What does Craig Hogan bench?
And can I kill him by not thinking about him?
Even if I don’t think about him very hard and very long?
[quote]conorh wrote:
No, it doesn’t. Nothing in that article related anything of the sort.
How come every time some physicists write a paper on cosmology some flakes come out and give it a whole bunch of metaphysical new age flim-flam?
[/quote]
Good question.
[quote]conorh wrote:
I just don’t buy any of this paranormal flotsam. Joan of Arc wasn’t tapping into some kind of cosmic interconnected energy network; she was high on ergot. That woman who thought she was a reptoid was a schizophrenic. Spoon bending is a hoax, otherwise people would be repeating it under rigorous observable conditions.
There are physical, biochemical answers to these problems. I remember reading a thread on here talking about quantum theory and why puddles evaporate. I told my chem major roommate and he just looked at me, he couldn’t understand why you would want to ascribe something that can be explained classically to quantum theory.
Same here, why invent some complicated mumbo-jumbo to describe something that can be described simply, in physical terms?
I suppose you could argue that the naturalistic, physical explanations we have for various phenomena are actually manifestations of this Bohmian enfolded order, but then you have the situation where you have a strong explanatory model that fits into the greater model of understanding, but is really only propped up by a tuatology. In this case the mechanism behind the scenes is meaningless.
It’s like creationists who say God/the devil are faking the results of radioisotope assays to confuse people: well, if the results make sense and you can develop an entire model that works and doesn’t contradict any other empirical models, you might as well go with it and dispense with the underlying supernatural explanation.[/quote]
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. I and many other people can simply and easily demonstrate TK or Telekenesis. I have done it and so have many other people who I set up the expirament with. The simple expirament is to place a 2 inch by 2inch square peice of aliminium foil on a thumbtack. You have to fold the foil corner to corner both ways so it creates a center point upon which the foil sits on the tack. Then simply concentrate on spinning the foil. Some people can do it in a matter of seconds, other more sceptical people may need to see it done firsthand by a few people before they can themselves move the foil. I can do paper now instead of foil, which has higher friction than the foil.
I cannot explain it but I can do it. I also believe many people can do it because you can youtube it and find hundreds if not thousands of videos showing average people doing it. A lot of people claim it is a hoax, others try to site coniditons of heat radiation, or ambient air movement. I know for a fact that I am not rigging it up, and if I can do it so easily, why would others go through great troubles to fake it? And by others I mean thousands of people.
Ambient air currents or heat don’t explain it either. I have had the foil sit stationary for up to an hour at a time without moving in the slightest. Then with just a little nudge from my mind, I visualize the foil spinning on the tac, and lo and behold, it spins. Sometimes it spins fast and for a long time, other times it only does a couple revolutions slowly. Either way though, there is certainly more to the physical universe and our connection to it than meets the eye.
As to why everyone isn’t testing this under controlled scientific studies? Well I went to the mythbusters to propose they do it. They do all sorts of things like this and do them under pretty stringent controls. However, in order for them to consider doing a show on something, you have to post it on the forums. The level of criticism and ridicule I recieved there from “scientific” types was unreal. All the classic debunking was thrown at me and again, unless I personally came out and did a demonstration for someone to whitness, I can not really provide evidence because any video will be claimed to be altered, or a magnet set up, or some other such nonesense. The only way to really prove it can be done, and not have wind, or heat cause the movement, is for someone reputable to do it. Which is why I wanted the mythbusters to do it in the first place. As far as I know, they have never tested it and I get quickly tired of arguing with people who kept asking me for evidence that I could do it. (if I had concrete evidence, it wouldn’t be a job for the mythbusters now would it).
In any event, search for psiwheel on youtube, then try the expirament for yourself. It is simple, takes minutes to assemble and everyone already has aluminium foil and a thumbtack. It doesn’t reguire high powered magnets, plutonium, 100 9V batteries, and a time dilation generator to set this one up. I can’t say it will work for every single person that tries it on the first attempt, but I have never had a person try it that did not get at least some movement out of it. For beginners a good visualization is to hold your hand near the wheel and visualize energy pouring out of your hand and encircling the device causing a little tornado of energy around it. This usually makes it spin quite nicely. Once you develop your visualization skills, you can do it from a good distance just by visualizing the energy tornado starting up.
Also there is a new movie coming out called Push, which deals with this concept. Should be cool.
V
GUYS! IT’S THE MATRIX!
This is all just a hologram!
Hold my keyboard while I run jump off a building!
