I went to prison). I certainly don’t have any “special interest groups” or “affirmative action” programs to look out for MY white ass… So how on earth did my poor little disadvantaged self become successful?

First of all, I didn’t feel sorry for myself - not once. Second, decided that I wasn’t happy with where I was with my blue collar career and committed to making a change. I started reading the Wall Street Journal on the advice of an older friend. I had to rule out ALL of the possibilities that I believed wouldn’t give me a chance based on my “questionable” background, lack of marketable skills and lack of education (I’m pretty much computer retarded, so IT was out). That left selling insurance, real estate, mortgage, or starting a small business. I had no help with this process. Just my own dissatisfaction with my career and a desire to make better money. So back in 2003, I chose to get into mortgage.

So I got up at 4:30AM, went to my job at 6:00AM, got off at 2:00PM, drove home and showered and changed, drove to work by 4:00PM and worked until 10:00PM as a loan officer learning the job, making mistakes, learning how to network and develop a consistent pipeline, etc… And the rest is just hard fucking work, long hours and a desire to succeed.

Tell me why ANYONE, white, black, spanish, asian, whatever - CAN’T do this? I experienced racism, I was poor and don’t have an education (something I handled on my own through disciplined study), I can’t be hired by most companies because of my felony… If I can succeed, I am not buying all of the bullshit excuses I am seeing here about “institutionalized this, and victim that”. If an individual WANT’S to succeed, they CAN succeed here in the USA regardless of their race, color, national origin, sex, level of education, or what ever “self limiting” belief you have imposed upon yourself.

Excuses stink. And making excuses for a whole generation of a particular group is completely disenfranchising them more than racism ever could. ANYONE can succeed. If they don’t, they just don’t want it bad enough. I’m not saying it will be fair - LIFE ISN’T FAIR. But opportunity exists for those who have the eyes to see it and the work ethic to pursue it.

187

You’re accusing me of faulty logic when you can’t even correctly define racism? No one has to be burning crosses, but there does have to be intent to discriminate based on race in order for your claims of racism to have any merit.

Speaking of logic fails, what makes you think that a business can be so coordinated between all of it’s various departments and managers as to create and sustain an institutional policy of racial discrimination while still hiring enough minorities to avoid legal action and keeping the whole thing a big secret? This is you trying to paint anything you don’t like as racist. I bet you think the fact that grocery stores have less shelf space devoted towards black hair care products than to white hair care products is founded in racism rather than markets, huh?

You never answered my question, how much experience do you have in the corporate world?[/quote]

why does there have to be intent? Discrimination can be an accidental or subconscious byproduct.

188

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Very interesting thread. I am a member of SEVERAL of the most discriminated against classes in our society: I am a felon (try getting a job when you’re a felon!). I didn’t graduated High School (guess that means I’m stupid, huh?). I grew up in poverty (electric getting cut off in the winter poverty). I was physically and emotionally abused growing up and left home at sixteen (as in hospitalized for two weeks with a punctured lung and broken ribs when the 2nd out of four stepfathers beat the shit out of me when I was 8 years old). I was the only white boy on my block and experienced racism directed at me for being white on a daily basis - including being jumped and beaten on a number of occasions where I was outnumbered. My teenage years were spent in criminal activity, blasting NWA on my boomin’ system, doing drugs and fucking bitches until I got busted for robbery and incarcerated for about 4 years.

I guess I should curl up into a little ball and cry myself to sleep every night, huh? I mean, I’m a VICTIM, here right? I experience racism, I grew up poor, I subscribed to the “evil” hip-hop culture (sarcasm), I had it pretty bad, right? I was 22 when I got out of prison and I started pushing a broom on a construction site…

… at age 32 my net worth was over a million dollars. I guess it’s because I’m white, right? LOL I mean busting my ass building a blue collar career as an electrician didn’t make me that much money. I didn’t have a degree in finance or anything. I didn’t have any family to help me out (most of my family wrote me off when I went to prison). I certainly don’t have any “special interest groups” or “affirmative action” programs to look out for MY white ass… So how on earth did my poor little disadvantaged self become successful?

