Spieker, I thank you for again proving my point that you haven’t a thing to say, yet you type many words.
Free Ex, I relate completely to what you’re talking about with regard to time and to senseless debate – I had that problem in regard to a newsgroup I used to participate in. I hope you get un-bogged down soon to where the forum can be a pleasant diversion instead of taking you away from what needs to be done: your contributions are often invaluable, with your information here on insulin resistance being a perfect example of that. I learned quite a bit from you here. Thanks.
FACT - Adding fat to a P+C meal would reduce insulin. Berardi’s diet is a misguided on insulin as it is on nutrition (eg not combining carbs with fat hence reducing absorption of fat soluble vitamins etc). For those that havent realised, the poster of this rant is not an expert on this matter and should not hold himself out as such. Its a pity people like him and Bill cant find a balance between the real world and the forums they whine about. I could go on but each sentence is costing me $785k in lost income.
I’m with Bill here, Free Ex. I check in here maybe once per day but don’t post very often, simply because one post can turn into a time-consuming debate which can lead to frustration.
Although we don't totally agree about Metformin's effects, I must admit, you're an intelligent guy with some great knowledge to share with people. Hope you get caught up with your work schedule.
PS Metformin was recently shown not to increase body fat in healthy men. One day I'll have you convinced. :-)
Wow! What an eminently erudite post! I have clipped it and saved it in my growing library of WORD files on exercise, training, and nutrition. WELL DONE!
Ooh, ooh, I’m just so cool becuase tear other
people down! If you disagree with something the guy wrote, fine. Go ahead and make your point and contribute something positively
rather than spewing negativity. Maybe he is wrong. But if you can’t contribute something positive then SHUT THE FUCK UP!!
its fasting blood glucose over 126, and it has to be repeated to be a valid diagnosis. 110 is upper normal.
As Paul just pointed out, this is the case with all clinical readings. If a patient comes in with a blood pressure of 150/98, that doesn’t mean that you immediately throw them onto a regimen of beta blockers. It has to be a consistant reading considering any one reading may be a fluke and not a constant. Also, these guidelines for glucose readings are not arbitrary lines that are drawn but are based on research and are also ever changing once it is found that an earlier diagnoses can prevent the disease. Having a hard time losing fat does not mean you are about to get diabetes.
Sorry, Prof X, but you’re wrong about it not being arbitrary. Please tell me the difference between one over and one under the cutoff point. There is none. THAT is why it is arbitrary, much like the voting and drinking ages. I understand what I believe you’re trying to say, that being that the number given is roughly based on research, however an exact number may be sufficient for an AVERAGE over a given population, but it’s hardly a standard to appy to all people.
To Dave:
1. Adding fat to a meal will reduce
the glucose response to a meal. It won’t
necessarily reduce the insulin response to
a meal. The idea you are citing is based on
the assumption that all pancreatic insulin
response is glucose-based. But researchers
are now finding that is not the case: there
are many factors that can effect how much
insulin your pancreas produces. And some
studies have shown that mixed meals (C+P+F)
will cause a greater insulin release than
a carb only meal, despite the fact that the
carb only meal causes a greater glycemic
response. GI and II aren’t always so well
correlated.
2. I never claimed to be an expert on this topic, and explicitly stated the contrary in what I wrote above. So your comment on that is redundant.
Regarding your criticism of the use of *my* time: well gee, Dan, are you going to pay the salary of my employees? Are you going to pay my rent? Are you going to pay for my food and supplements? Are you going to pay for my savings and investment? What's that? No, you aren't? Then I suggest you not be critical of how I choose to use *my* time. If you have some legitimate critique of the information I provided, great; we can all learn from it. Personal barbs really aren't useful.
To Paul:
The measure of 126 mg/dl was the old
measure. Six months or so ago both the ADA
and the NIH made the recommendation that the
measure should be lowered to 110 mg/dl. (I
vaguely remember that the AMA is also planning
to change their recommendation.) I recently
spoke with 3 different MDs about this, and
they all confirmed that they are using the
lowered 110 mg/dl number. If you check around
with local MDs in your area, I think you will
find this to be the case. But yes, the measure
should be repeated to validate the diagnosis.