[quote]conorh wrote:
We’re actually at least in four dimensions, we just perceive our environment a three dimensional because we experience life through a series of infinitesimal snapshots of time. If this holotheory is correct, we’re projections into higher n-spaces from a universe that’s 2-dimensional, as I understand it.[/quote]
that’s how i understood it. we cannot perceive a truly 3D object because it would inherently exist outside of time (only in spacial dimensions). since human perception, as we currently understand it, can only perceive things through infinitely small time increments everything we perceive is in fact a 4D object.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
What does Craig Hogan bench?
[/quote]
I don’t know but Chris Langan Benches more than Professor X!
[quote]wfifer wrote:
All this means is that information is being projected from a 2-D surface into 3-D space. Everything is still happening on that surface–the physics is all the same. It has nothing to do with perception. [/quote]
Oh no it doesn’t. It means we are all just conscious thought floating freely in space. All our minds are clinging to the idea of “Earth” the way a bunch of ants cling to a twig out in the middle of a lake (well, if those ants really existed, that is) and all within this mutual concept of the Universe.
This is why we are so murderous and waring. Intuitively we all know if we kill someone we are really just expediting their jump to the next delusion.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
conorh wrote:
I just don’t buy any of this paranormal flotsam. Joan of Arc wasn’t tapping into some kind of cosmic interconnected energy network; she was high on ergot. That woman who thought she was a reptoid was a schizophrenic. Spoon bending is a hoax, otherwise people would be repeating it under rigorous observable conditions.
There are physical, biochemical answers to these problems. I remember reading a thread on here talking about quantum theory and why puddles evaporate. I told my chem major roommate and he just looked at me, he couldn’t understand why you would want to ascribe something that can be explained classically to quantum theory.
Same here, why invent some complicated mumbo-jumbo to describe something that can be described simply, in physical terms?
I suppose you could argue that the naturalistic, physical explanations we have for various phenomena are actually manifestations of this Bohmian enfolded order, but then you have the situation where you have a strong explanatory model that fits into the greater model of understanding, but is really only propped up by a tuatology. In this case the mechanism behind the scenes is meaningless.
It’s like creationists who say God/the devil are faking the results of radioisotope assays to confuse people: well, if the results make sense and you can develop an entire model that works and doesn’t contradict any other empirical models, you might as well go with it and dispense with the underlying supernatural explanation.
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. I and many other people can simply and easily demonstrate TK or Telekenesis. I have done it and so have many other people who I set up the expirament with. The simple expirament is to place a 2 inch by 2inch square peice of aliminium foil on a thumbtack. You have to fold the foil corner to corner both ways so it creates a center point upon which the foil sits on the tack. Then simply concentrate on spinning the foil. Some people can do it in a matter of seconds, other more sceptical people may need to see it done firsthand by a few people before they can themselves move the foil. I can do paper now instead of foil, which has higher friction than the foil.
I cannot explain it but I can do it. I also believe many people can do it because you can youtube it and find hundreds if not thousands of videos showing average people doing it. A lot of people claim it is a hoax, others try to site coniditons of heat radiation, or ambient air movement. I know for a fact that I am not rigging it up, and if I can do it so easily, why would others go through great troubles to fake it? And by others I mean thousands of people.
Ambient air currents or heat don’t explain it either. I have had the foil sit stationary for up to an hour at a time without moving in the slightest. Then with just a little nudge from my mind, I visualize the foil spinning on the tac, and lo and behold, it spins. Sometimes it spins fast and for a long time, other times it only does a couple revolutions slowly. Either way though, there is certainly more to the physical universe and our connection to it than meets the eye.
As to why everyone isn’t testing this under controlled scientific studies? Well I went to the mythbusters to propose they do it. They do all sorts of things like this and do them under pretty stringent controls. However, in order for them to consider doing a show on something, you have to post it on the forums. The level of criticism and ridicule I recieved there from “scientific” types was unreal. All the classic debunking was thrown at me and again, unless I personally came out and did a demonstration for someone to whitness, I can not really provide evidence because any video will be claimed to be altered, or a magnet set up, or some other such nonesense. The only way to really prove it can be done, and not have wind, or heat cause the movement, is for someone reputable to do it. Which is why I wanted the mythbusters to do it in the first place. As far as I know, they have never tested it and I get quickly tired of arguing with people who kept asking me for evidence that I could do it. (if I had concrete evidence, it wouldn’t be a job for the mythbusters now would it).
In any event, search for psiwheel on youtube, then try the expirament for yourself. It is simple, takes minutes to assemble and everyone already has aluminium foil and a thumbtack. It doesn’t reguire high powered magnets, plutonium, 100 9V batteries, and a time dilation generator to set this one up. I can’t say it will work for every single person that tries it on the first attempt, but I have never had a person try it that did not get at least some movement out of it. For beginners a good visualization is to hold your hand near the wheel and visualize energy pouring out of your hand and encircling the device causing a little tornado of energy around it. This usually makes it spin quite nicely. Once you develop your visualization skills, you can do it from a good distance just by visualizing the energy tornado starting up.