First of all, I didn’t feel sorry for myself - not once. Second, decided that I wasn’t happy with where I was with my blue collar career and committed to making a change. I started reading the Wall Street Journal on the advice of an older friend. I had to rule out ALL of the possibilities that I believed wouldn’t give me a chance based on my “questionable” background, lack of marketable skills and lack of education (I’m pretty much computer retarded, so IT was out). That left selling insurance, real estate, mortgage, or starting a small business. I had no help with this process. Just my own dissatisfaction with my career and a desire to make better money. So back in 2003, I chose to get into mortgage.

So I got up at 4:30AM, went to my job at 6:00AM, got off at 2:00PM, drove home and showered and changed, drove to work by 4:00PM and worked until 10:00PM as a loan officer learning the job, making mistakes, learning how to network and develop a consistent pipeline, etc… And the rest is just hard fucking work, long hours and a desire to succeed.

Tell me why ANYONE, white, black, spanish, asian, whatever - CAN’T do this? I experienced racism, I was poor and don’t have an education (something I handled on my own through disciplined study), I can’t be hired by most companies because of my felony… If I can succeed, I am not buying all of the bullshit excuses I am seeing here about “institutionalized this, and victim that”. If an individual WANT’S to succeed, they CAN succeed here in the USA regardless of their race, color, national origin, sex, level of education, or what ever “self limiting” belief you have imposed upon yourself.

Excuses stink. And making excuses for a whole generation of a particular group is completely disenfranchising them more than racism ever could. ANYONE can succeed. If they don’t, they just don’t want it bad enough. I’m not saying it will be fair - LIFE ISN’T FAIR. But opportunity exists for those who have the eyes to see it and the work ethic to pursue it.

[/quote]

People come to you for advice and you give them what are basically self-esteem excercises. So presumably you respect the power of psychology. What if a million times over for four or five generations you saw your culture and your people put in a box marked other? If you werent of extra-ordinary talent and ability it might affect you deeply. If you were of extra-ordianry ability you might be able to scratch and claw out of your hole.

189

It’s an excuse. People are responsible for their condition in life. I personally know more than 20 successful individuals who have immigrated here from different countries, didn’t speak the language when they got here, some were even illegal immigrants. They started a business with what ever money they could scrape together and are now very successful. Several of them are multi-millionaires. Most of them were dirt poor when they got here and rented a room and worked construction to make ends meet and build capital to start their business - WHILE sending money home to their families.

Why can’t an American do that? Ever heard of being an 8A contractor? http://www.sba8a.com/ read about it. The federal government HAS TO GIVE YOU CONTRACTS!!! All a minority has to do is open a business and fill out some paperwork and it’s HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER!!! But they don’t.

Who’s fault is that?

Many of the immigrants I mentioned didn’t take advantage of these programs and are very successful by their own efforts, so it can be done. That being said, I also know plenty of people who immigrated here and are still poor and not doing anything with their lives - these are generally the same one’s who chose to continue to work construction…

So the people who are willing to take a risk, and be persistent until they are successful, are the ones who break the cycle. Those who refuse to take a risk and better themselves just stay STUCK where they are. It isn’t about racism, or classism or any other “ism” you want to point the finger at, it’s lack of motivation and a refusal to take action. The opportunity is there and is even MORE so for a minority starting out. I’m talking non-recourse loans, grant’s, free legal counseling, county incubator programs - all kinds of advantages that I, as a white male, am NOT eligible for.

It’s not just minorities who are poor, either. I know PLENTY of poor white people who have stayed just as STUCK as many minorities who blame “the system”, only they don’t have anyone to blame but themselves. Imagine that.

