…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Here I did your homework for you.
â?¢Estimates of the annual number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 60s range from 200,000 to 1.2 million, even though abortion procedures were unsafe and often life-threatening, in addition to being illegal
â?¢During the 1950s and 60s, each year an estimated 160 to 260 women died from illegal abortions, while thousands more were seriously injured
So even if you take the lowest number of these abortions and use the highest death figure, and we are talking about a .0013 death rate of the mother. … Ooooh scary.
And if we go for the highest number of abortions preformed, and the lowest amount of deaths. .0001333%
Now that is something that we REALLY need to get a better handle on.
So the bottom line is, your only way to make it sound like these are horrific numbers is to attach all sorts of emotional factors to pull on the heartstrings of people so they feel sorry for the woman. Personally, I don’t feel sorry for any of them, I’m sure on an individual level, some of them got into some really bad spots that they really couldn’t control. You know what people get into a car and get killed because someone was stupid, people go to work and get into a work accident and die because someone else was stupid. People do a lot of things to other people over stupidity that there is going to be innocent victims every single solitary day. However, how people can draw the line and say, oh lets just kill off a baby because we can’t see it yet. It just seems beyond stupid to me. What if the mothers stomach was translucent and you could see it with the naked eye through all the stages of development. Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life?
V[/quote]
Now, I applaud you for your passion and I mostly agree with you, except for that outlawing thing, so I really shouldn’t be doing this but I can’t help myself. I just have to point out that the whole pro-life stance is one huge emotional factor in itself. Who would be interested in the whole subject if it wouldn’t touch emotions?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?[/quote]
I think it will just always be an inevidable conclusion. To some people certain things like human life are the most sacred. To others having a convenient life is more important. I’m not going into which one is right or wrong. I don’t even truly believe in right or wrong, I just believe in experience. And for me it hurts when one of those potential experiencers is cut short thier right to live and experience. There are so many days I wish for the collapse of modern civilization it isn’t even funny. Complete Chaos would make more sense to me because at least I could blame chaos on things not making any sense.
V
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?[/quote]
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Here I did your homework for you.
�¢?�¢Estimates of the annual number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 60s range from 200,000 to 1.2 million, even though abortion procedures were unsafe and often life-threatening, in addition to being illegal
�¢?�¢During the 1950s and 60s, each year an estimated 160 to 260 women died from illegal abortions, while thousands more were seriously injured
So even if you take the lowest number of these abortions and use the highest death figure, and we are talking about a .0013 death rate of the mother. … Ooooh scary.
And if we go for the highest number of abortions preformed, and the lowest amount of deaths. .0001333%
Now that is something that we REALLY need to get a better handle on.
So the bottom line is, your only way to make it sound like these are horrific numbers is to attach all sorts of emotional factors to pull on the heartstrings of people so they feel sorry for the woman. Personally, I don’t feel sorry for any of them, I’m sure on an individual level, some of them got into some really bad spots that they really couldn’t control. You know what people get into a car and get killed because someone was stupid, people go to work and get into a work accident and die because someone else was stupid. People do a lot of things to other people over stupidity that there is going to be innocent victims every single solitary day. However, how people can draw the line and say, oh lets just kill off a baby because we can’t see it yet. It just seems beyond stupid to me. What if the mothers stomach was translucent and you could see it with the naked eye through all the stages of development. Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life?
V
Now, I applaud you for your passion and I mostly agree with you, except for that outlawing thing, so I really shouldn’t be doing this but I can’t help myself. I just have to point out that the whole pro-life stance is one huge emotional factor in itself. Who would be interested in the whole subject if it wouldn’t touch emotions?[/quote]
Well it really can be very emotionless. I believe I have the right to life. I believe that all humans have that right, else I would have no problem with someone killing me or one of my family members for someone elses convenience, like say I took a parking spot they wanted. But since I value my right to life, and I am a fair and just person, I also have to value the right of every other human being, including those who are one cell in size. See you have to be selfish to want your right to life to be respected by other people, but not in turn respect every other persons right to life. And thus we are back to… What is a person. I have clearly defined it as the human organism, with it’s unique DNA from the moment it exists as one cell to the moment it perishes. Again, you can take or leave my definition of a human being, but science would probably back me up.
