F#%k this Shit. I'm Outt'a Here!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

TB, legitimate question and honest curiosity. This answer has stuck in the back of my head for a few days. From what little information I have been able to find, revolution does indeed appear to be one of many means to secession. Why do you say otherwise?[/quote]

Revolution and secession are not the same thing. Secession is not a subset of revolution. Revolution is a throwing off of a government because certain rights have been violated - truly, a revolt. Secession is a lawful withdrawal.

The American Revolution was exactly that - a revolution, not a secession.

In our democratic republic? Nothing. If you don’t like something, the means of redress is through republican government, not by walking away, or threatening to walk away if you don’t get your way.

But first and foremost, there has to be a mechanism to secede. Other than calling a constitutional convention, there is no mechanism or “right” to secede. So, there is no justfication for secession, period. We never forfeit the right of revolution, however.

Well, if that is a problem, though (and it is), then the states have redress - Congress. That is the solution. If states don’t like the creep of the federal government, then they send Senators and Representatives to change the laws to fix the problem. States get their say.

And this is why secession is inconsistent with republican government - in a republican government, everyone gets their say, but no one is guaranteed to get their way, and that’s the system. Large factions of people and states (and states’ interests, like regional interests, for example) are going to be losers in this kind of government - and that is expected. That’s why we have elections every so often - to give everyone a say again, and the losers get a chance to carry the day with their arguments and become winners.

Secession is a lazy end around the hard work of representative government - if people are upset at federal creep, the solution is at the ballot box…but there is a chance that other people disagree in larger number.[/quote]

I have a friend who is always talking about how the people are going to rise up in arms against the federal creep that you speak of. But I remind him that there are not nearly enough people who feel the way he does. Who is going to rise up? Not the 47 million people getting food stamps. Not those who are getting extended unemployment benefits. Not the 100 million dependent on the federal goverment in one form or another.

Let’s face it big government in one form or another is here to stay. And anyone tries to take it away THEN there will be a revolt. My friend has it completely backwards.

42

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.[/quote]

Pride in roots.
[/quote]

I’d call it doublethink or, more simply, stupidity.[/quote]

That’s a rather prejudiced view. I too have grown up in the south. It’s been my experience that human beings are very much capable of taking pride in their ancestors while understanding times have changed. I realize stereotyping such individuals is popular, they being one of the few classes of people left we can stereotype freely (even encouraged to), but come on. Hell, before there was a confederate flag there was the stars and stripes flying over the American slave trade. Yet, black folks today salute it proudly.

43

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.[/quote]

Pride in roots.
[/quote]

I’d call it doublethink or, more simply, stupidity.[/quote]

That’s a rather prejudiced view. I too have grown up in the south. It’s been my experience that human beings are very much capable of taking pride in their ancestors while understanding times have changed. I realize stereotyping such individuals is popular, they being one of the few classes of people left we can stereotype freely (even encouraged to), but come on. Hell, before there was a confederate flag there was the stars and stripes flying over the American slave trade. Yet, black folks today salute it proudly.
[/quote]

Big difference. The stars and stripes represent the direction this entire country took…not just how it related to slavery. “Black folks” had no choice but to accept the culture of the country they were now in or it would make them traitors.

It should surprise no one that some feel unsettled around those now flying a flag contrary to the direction of this country…while calling themselves the ultimate patriots of it.

It is blatantly ironic.

44

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Big difference. The stars and stripes represent the direction this entire country took…not just how it related to slavery. “Black folks” had no choice but to accept the culture of the country they were now in or it would make them traitors.

It should surprise no one that some feel unsettled around those now flying a flag contrary to the direction of this country…while calling themselves the ultimate patriots of it.

It is blatantly ironic.
[/quote]

Great post, precisely what I was going to bring up.

The American flag is stained by slavery, yes. But it is also steeped in the best of our history: the architects of the Constitution and later of the 13th Amendment, the men who died at Normandy in June of 1944, and four thousand who died in Iraq in the last decade.

By contrast, the Confederate flag stands for a short list of reprehensible iniquities and vices. I do understand, Sloth, that the South is full of good people who feel a visceral and essentially harmless emotional attachment to it. But a spade is a spade, and an enemy flag which symbolizes first and foremost institutionalized racism and human chattel will not be called anything else by me.

To draw an imperfect but worthwhile analogy, the German flag stands for Germany–its past, its present, and its future–but the Swastika stands simply for Nazism. That’s why the former is an acceptable porch ornament and the latter is not.

45

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.[/quote]

Pride in roots.
[/quote]

I’d call it doublethink or, more simply, stupidity.[/quote]

That’s a rather prejudiced view. I too have grown up in the south. It’s been my experience that human beings are very much capable of taking pride in their ancestors while understanding times have changed. I realize stereotyping such individuals is popular, they being one of the few classes of people left we can stereotype freely (even encouraged to), but come on. Hell, before there was a confederate flag there was the stars and stripes flying over the American slave trade. Yet, black folks today salute it proudly.
[/quote]

Big difference. The stars and stripes represent the direction this entire country took…not just how it related to slavery. “Black folks” had no choice but to accept the culture of the country they were now in or it would make them traitors.