190

[quote]Eli B wrote:

People come to you for advice and you give them what are basically self-esteem excercises. So presumably you respect the power of psychology. What if a million times over for four or five generations you saw your culture and your people put in a box marked other? If you werent of extra-ordinary talent and ability it might affect you deeply. If you were of extra-ordianry ability you might be able to scratch and claw out of your hole.[/quote]

I give the advice that I feel will move someone in the most positive direction the fastest. In the C/Q thread self esteem exercises are one of many things I recommend. I didn’t create the socio-economic climate that plagues America’s inner cities. I was BORN there. I can promise you that I personally experienced blatant racism directed at me on a daily basis, was jumped countless times, had my basketball stolen and told in no uncertain terms, “white boy go home” as he lifted his shirt showing the nine in his dip… I have personally felt the sting of racism. I remember when I was a boy that I wished that I was black so that I could fit in and not get chased home from school. Or that people who were friends with me in private would acknowledge me in public in front of their peers. I GET IT. It didn’t hold me back, though. It didn’t make me a racist. I didn’t use it as an excuse to be a victim.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. People of ALL race, nationality, color and background would do well to remember this.

191

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

People come to you for advice and you give them what are basically self-esteem excercises. So presumably you respect the power of psychology. What if a million times over for four or five generations you saw your culture and your people put in a box marked other? If you werent of extra-ordinary talent and ability it might affect you deeply. If you were of extra-ordianry ability you might be able to scratch and claw out of your hole.[/quote]

I give the advice that I feel will move someone in the most positive direction the fastest. In the C/Q thread self esteem exercises are one of many things I recommend. I didn’t create the socio-economic climate that plagues America’s inner cities. I was BORN there. I can promise you that I personally experienced blatant racism directed at me on a daily basis, was jumped countless times, had my basketball stolen and told in no uncertain terms, “white boy go home” as he lifted his shirt showing the nine in his dip… I have personally felt the sting of racism. I remember when I was a boy that I wished that I was black so that I could fit in and not get chased home from school. Or that people who were friends with me in private would acknowledge me in public in front of their peers. I GET IT. It didn’t hold me back, though. It didn’t make me a racist. I didn’t use it as an excuse to be a victim.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. People of ALL race, nationality, color and background would do well to remember this.

[/quote]

Why would it hold you back in itself? While you can claim you experienced direct racism from other poor blacks, what in society or the world stood as the same representation when it comes to those in higher positions who could actually affect your progress in life? Unless born after maybe 1985-1990, chances are great that you experienced racism from those in positions of power if you were a black person. Chances are also great that there would be a LONG history of this present throughout your family history, shaping how everyone related to you even sees themselves in relation to society. It would be more akin to an abusive household where the cycle is rarely broken until a victim learns to somehow get past the same sequence of events.

Simply put, the two are not the same unless you grew up in a society where whites as a whole were subject to the same heavy racist slant that was openly visible until just maybe 25 years ago. I mean, the Tuskegee Experiment didn’t even end until the early 80’s and I don’t remember whites being targeted for scientific testing.

192

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

People come to you for advice and you give them what are basically self-esteem excercises. So presumably you respect the power of psychology. What if a million times over for four or five generations you saw your culture and your people put in a box marked other? If you werent of extra-ordinary talent and ability it might affect you deeply. If you were of extra-ordianry ability you might be able to scratch and claw out of your hole.[/quote]

I give the advice that I feel will move someone in the most positive direction the fastest. In the C/Q thread self esteem exercises are one of many things I recommend. I didn’t create the socio-economic climate that plagues America’s inner cities. I was BORN there. I can promise you that I personally experienced blatant racism directed at me on a daily basis, was jumped countless times, had my basketball stolen and told in no uncertain terms, “white boy go home” as he lifted his shirt showing the nine in his dip… I have personally felt the sting of racism. I remember when I was a boy that I wished that I was black so that I could fit in and not get chased home from school. Or that people who were friends with me in private would acknowledge me in public in front of their peers. I GET IT. It didn’t hold me back, though. It didn’t make me a racist. I didn’t use it as an excuse to be a victim.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. People of ALL race, nationality, color and background would do well to remember this.

[/quote]

Why would it hold you back in itself? While you can claim you experienced direct racism from other poor blacks, what in society or the world stood as the same representation when it comes to those in higher positions who could actually affect your progress in life? Unless born after maybe 1985-1990, chances are great that you experienced racism from those in positions of power if you were a black person. Chances are also great that there would be a LONG history of this present throughout your family history, shaping how everyone related to you even sees themselves in relation to society. It would be more akin to an abusive household where the cycle is rarely broken until a victim learns to somehow get past the same sequence of events.