As far as testing for type 2 diabetes goes, I wish they would drop the fasted glucose test altogether and instead use a combination of two tests: 1. An OGTT followed by measurements of both blood glucose and blood insulin. This gives you an idea of a person's glucose tolerance, but it also lets you know how hard a person's pancreas has to work to normalize blood glucose, and also how well their pancreas is functioning. It is unlikely that this method will be used regularly however, because of the cost involved. 2. The other test that can be very useful (more so than fasted glucose) is a hemoglobin A1c test, which is based on the level of glycated hemoglobin. It accumulates over time, and it is found in excessive amounts in poorly controlled (or undiagnosed) diabetics. Since it is a test of an accumulated substance rather than an indicator of a momentary glucose level, the HbA1c indicates the level of glucose control during the preceding approx two months. Both of these tests are superior to a fasted glucose because 1. the fasted glucose doesn't tell you anything about pancreatic function, nor how well the system will respond under load, and 2. it only gives you a measure of function at that particular moment, not over time.
Doc T. that is why I mentioned that all readings have to be consistent. They also have to added in with all other findings. There is very little in medicine that can be diagnosed with one given figure. All data is put together to come up with a diagnosis. There have to be lines drawn or else there is no standard to go by. Just like you have people on this forum trying to calculate their caloric intake based on a formula when their individual body may not go by that standard. That doesn’t erase the usefulness of the formula for providing a basis to work with.
Good Research! Read several of your sources. I am currently concerned about my status, Cuts are healing slower now (maybe just age). Could you give some sample of how you have adjusted your diet?
Thanks.
Prof X, I completely agree that we have to draw the line somewhere. That’s my point. We just decided to draw the line there. Either way, we’re splitting hairs here. I use the current figure as my cutoff, however I warn my patients if they’re even borderline high so that they can begin to adjust their lifestyles.
I agree that this was an extremely informative post by FE.
I have a question too.I have noticed that androgens,particularly Winstrol,cause me to feel hypoglycemic often.If I consume something like a meal replacement drink made of whey and maltodextrin and don’t eat again in a couple of
hours I often get extremely hypo with shaky legs,profuse sweating and extreme hunger for something sweet.Is this a sign of insulin resistance or what?I have read conflicting reports stating both increased insulin sensitivity and insulin resistance with steroids.BTW,I have a diabetic friend and his insulin requirement went up on a cycle.But I also remember reading about a study here on the forums where the requirements went down when diabetics went on steroids.
To Older Lifter:
Just because your cuts are healing more
slowly doesn’t by itself mean anything, let
alone that you have type 2 diabetes or insulin
resistance. Could just be age. COuld be
something else. If you’re really concerned
about you should talk to your doctor about it.
I do want to strongly point out that I'm not trying to make everyone who reads this paranoid that they have type 2 diabetes. Since most of the people who read this forum are athletes who eat healthy diets, it's likely that the majority of people who read this don't currently have a problem. But there have been a number of people on here who have described themselves as "carb sensitive" and it is my opinion that many of those types of people are at increased risk for type 2 diabetes or insulin resistance.
Regarding my diet: briefly, I have found that a diet of 35% C, 40% P, and 25% F works best for me. I have also noticed significant benefit from eating split meals rather than mixed meals. The carbs I eat are mostly all low GI. I make sure to get most fat from monounsaturated fats (olive oil), poly-3 fats (flax) and plenty of EFA's (fish oil, GLA), because these are all helpful for improving diabetic conditions. I also try to minimize saturated fats because they make diabetic conditions worse. I've been experimenting with my diet heavily over the past year. Although there is research that shows healthy people typically have better insulin sensitivity earlier in the day, I've found that for me personally, either my insulin sensitivity and/or my pancreatic function seems to be better later in the day. (So it is clear that my insulin system is not functioning normally.) So my first 3 meals of the day are P+F and my last 3 or 4 meals of the day are P+C. (I exercise in the evening, so that may be responsible for the better carb tolerance later in the day.) I find that I feel better and have much more energy earlier in the day if I don't eat carbs. So what I do in that regard is exactly backwards from what John Berardi recommends. I do think that consuming *large* quantities of high GI carbs even post wkot can be counterproductive to people with type 2 diabetes or insulin resistance - both in terms of body comp and health. (JB might disagree.) For post wkot I prefer to use a small amount of high GI carb, plus a moderate amount of medium GI carb, and protein, of course.