It should surprise no one that some feel unsettled around those now flying a flag contrary to the direction of this country…while calling themselves the ultimate patriots of it.

It is blatantly ironic.
[/quote]

The observation should be that southerners are highly patriotic, not that they believe northerners can’t be patriotic. The idea that they see themselves, southerners, as the ultimate patriots seems stereotypical. They just see themselves as patriots, who also happen to love a particular type of place and culture (big trucks, parties in the woods/swamp) despite being made out to be ‘rednecks.’ The food, the sport (fishing, hunting, rodeo, and yes, NASCAR), the country girls, and country/southern women. Remember black history month? Well, other people’s roots and symbols are important to them, too. There’s plenty of confederate flag flying down here in my part of southern Florida, yet I’d guarantee that the minorities around here aren’t feeling their most ‘unsettled’ in such neighborhoods.

And part of it can probably blamed on northern attitudes toward southern folks. I suppose getting called hick, backwoods, redneck, and so on enough…well, you sort of turn it around on them by deliberately accentuating certain things. The confederate flag, the big jacked up trucks, etc.

There is also a different direction for those who honor their confederate dead, their culture, their dialect and accents, their way of life, and even symbols, despite the stereotypes about them. The vast majority accept that this is also their republic now, and that the war is long over. So, they invest a great deal of pride in the US. They go to school, work, and play with minorities. I went to a ‘redneck high school.’ Didn’t stop the ‘rednecks’ and blacks from partying together. It’s funny down here…Those great big jacked up trucks with the confederate rear window sticker driving by my house, while playing their music too damn loud? If they aren’t blaring country music, it’s rap.

46

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Big difference. The stars and stripes represent the direction this entire country took…not just how it related to slavery. “Black folks” had no choice but to accept the culture of the country they were now in or it would make them traitors.

It should surprise no one that some feel unsettled around those now flying a flag contrary to the direction of this country…while calling themselves the ultimate patriots of it.

It is blatantly ironic.
[/quote]

Great post, precisely what I was going to bring up.

The American flag is stained by slavery, yes. But it is also steeped in the best of our history: the architects of the Constitution and later of the 13th Amendment, the men who died at Normandy in June of 1944, and four thousand who died in Iraq in the last decade.

By contrast, the Confederate flag stands for a short list of reprehensible iniquities and vices. I do understand, Sloth, that the South is full of good people who feel a visceral and essentially harmless emotional attachment to it. But a spade is a spade, and an enemy flag which symbolizes first and foremost institutionalized racism and human chattel will not be called anything else by me.

To draw an imperfect but worthwhile analogy, the German flag stands for Germany–its past, its present, and its future–but the Swastika stands simply for Nazism. That’s why the former is an acceptable porch ornament and the latter is not.[/quote]

And men who served in WWII and Iraq flew the Confederate flag before and after their service (if they survived). You can continue to view it as an enemy flag if you’d like, I personally have never owned, flew, or displayed the rebel flag, so I don’t have a personal attachment to topic. But just because you can’t move on and change, doesn’t mean they can’t move on while honoring their symbols, culture, and ancestors. They’re obviously keeping on with keeping own, despite how they’re looked upon by either of us.

47

[quote]Sloth wrote:

And men who served in WWII and Iraq flew the Confederate flag before and after their service (if they survived). You can continue to view it as an enemy flag if you’d like, I personally have never owned, flew, or displayed the rebel flag, so I don’t have a personal attachment to topic. But just because you can’t move on and change, doesn’t mean they can’t move on while honoring their symbols, culture, and ancestors. They’re obviously keeping on with keeping own, despite how they’re looked upon by either of us. [/quote]

I don’t hate or dislike anyone for it, and I certainly don’t dispute anyone’s right to fly the rebel flag on non-government property–a right which, when exercised, does not by any means prove its exerciser to be racist or a bigoted hick. Hell, Lynyrd Skynyrd sang about racism and gun control with the flag as a backdrop on stage (though the only surviving memeber recently said that racists ruined the flag for Southern Rock). Also, for the record, half of my family is scattered across Tennessee and Texas, and I’m certainly aware that many yankee stereotypes of Southerners are simplistic and idiotic.

At the same time, the Confederate flag was born in a time of truly shameful fratricide and its midwives’ hands were stained with the blood of slaves–American blood. This is the “culture” in which it’s steeped. In my opinion, that can’t change, in much the same way that the hood of the clansman would be an inappropriate and distasteful uniform for any member of any organization or group or cause–however noble–as long as our historical memory persists.

48

[quote]smh23 wrote:

At the same time, the Confederate flag was born in a time of truly shameful fratricide and its midwives’ hands were stained with the blood of slaves–American blood.[/quote]

Both flags were born during a time of slavery. And both sides killed the other. Part of the reason it is still displayed, alongside the US flag more often than not, is to honor ancestors killed (by blood or cultural transmission), both soldier and civilian.