V
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
[/quote]
What if someone else killed the fetus within the first 16 weeks, since in your eyes it is not a life, should they be prosecuted? Is it similar to stepping on a bug? What if I kicked a pregnant lady in the stomach and she was in her 15th week? do I get charged with assault or assault and murder or manslaughter? Why can’t the husband decide? Does the mother own the fetus? Can one human Own another Human?
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
What if someone else killed the fetus within the first 16 weeks, since in your eyes it is not a life, should they be prosecuted? Is it similar to stepping on a bug? What if I kicked a pregnant lady in the stomach and she was in her 15th week? do I get charged with assault or assault and murder or manslaughter? Why can’t the husband decide? Does the mother own the fetus? Can one human Own another Human?
V[/quote]
…haven’t we been here before? Only the woman decides, no-one else.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
What if someone else killed the fetus within the first 16 weeks, since in your eyes it is not a life, should they be prosecuted? Is it similar to stepping on a bug? What if I kicked a pregnant lady in the stomach and she was in her 15th week? do I get charged with assault or assault and murder or manslaughter? Why can’t the husband decide? Does the mother own the fetus? Can one human Own another Human?
V
…haven’t we been here before? Only the woman decides, no-one else.
[/quote]
Why does the woman decide? If I remember correctly, the common reason is it is her body right? Well since I have already ad nauseum proven without a doubt the fetus is in no way shape or form, her body, I will not accept that as a reason for murder. But if you have another reason why a woman can decide to murder I will hear you out.
V
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
Looks like I have to ask it again. Why?[/quote]
…because you don’t have the right to deny a woman an abortion within those 16 [or 21 in real life] weeks if she chooses to have one…
[quote]Vegita wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
What if someone else killed the fetus within the first 16 weeks, since in your eyes it is not a life, should they be prosecuted? Is it similar to stepping on a bug? What if I kicked a pregnant lady in the stomach and she was in her 15th week? do I get charged with assault or assault and murder or manslaughter? Why can’t the husband decide? Does the mother own the fetus? Can one human Own another Human?
V[/quote]
You will find in the law that if you where to do that you would get charged with murder. And if the women owns the child then the child is slave. This debate will continue to go around in circles, you will find that the ones who claim science is the end all will quickly ignore it if it goes against there ideas. These people are not rational they are driven by the desire to watch everything get destroyed. They claim to love human life but will take it away at it’s beginning. They are nothing more then wolves in sheep’s clothing.
[quote]Vegita wrote:Why does the woman decide? If I remember correctly, the common reason is it is her body right? Well since I have already ad nauseum proven without a doubt the fetus is in no way shape or form, her body, I will not accept that as a reason for murder. But if you have another reason why a woman can decide to murder I will hear you out.
V[/quote]
…it’s her womb. The fetus depends on her blood, her nutrients for growth. She is the only one that has a say in this matter. Your opinion is irrelevant.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Well it really can be very emotionless. I believe I have the right to life. I believe that all humans have that right, else I would have no problem with someone killing me or one of my family members for someone elses convenience, like say I took a parking spot they wanted. But since I value my right to life, and I am a fair and just person, I also have to value the right of every other human being, including those who are one cell in size. See you have to be selfish to want your right to life to be respected by other people, but not in turn respect every other persons right to life. And thus we are back to… What is a person. I have clearly defined it as the human organism, with it’s unique DNA from the moment it exists as one cell to the moment it perishes. Again, you can take or leave my definition of a human being, but science would probably back me up.
V[/quote]
You are fair and just and I’m selfish, gotcha 
I did actually do some quick reading about abortions since I started following this thread. It’s seems to be so, that the amount of abortions in a society correlates weakly with the legal status it happens to have, but strongly with unintended pregnancies in general. I admit that I’m a cold-hearted bastard and hardly care if someone has an abortion. But, if I cared, I would look closely on the causes for unintended pregnancies.