Simply put, the two are not the same unless you grew up in a society where whites as a whole were subject to the same heavy racist slant that was openly visible until just maybe 25 years ago. I mean, the Tuskegee Experiment didn’t even end until the early 80’s and I don’t remember whites being targeted for scientific testing.

[/quote]

X, I am NOT saying that the Tukegee Experiment didn’t happen or that Millions of blacks weren’t routinely disenfranchised. Nor am I saying that racism doesn’t exist today. I’m a white guy and every so often I’ll come across another white guy who want’s to “wink wink, nod nod” and make racist jokes or what ever. It happens. It’s always BEHIND the back of the minority in question and it’s always unnecessary. I generally avoid people like that once I see that side of them. While it isn’t PREVALENT in the social circles I travel in, I’d be lying if I said I never saw racism anywhere.

That being said, I still stand by my assertion that opportunity is there for those who choose to take it. When I grew up, I didn’t really have a strong grasp of politics, I only really knew my neighborhood. And the small businesses in my neighborhood were owned by every nationality BUT whites. So your theory of a lack of role models, while may be true politically, certainly didn’t apply to being a successful business owner. There are SO many opportunities out there for minorities now. A percentage of ALL government contracts HAVE to go to 8A or minority owned businesses - even if they are not the lowed bid. There are plenty of businesses and performance based jobs that don’t discriminate against ANYONE, where results are truly the only limiting factor of your income. So if someone feels they cant succeed, they are wrong. They just have to choose the vehicle for their success and work hard at it. I know PLENTY of successful minorities, black, spanish, asian, middle eastern - I live and work in northern Virginia, it’s a virtual melting pot here. There’s plenty of opportunity for everybody. They just have to stand up and take it.

193

One more thing. I’m going to copy and paste something you wrote up there, “It would be more akin to an abusive household where the cycle is rarely broken until a victim learns to somehow get past the same sequence of events.” Do you see how you identified the plight of black people with that of a victim in an abusive household? I can relate to that, as I grew up in an abusive household. My mother and her four husbands would certainly have been put in jail for child abuse had they done the things they did to me in this day and age. I won’t go into it, but it wasn’t pretty. But I survived it.

Ask any victim who has truly overcome the adversity of the events that hurt them about how they were able to move on. They will invariably tell you the same thing: that they LET IT GO.

It’s painful. It’s hard. It’s makes you angry, sad and full of shame and a desire for justice all at the same time. But in order to move on you have to let it go. That won’t happen until a majority of blacks stop identifying themselves as victims and encourage others to, as you put it, ‘get past the same sequence of events’ or ends the cycle.

That may not be the answer you wanted to hear, but it’s the truth. I also don’t see it happening in this generation either, but I have hope that I will see it in my lifetime.

If it’s any encouragement to you, both of my children play happily with and have plenty of friends who are minorities. (technically, my kids are half Bolivian, does that make them minorities? LOL) My eldest son doesn’t use the term “black people” he uses “African American” and I don’t think he is even of racism. I have consciously reinforced ideals of equality in my children and I see similar attitudes in their friends. So I am doing my part to end the cycle.

194

I view your points as good and valid but to say that adverse life circumstances, and racism on the scale of your neighborhood is the same as adverse circumstances and a damn near global level of racism and ignorance seems incongrous to me. What was a disadvantage in your neighborhood is an advantage in day to day interactions with people in power in the larger world. Banks, police, school etc.

If that is less true today, it was true for this generations parents who raised our contemporaries to distrust institutions of society that now in some cases seek to aid these same groups.

Please don’t think that I’m trying to take anything away from what you’ve accomplished. It really is extra-ordinary. But thats just it, extra-ordinary people make it out but I think a few bad breaks can hold back the good or just adequate. I think there is the potential for more to break bad for a poor black kid than a similarly disadvantaged poor white kid. Again, less so as the effects of the past begin to fade, but I dont think its just to discount the validity of some excuses. Its not a get out of jail free card, I just think it calls for some understanding.

I agree with your other points and I feel that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of opposing viewpoints.