To omnibus:
From your description of your reaction to
whey + malto, it is impossible to know. Those
symptoms could be a sign that you have *good*
insulin sensitivity. You would have to have
blood work done to know.
Regarding androgens and insulin sensitivity, the research results have been mixed, depending on which androgen is being studied. Two studies I found (1, 2) show that testosterone had no effect either way on blood glucose or insulin levels. However one study I found (2) demonstrated that nandrolone decreased both blood glucose and insulin. This could imply improved insulin sensitivity - however the researchers concluded that this was due to insulin-independent glucose disposal, not improved insulin sensitivity. On the other hand, another study (3) showed that oxymetholone promotes insulin resistance, allegedly because of its effect on liver metabolism. Another study (4) found this to also occur with stanozolol. So that might also apply to other 17aa steroids as well.
1. Friedl, KE, et al. The administration of pharmacological doses of testosterone or 19-nortestosterone to normal men is not associated with increased insulin secretion or impaired glucose tolerance. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (1989) May 68(5):971-975.
2. Hobbs, CJ, et al. Nandrolone, a 19-nortestosterone, enhances insulin-independent glucose uptake in normal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (1996) 81(4):1582-1585.
3. Woodard, TL, et al. Glucose intolerance and insulin resistance in aplastic anemia treated with oxymetholone. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (1981) 53(5):905-908.
4. Kailin, X, et al. Hyperinsulinemia accompanying hyperglycemia in Chinese patients with aplastic anemia. Am J Hematol (1997) 56(3):151-4.
Thank You.
F.E., thanks man. Posts like this make this board something far more than entertainment. Whatever your qualifications are this is invaluable info. My “award winning” Doctor who just ran a baterry of test on me has nothing to offer, so I care little what someone’s qualifications are. You never held yourself out as a Doctor so the caveat is there; you are beyond criticsm. After some recent faux pas I’m not entriely sure I even trust the medical community anymore. IN large at least (no offense to the good docotors here, budding or otherwise). Nothing is more valuable then self initiated research.
Your post regarding your diet is much llike mine. I am dead if I eat carbs in the day but can pound them at night without becoming sleepy. May just be biorhythms, schedule, etc., but I think it’s the abnormal insulin response. Other than that modification the Berardi split-eating patterns make much sense.
Good to hear the patterns from someone else with what seems to be a very similar predisposition. I am only learning now how to cope with this and have been plagued with it for years, thus I devour posts like these. Moreover, I have found no other info of this caliber on any other web-site. T-mag in general f’ing rules!
Cheers,
Wayne
Free Ex - thanks for another excellent, informative post - very concise and value intensive. I appreciate your indepth info and plan on sharing it with family and friends. Good luck with the business, I’m sure you’ll dig out in no time.
I think that both DocT and Professor X are correct in this situation. Even though, I said the same thing (“cut off lines are arbitrary”), I realize that these lines are clearly based on research and are needed for insurance reasons. Still, it is important to understand the scale nature of blood readings rather than looking at the values as a step function. Just because you are slightly below the cut-off line does not put you into the clear. I realize that most of the T-mag readers are smart enough to realize this, but IMHO the general population is not nearly as aware of this aspect of blood readings. When I counsel people about risk factor management, it takes a lot of effort for me to convince the people that although they are in the so called “normal” range (be it glucose, cholesterol, blood pressure), it can still be an unhealthy value especially if several of these variables are in the high normal range.
Once again, I would like to thank everyone for participating in an excellent discussion and providing incredibly valuable information.
Excelent thread. Thanks
The following link gives the glucose/insulin scores for 38 foods. Yougurt and Mars Bars are the same. Other surprises are some of the fruits.