I say that you want to have abortions outlawed just because it would make you feel good.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Why does the woman decide? If I remember correctly, the common reason is it is her body right? Well since I have already ad nauseum proven without a doubt the fetus is in no way shape or form, her body, I will not accept that as a reason for murder. But if you have another reason why a woman can decide to murder I will hear you out.
V
…it’s her womb. The fetus depends on her blood, her nutrients for growth. She is the only one that has a say in this matter. Your opinion is irrelevant.
[/quote]
A newborn is completely dependent on the mother for food after birth. Does she have the right to not feed it? May want to rework your argument.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Why does the woman decide? If I remember correctly, the common reason is it is her body right? Well since I have already ad nauseum proven without a doubt the fetus is in no way shape or form, her body, I will not accept that as a reason for murder. But if you have another reason why a woman can decide to murder I will hear you out.
V
…it’s her womb. The fetus depends on her blood, her nutrients for growth. She is the only one that has a say in this matter. Your opinion is irrelevant.
[/quote]
So Says you, So Says You. By that argument, I can starve a 1 year old because it relies on my nutrients for it’s development. It lives in my house.
V
[quote]John S. wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Why does the woman decide? If I remember correctly, the common reason is it is her body right? Well since I have already ad nauseum proven without a doubt the fetus is in no way shape or form, her body, I will not accept that as a reason for murder. But if you have another reason why a woman can decide to murder I will hear you out.
V
…it’s her womb. The fetus depends on her blood, her nutrients for growth. She is the only one that has a say in this matter. Your opinion is irrelevant.
A newborn is completely dependent on the mother for food after birth. Does she have the right to not feed it? May want to rework your argument. [/quote]
…anyone can feed the child. No-one but the pregnant woman can feed the fetus. Try again.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Why does the woman decide? If I remember correctly, the common reason is it is her body right? Well since I have already ad nauseum proven without a doubt the fetus is in no way shape or form, her body, I will not accept that as a reason for murder. But if you have another reason why a woman can decide to murder I will hear you out.
V
…it’s her womb. The fetus depends on her blood, her nutrients for growth. She is the only one that has a say in this matter. Your opinion is irrelevant.
So Says you, So Says You. By that argument, I can starve a 1 year old because it relies on my nutrients for it’s development. It lives in my house.
V[/quote]
…anyone can feed the child. No-one but the pregnant woman can feed the fetus. Try again.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Vegita wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Vegita wrote:Would you still be able to do physical harm to the very most defensless and innocent form of human life? V
…within the first 16 weeks: yes.
Why?
…we’re still talking about abortion, remember? I do not share the same sentiments Vegita has on life and when it starts. So abortion within the first 16 weeks is fine by me because all women should have that option available to them, simple as that.
What if someone else killed the fetus within the first 16 weeks, since in your eyes it is not a life, should they be prosecuted? Is it similar to stepping on a bug? What if I kicked a pregnant lady in the stomach and she was in her 15th week? do I get charged with assault or assault and murder or manslaughter? Why can’t the husband decide? Does the mother own the fetus? Can one human Own another Human?
V
You will find in the law that if you where to do that you would get charged with murder. And if the women owns the child then the child is slave. This debate will continue to go around in circles, you will find that the ones who claim science is the end all will quickly ignore it if it goes against there ideas. These people are not rational they are driven by the desire to watch everything get destroyed. They claim to love human life but will take it away at it’s beginning. They are nothing more then wolves in sheep’s clothing. [/quote]
Any science I have looked at, seems to view a single cell human embryo as a human life. I don’t know how this would translate into science backing abortion. But I hear you. It is rarely an argument or discussion that changes a persons mind. At one time I was pro abortion, and had even considered what I would do had the mother of my 8 year old daughter consider abortion. I cannot without hesitation say I would have said I was against it back then. I am very glad however that that decision was not made. I think I would be having a hard time living with myself had it occured and I was complacent with the decision.
V