I can stomach asking people to excercise discipline and responsibility but too often those same arguments bleed over into theories of genetic superiority and callous disregard.

195

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

X, I am NOT saying that the Tukegee Experiment didn’t happen or that Millions of blacks weren’t routinely disenfranchised. [/quote]

If you are comparing getting into a few fights growing up to what my grandfather experienced in the US military, then I would say you are very much trying to decrease the effect that racism had on an entire race in this country.

[quote]

Nor am I saying that racism doesn’t exist today. I’m a white guy and every so often I’ll come across another white guy who want’s to “wink wink, nod nod” and make racist jokes or what ever. It happens. It’s always BEHIND the back of the minority in question and it’s always unnecessary. I generally avoid people like that once I see that side of them. While it isn’t PREVALENT in the social circles I travel in, I’d be lying if I said I never saw racism anywhere.

That being said, I still stand by my assertion that opportunity is there for those who choose to take it. [/quote]

…and opportunities are less if you don’t have the guidance to reach those goals. My parents were teachers. My mom looked for the best schools. Because they could afford a car, I went to schools FAR from the ones I was actually zoned to. There is no way in hell I would be doing what I do now without their guidance and support. Do you really think the average lower class family in urban areas has that kind of support or even knowledge of the resources available as they work two jobs and are barely home for the kids in the first place?

Yes, success is possible. It is way more possible if you are smarter than average, have above average guidance from someone else before you and have better access.

To deny the role that these factors play is simply dishonest.

[quote]
When I grew up, I didn’t really have a strong grasp of politics, I only really knew my neighborhood. And the small businesses in my neighborhood were owned by every nationality BUT whites. So your theory of a lack of role models, while may be true politically, certainly didn’t apply to being a successful business owner. [/quote]

What?!
Dude, who are you talking to? All you had to do was turn on any tv and see whites in positions of power. Hell, until The Jeffersons, there hadn’t been even one single public SUCCESSFUL portrayal of a wealthy black man on tv in prime time. Are you really going to pretend that the world was the same for you as it was for all of those other guys you grew up with assuming you were born before 1980?

[quote]

There are SO many opportunities out there for minorities now. [/quote]

There are…NOW. It took a hell of a long time for us to reach this point also and for the benefits to reach those less fortunate in a society that openly displayed racism in my life time, it will take more time.

[quote]

A percentage of ALL government contracts HAVE to go to 8A or minority owned businesses - even if they are not the lowed bid. There are plenty of businesses and performance based jobs that don’t discriminate against ANYONE, where results are truly the only limiting factor of your income. So if someone feels they cant succeed, they are wrong. They just have to choose the vehicle for their success and work hard at it. I know PLENTY of successful minorities, black, spanish, asian, middle eastern - I live and work in northern Virginia, it’s a virtual melting pot here. There’s plenty of opportunity for everybody. They just have to stand up and take it.[/quote]

Right…and there is no way in hell we would be at this point without literally forcing a change through the 80’s and 90’s.

196

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]MUCRaider wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
How many people arguing here understand that capitalism is a way of organizing society to produce in a particular economic way? The fact most do not work at home, and that very few could produce anything (look at the rise of the service sector) is because of capitalism as an organizing force in society. It is not just hiring practices but the we even go to work rather than working at home.

MUCRider - the plantation system was the first example of the industrial manufacturing process that ushered in capitalism and there was no “accident” about the exportation of millions of Africans to (re)populate the Americas to provide forced labor that the local (having either died out in massive numbers or fled the lands conquered by Europeans) no longer provided.[/quote]

Hey - I wasnt the one that made the original statement about the plantation system. I was just addressing the “straw man” that someone else has setup in another post. I think you are correct. Your 1st paragraph is well said. I do not think people do understand that Capitalism is a way for society to be organized. I think most people just repeat what they hear that sounds good and think they understand. Right now Capitalism is being bastardized by many as a problem and that is where I think much of the misunderstanding stems from. [/quote]

I actually missed the earlier mention of the plantation system. Thank you for clarifying. My point was that capitalism developed in the US from the plantation system (both as a form of organizing labor and the North’s rise in textiles based on slavery in the South) putting racial labor policies at the foundation of capitalism in general and the US in particular.[/quote]

LOL.