Also there is a new movie coming out called Push, which deals with this concept. Should be cool.
V[/quote]
Also, just because it’s a real phenomena doesn’t mean it happens for the reason you think it does. It reminds me of those little solar pinwheel things that turn if you put them in the sun: it took a relatively long time for the mechanism by which they operate to be explained, despite knowing about the phenomena.
If the effect exists, I assert there is a naturalistic explanation for it, it doesn’t amount to magic. If it happens for the reason you think it does, then there is some effect that we can discover operating on it and your brain. I don’t categorically deny “paranormal” phenomena, but I do deny supernatural ones, that’s all.
[quote]conorh wrote:
Vegita wrote:
conorh wrote:
Also, just because it’s a real phenomena doesn’t mean it happens for the reason you think it does. It reminds me of those little solar pinwheel things that turn if you put them in the sun: it took a relatively long time for the mechanism by which they operate to be explained, despite knowing about the phenomena.
If the effect exists, I assert there is a naturalistic explanation for it, it doesn’t amount to magic. If it happens for the reason you think it does, then there is some effect that we can discover operating on it and your brain. I don’t categorically deny “paranormal” phenomena, but I do deny supernatural ones, that’s all.[/quote]
I agree with this.
I was interested in that type of stuff a few years back, Vegita. Set up the wheel under a glass, firm surface; it wouldn’t even move if I blew air at the glass. Took me awhile, but I eventually did get it to spin - was interesting because I felt my brain doing something I hadn’t felt it do before - no other way to describe what it felt like.
You guys should read adventures in flatland. It’s an old book but it is an interesting take on dimensions.
One of the problems in understanding these theories is our very ego-centric viewpoint. If the universe (as we know it) exists because of thought, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s our brain’s thoughts, nor does it mean it’s somebody else’s. It could very well mean that we exist elsewhere, and this body is merely a physical manifestation that allows our other selves to interact with this 3d universe. BTW, there’s nothing “new age” about that. That’s a millennium old belief.
I think the hologram analogy is seriously flawed. Yes, you can capture the information about a 3d scene on a 2d piece of film by the interference of 2 coherent light sources. A smaller dimension can capture the description of a higher dimension. No, you cannot recreate that scene at all. All you can do is recreate a simulation of the scene. The scene is limited to the color of the lasers, and only exists as a perception of the information in the interference pattern, a 3d image. In fact, you must look at the hologram to see the image, and the image appears to be on the other side. You can’t touch it; it isn’t real.
That said, it is possible that the physical universe as we can perceive it is the result of interacting waveforms, possibly based on the proton vibrating frequency. In that case, we are living inside the hologram itself and can’t perceive the higher dimensionality, due to limitations of our physical universe. All we can perceive is the medium holding the information and can’t see what the hologram represents.
There is a theory of quantum consciousness that suggests the proximity of the synapses in the brain allows them to interact with quantum processes. (That does explain why sometimes the neurons fire spontaneously.) If so, then our brains might be a physical interface allowing some form of interaction with quantum processes, perhaps a consciousness that exists at different, higher dimensions.
We better figure this all out before 2012. LOL!
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Tinfoil pinwheel
V[/quote]
My mother, when she was doing therapeutic hypnosis (assisting with overeating, drinking, and smoking) had a similar exercise for clients.
In this, she drew a large circle with an X separating the circle into four sections. She had the client hold a weight on the end of a string, at the epicenter of the X. She had the client then visualize the weight moving up and down the vertical line, and shortly, the weight moved. Again, for the horizontal. A third time, for the circle itself.
Small finger movements were obvious. With the tin pinwheel exercise, the micro-movements are harder to pick up, since the movements necessary are much smaller than those needed to move a weight attached to a six inch string.
Her clients, at least a few, thought it was telekinesis, magic. She explained it was an exercise designed to do two things: focus the mind on a single task, allowing for relaxation, and to demonstrate how the mind affects the systems of the body.
It’s the mind-muscle connection. In very vague terms, which can unfortunately be used by the “the universe, etc, is an illusion” cult, conscious thought can affect physiological responses as if the thoughts were tactile input or the conscious movement of muscles.
Bodybuilders, martial artists, and athletes use the same type of visualization to affect specific attribute improvements.
no tinfoil hat necessary, it’s physiology, it’s science, and it’s fun
When physics becomes philosophy:
or, was it ever really a hard science in the first place?