If I wrote those exact words, there would be an all out war right now in this thread. They only seem to get agitated when certain people write certain things.[/quote]

Yeah, because I expect you do go deeper than cheap drivel like this.

“Capitalism developed from the plantation system”.

Please.
[/quote]

Would you like the reference for my statement? It is a history piece on global trade that considered how labor was organized (and moved) globally in order to produce goods to be consumed away from the site of production. More specifically, the expansion of sugar from a scarce commodity to a cheap global commodity and the economic system that developed in order to make that happen. It also speaks to the organization of labor on the plantation that would latter be replicated in the textile mills in Manchester England and elsewhere. The authors mention this idea as a growing understanding within the field of history.

So basically, it is about capitalism developed as a standard of economic organization in the Western world and elsewhere.

If you think this is drivel you need to reconsider your understanding of the topic.

197

Another note, studying economics is not the same as studying capitalism. There are base assumptions to economics that do not hold up to the least bit of scientific scrutiny. From what I understand economists are just now starting to deal with that reality.

198

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]NvrTooLate wrote:
How many people contributing to this thread actually work in an executive position within a corporation? [/quote]

No need to be an exec to understand the history of capitalism. A better question might be how many have studied the history of capitalism? Some of the arguments so far lack any consideration of history, or even capitalism in large part.

Of course if someone wanted to narrow the focus of capitalism in just the financial system in the US, I encourage them to take a look at redlining and subprime lending.[/quote]

This thread isn’t just about understanding the history of capitalism. The clash is whether or not there is institutionalized racism. If you look back in my previous posts, you’ll see what point I’m trying to make. My contention is that institutionalized racism is so minor that it isn’t even worth our time arguing about it. I was merely trying to get a “show of hands” of posters that actually work for a corporation to see if anyone else has experienced racism first hand.

You can study capitalism and it’s theory and history all you want but until you’ve actually contributed to the bottom line in a large company you really are not at the right level to answer my question

199

[quote]Eli B wrote:
I view your points as good and valid but to say that adverse life circumstances, and racism on the scale of your neighborhood is the same as adverse circumstances and a damn near global level of racism and ignorance seems incongrous to me. What was a disadvantage in your neighborhood is an advantage in day to day interactions with people in power in the larger world. Banks, police, school etc.

If that is less true today, it was true for this generations parents who raised our contemporaries to distrust institutions of society that now in some cases seek to aid these same groups.

Please don’t think that I’m trying to take anything away from what you’ve accomplished. It really is extra-ordinary. But thats just it, extra-ordinary people make it out but I think a few bad breaks can hold back the good or just adequate. I think there is the potential for more to break bad for a poor black kid than a similarly disadvantaged poor white kid. Again, less so as the effects of the past begin to fade, but I dont think its just to discount the validity of some excuses. Its not a get out of jail free card, I just think it calls for some understanding.

I agree with your other points and I feel that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of opposing viewpoints.

I can stomach asking people to excercise discipline and responsibility but too often those same arguments bleed over into theories of genetic superiority and callous disregard.[/quote]

The genetic superiority argument is bullshit. Anyone who has studied evolutionary biology/psychology will tell you that environmental factors weigh FAR heavier in the scheme of how an organism adapts that genetics. I’ve met plenty of people who are minorities who, while lacking education, have the ability think more clearly, more abstractly and further into the future while maintaining perspective in the present than I can, and I’m of above average intelligence. I believe that MOST people, black, white, brown, yellow, etc… (barring any brain damage or disease) have what it takes to be successful in today’s world given the proper education. We are all HUMAN. At one point, blacks in Africa had the most powerful empire in the world in Egypt WAY before Europeans and Asians developed the same technology and standards of civilization… And if you want to get “nit-picky”, who do you think was the labor force in the Egyptian empire? SLAVES. Slavery is not a new concept that white Europeans invented when they discovered America. I think this is widely accepted enough that I don’t need to give links, we all learned about this in school.

200

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

Would you like the reference for my statement? It is a history piece on global trade that considered how labor was organized (and moved) globally in order to produce goods to be consumed away from the site of production. More specifically, the expansion of sugar from a scarce commodity to a cheap global commodity and the economic system that developed in order to make that happen. It also speaks to the organization of labor on the plantation that would latter be replicated in the textile mills in Manchester England and elsewhere. The authors mention this idea as a growing understanding within the field of history.
[/quote]

I very much would like a source for that. The reason is that “Capitalism” never quite existed the way most people think. First off there was Mercantilism – dominant in antiquity, ebbed a bit in the Middle Ages then dominated until the rise of what I will call Commerce, which was outlined by Adam Smith, although he certainly never created it. Karl Polyani argues well that the first actual instances of this were only in Britain in 1834.

(I’m trying to avoid the term “Capitalism”, which was never used by Marx, who favored “Judentum” = Jew-ery and was popularized by the Nazi economist Werner Sombart. To my ears, “Capitalism” is simply racist, but I have an extensive understanding of early 20th century history, since until about 1940 the most standard stock phrase was “Jewish Capitalism”.)

Mercantilism is by and large responsible for the plantation system we find so abhorrent, in which commodities were produced by non-commercial means, such as slavery, and the system of financing it as well as distribution was essential feudal. The idea was to essentially maximize revenue and hard currency reserves for the state at all costs. What’s more, the government would seek to regulate what we would consider well-run profitable businesses. In Britain’s New England colonies, small businesses often found themselves suddenly obliged to pay taxes or other such rent-seeking* measures, which they keenly felt. The phrase “taxation without representation” was really the rallying cry also to end Mercantilism. A large part of the American system of government is aimed at making the government itself play fair, i.e., abide by its own laws, which was most often never the case prior to that. (If you had a good business, the King could and likely would slap taxes on you or simply take it over outright, e.g. While we are not too historically minded, this is still why the US has such inertia about the government getting involved in economics.)

The rise of Commerce caused several, very far-reaching changes. For one thing, citizens rights must be guaranteed in order for it to work, so it is no coincidence that the most tolerant countries are also heavily into Commerce. Also, anything that can be commoditized can enter the system, which generally reduces cost and increases availability. This includes most everything that slaves did, so while Mercantilism gave us a terrible legacy, but the twin engines of industrialization and Commerce destroyed slavery as a viable institution. A plantation owner could get a tractor and replace his slaves, then take his raw cotton to a service that ran a cotton gin and baler. It was a lot cheaper and more reliable. We would arguably still have slaves if it were not for Commerce, so it was not morality that freed them, but economics.

(Very quickly, socialist as well as older – as in Biblical – approaches to wealth are that it is a constant and inherently evil. Most socialist theories state that therefore the lot of everyone is a slow descent into poverty and only state control with rational allocation of resources will save us all. Commerce (in particular Adam Smith’s most excellent analysis) states that it is human work that creates wealth, so that there is almost no limit to affluence. Since the wealth of the world has been doubling every few decades consistently since WW II, there is a good reason to think that Smith has been vindicated on this point. )

Lumping all of economics into Capitalism = “anything we don’t like that involves money” is a very common occurrence, both popularly and in Academia. As I have indicated in other posts on this thread, academic analyses of such hot-button topic are often very badly skewed for any number of reasons. For instance, Jared Diamond is widely respected but has a poor track record at getting it right. One of the more glaring examples was his famous analysis of Easter Island in which he concluded (surprise!) that the depopulation was all due to Ecological collapse and from this wove a morality play for Industrial nations. Pity he didn’t bother to consult the Islanders or many sources, which clearly showed that it was Chilean slave raiders and an epidemic of smallpox that easily accounted for most of the population decline.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj

=====

  • “Rent-seeking” is a very good term to learn if you do not know it. Rather than creating wealth, a rent-seeker attempts to thwart those who produce. In 3rd world countries, graft is a common form of this, where you must bribe an official to do his/her job. Taxes and other such measures are rent-seeking and in economic terms, all governments are rent-seeking, their abilities being almost wholly negative to production.