I completely understand skeptacism. And Vash, you are correct, I can’t explain why it works, but I know visualization helps, or is necassary. Basically, if I have some unseen connection with the wheel that I can manipulate with thought alone, I don’t really care if it can be measured.
Physical, means very little to me, I mean energy exists, yet it is not pysical, energy has no mass, and it does not have any particle associated with it. Essentially it is an idea, a word we use to describe interactions amongst things with mass.
Since we live in a Physical world, it is possible that the energy in my brain, using visualization is transferred via collision reactions all the way out of my hand or skull, through the air particles, through a glass, and onto the surface of the wheel. Or, perhaps energy does not need to be transfered through collision reactions.
Anyways, it was just a little expirament that I like to have people do to show that there is indeed much more to this existance than meets the eye.
Back to the oprigional topic. Some “new age” info that is interesting at the very least. visit trufax.org and read up on the “matrix” material. I actually ordered the matrix V book because it was all very interesting stuff.
Again, not saying that I “bvelieve” it, but I believe it is one possible real scenario, amongst others. It could be all Sci-Fi, but I love that stuff anyways, so reading it was fun and made me consider a lot of what if’s.
A quick rundown of the concept is that the 3rd dimension and 4th dimension worlds are indeed holographic “programs” in the true sense of the word. And that higher dimensional beings interact with the 3rd and 4th dimensions much like we would play a game of halo, or monopoly.
I can do considerable less in Halo than I can in real life. I don’t breathe, piss, shit, eat, make love, etc… But there are some very fun things in halo that I don’t do in my real life. Drive a warthog, throw a sticky grenade, Shoot my friend in the face with a sinper rifle etc…
My life may be approx 80 years long, but to a higher demensional being, time may be irrelevant, or they may exist for millions or billions of our years, or even some timespan that we cannot comprehend, like millions of our universes back to back to back.
So even though a life for us seems long, to them it may be the equivalent of sitting down for a couple hours and playing a MMORPG. And just like the Halo universe has set constraints, and a whole set of physics, it doesn’t mean that those constraints can’t be hacked, modified, or that nothing exists outside of them.
And just as master chief will never comprehend that he is not throwing the grenade, that some guy with a controller is making his every action for him, we will probably never really be able to comprehend, if it is in fact the reality for us, that we are just a part of, a higher dimensional being who is just having some fun with us in a 3d holographic video game.
I just read an article in discover magizine, where a guy has successfully made a robot brain with the equivalent intelligence of a houscat. Also to his surprise, and unlike other smaller brains he made. It talks to itself if there is no outside stimulus.
His other nrains only responded to outside stimulus, if a noise was heard, or if it was touched, etc…but this brain will sit and effectively think, even with the lack of outside stimulus (all sensors are disabled)
So I think if we are on the brink of creating a self aware device, that a higher dimensional being, or society of beings, who are not bound by our universal laws, would be capable of setting up this matrix where we look, feel, smell, taste, think, have emotions, etc…
And they have us interfaced in a way which thier control is subtle, and virtually undetectable by us.
Anyone who has played an MMORP such as world of warcraft, know fully well how easy it is to become locked into that world. Even with a simple interface and measly graphics as that game has, you can become immersed into that world and actually forget for periods of time that you are in fact playing a game.
Imagine a just like the matrix, a program so complete that every aspect felt 100% real. Total sensory input.
Again, this could all just be a big sci-fi work that the author happens to believe is real. Either way, it is entirely possible.
V
No One?
V
[quote]Vash wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Tinfoil pinwheel
V
My mother, when she was doing therapeutic hypnosis (assisting with overeating, drinking, and smoking) had a similar exercise for clients.
In this, she drew a large circle with an X separating the circle into four sections. She had the client hold a weight on the end of a string, at the epicenter of the X. She had the client then visualize the weight moving up and down the vertical line, and shortly, the weight moved. Again, for the horizontal. A third time, for the circle itself.
Small finger movements were obvious. With the tin pinwheel exercise, the micro-movements are harder to pick up, since the movements necessary are much smaller than those needed to move a weight attached to a six inch string.
Her clients, at least a few, thought it was telekinesis, magic. She explained it was an exercise designed to do two things: focus the mind on a single task, allowing for relaxation, and to demonstrate how the mind affects the systems of the body.
It’s the mind-muscle connection. In very vague terms, which can unfortunately be used by the “the universe, etc, is an illusion” cult, conscious thought can affect physiological responses as if the thoughts were tactile input or the conscious movement of muscles.
Bodybuilders, martial artists, and athletes use the same type of visualization to affect specific attribute improvements.
no tinfoil hat necessary, it’s physiology, it’s science, and it’s fun[/quote]
This is something called the ideomotor effect (small movements that are caused by the brain, but are not perceived by the person doing them)
The “Psi Wheel” is a tad different, it seems, because there is no direct contact. Many of the videos on Youtube have the wheel under a piece of glass. I have my doubts that the mind is actually moving the object, as there are fairly clear demonstrations that its a simple matter of air temperature changes causing currents caused by the hands:
http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Psi%20wheel%20video.html
It is a very interesting effect though.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Vash wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Tinfoil pinwheel
V
My mother, when she was doing therapeutic hypnosis (assisting with overeating, drinking, and smoking) had a similar exercise for clients.
In this, she drew a large circle with an X separating the circle into four sections. She had the client hold a weight on the end of a string, at the epicenter of the X. She had the client then visualize the weight moving up and down the vertical line, and shortly, the weight moved. Again, for the horizontal. A third time, for the circle itself.
Small finger movements were obvious. With the tin pinwheel exercise, the micro-movements are harder to pick up, since the movements necessary are much smaller than those needed to move a weight attached to a six inch string.
Her clients, at least a few, thought it was telekinesis, magic. She explained it was an exercise designed to do two things: focus the mind on a single task, allowing for relaxation, and to demonstrate how the mind affects the systems of the body.
It’s the mind-muscle connection. In very vague terms, which can unfortunately be used by the “the universe, etc, is an illusion” cult, conscious thought can affect physiological responses as if the thoughts were tactile input or the conscious movement of muscles.
Bodybuilders, martial artists, and athletes use the same type of visualization to affect specific attribute improvements.
no tinfoil hat necessary, it’s physiology, it’s science, and it’s fun
This is something called the ideomotor effect (small movements that are caused by the brain, but are not perceived by the person doing them)
The “Psi Wheel” is a tad different, it seems, because there is no direct contact. Many of the videos on Youtube have the wheel under a piece of glass. I have my doubts that the mind is actually moving the object, as there are fairly clear demonstrations that its a simple matter of air temperature changes causing currents caused by the hands:
http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Psi%20wheel%20video.html
It is a very interesting effect though.[/quote]
I can assure you it has nothing to do with air currents caused by temperature. If you don’t believe me, set it up and put a lighter or match where your hand would normally be. It won’t make the wheel turn, I have tried it. I have also dipped my hand in ice, and then done it with a cold hand, still works. Also at this point I can spin it without putting my hand near the device. I can sit comfortably 3 feet away at this point and with a handkerchief covering my face (so I don’t blow on it) still get it to spin.
I understand the concept behind ideomotor effects, but I don’t think it really has anything to do with this. Like I said, I have done all the debunking I could myself and to my standars, without high tech instramentation, I just can’t percieve how it works, but it does work.
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
I can assure you it has nothing to do with air currents caused by temperature. If you don’t believe me, set it up and put a lighter or match where your hand would normally be. It won’t make the wheel turn, I have tried it. I have also dipped my hand in ice, and then done it with a cold hand, still works. Also at this point I can spin it without putting my hand near the device. I can sit comfortably 3 feet away at this point and with a handkerchief covering my face (so I don’t blow on it) still get it to spin.
I understand the concept behind ideomotor effects, but I don’t think it really has anything to do with this. Like I said, I have done all the debunking I could myself and to my standars, without high tech instramentation, I just can’t percieve how it works, but it does work.
V[/quote]
If I didnt make it clear the first time, this is definitely something besides the ideomotor effect in action since no physical contact is being made with the object, the brain has no room to make imperceptible movements to make the paper spin.
The video link I posted definitely shows something going on besides a psi effect. There are other videos on youtube showing that a radiator can make the object spin as well. This does not rule out the possibility of there actually being a psi effect, but given that I’ve never, ever seen anything that even remotely resembles “psi” being a reality, I’m inclined to lean towards the air-current hypothesis or some other idea that does not include the “mind control” aspect.
Again, I am not ruling out the possibility that their is indeed an effect taking place between the brain and the object (We will call that “psi”), however I think there is something else at work that is more easily explainable by other, physical causes. You dipping your hands in ice actually would acheive the same effect as heating them since its the difference in temperatures between the air and your hands that creates the currents, not your hands being hot.
The whole setup of a super light, parachute shaped piece of paper perched precariously upon a toothpick just smacks of “something fishy” does it not? I want to see someone levitate a 45 pound plate (gotta keep it body building related, you know) or spin a Websters Dictionary around at will, maybe then I will be impressed… a quater ounce piece of paper spinning atop a tooth pick? Not terribly convincing in my opinion.