It was the American flag that flew when Native Americans were slaughtered and/or displaced. And, just because the Union won and slaves were emancipated (not an original goal of the war), civil rights and tolerant integration weren’t exactly realized even in the north until fairly fairly recently. Now, there’s no Confederacy, as a State, to know what direction it may have eventually gone also, but there is a historical regional culture that continues on.

49

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Now, there’s no Confederacy, as a State, to know what direction it may have eventually gone also
[/quote]

No, but I’d bet it wouldn’t be one to be proud of.

Anyways, terrible things have been done under the American flag, but so have great things. The Confederate flag, by contrast, was born and died SPECIFICALLY FOR a narrow and reprehensible cause.

And it is an enemy flag. The flag of an enemy who tried to destroy the United States of America by rending it in two because it feared that membership in the Union might jeopardize its ability to continue owning black people. It stood against everything that we value in this country today–including the damn country itself–and that’s why a patriot doesn’t show it respect.

Incidentally, and this is also my opinion, the only thought that should be given to the rebels by their progeny–a group of which I’m a part–is a passing disgust and a minor pang of shame.

50

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Now, there’s no Confederacy, as a State, to know what direction it may have eventually gone also
[/quote]

No, but I’d bet it wouldn’t be one to be proud of.

Anyways, terrible things have been done under the American flag, but so have great things. The Confederate flag, by contrast, was born and died SPECIFICALLY FOR a narrow and reprehensible cause.

And it is an enemy flag. The flag of an enemy who tried to destroy the United States of America by rending it in two because it feared that membership in the Union might jeopardize its ability to continue owning black people. It stood against everything that we value in this country today–including the damn country itself–and that’s why a patriot doesn’t show it respect.

Incidentally, and this is also my opinion, the only thought that should be given to the rebels by their progeny–a group of which I’m a part–is a passing disgust and a minor pang of shame.[/quote]

Now that’s a vindictive attitude. Not a healthy thing. Sorry you feel that way about your ancestors. Must be similar to what some native peoples feel towards the US.

51

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I have a friend who is always talking about how the people are going to rise up in arms against the federal creep that you speak of. But I remind him that there are not nearly enough people who feel the way he does. Who is going to rise up? Not the 47 million people getting food stamps. Not those who are getting extended unemployment benefits. Not the 100 million dependent on the federal goverment in one form or another.

Let’s face it big government in one form or another is here to stay. And anyone tries to take it away THEN there will be a revolt. My friend has it completely backwards. [/quote]

But it’s more complicated than that. Even the folks who aren’t recipients of federal largesse don’t want to dismantle the federal government down to the kind of skeleton the neo-secessionists (for lack of a better label) want. It’s not as though the “other 53%” want to do away with most federal cabinets and abolish Social Security.

The problem the neo-secessionists have is not with the so-called 47%, but with the 53%, who is not on their side.

52

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Incidentally, and this is also my opinion, the only thought that should be given to the rebels by their progeny–a group of which I’m a part–is a passing disgust and a minor pang of shame.[/quote]

I share Sloth’s view on this statement, largely because it is simply too reductionist about the nature of the South and the Civil War.

The South had the stain of slavery, but that didn’t solely define the South ante- or post-bellum, any more the existence of slavery in England, for example, defined England. The slavery question was complicated, and one that the South and the United States inherited, not invented. The South - well, more specifically, the Slave Power - got it dead wrong on slavery and the justification to preserve it, and brought the tragedy of war to settle the question. But, again, that doesn’t define the South any more than any other place that recognized slavery.

There’s plenty to be proud of in connection with being Southern, including its deep and complicated history. Understanding and acknowledging? Yes. Shame? None.

53

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Incidentally, and this is also my opinion, the only thought that should be given to the rebels by their progeny–a group of which I’m a part–is a passing disgust and a minor pang of shame.[/quote]

I share Sloth’s view on this statement, largely because it is simply too reductionist about the nature of the South and the Civil War.

The South had the stain of slavery, but that didn’t solely define the South ante- or post-bellum, any more the existence of slavery in England, for example, defined England. The slavery question was complicated, and one that the South and the United States inherited, not invented. The South - well, more specifically, the Slave Power - got it dead wrong on slavery and the justification to preserve it, and brought the tragedy of war to settle the question. But, again, that doesn’t define the South any more than any other place that recognized slavery.

There’s plenty to be proud of in connection with being Southern, including its deep and complicated history. Understanding and acknowledging? Yes. Shame? None.[/quote]

And I’ll follow this thoughtful post up with this question–do you really think these good ol’ boys mean any harm? Case closed.

54

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
But, again, that doesn’t define the South any more than any other place that recognized slavery.

There’s plenty to be proud of in connection with being Southern, including its deep and complicated history. Understanding and acknowledging? Yes. Shame? None.[/quote]

I agree. I have no qualm with much of Southern culture–indeed I am in many ways a product of it.

It’s my opinion, however, that the Confederate flag is ill-conceived as a symbol of Southern culture, because it was born under the narrow circumstances of a war waged in an effort to, as I said before, be allowed to continue to own black people (a war waged against the United States, by the way). That is what it was created for and it was in explicit service to this enemy cause that it flew during the entirety of its official existence. In this way it is not analogous to Old Glory, or the German flag, or the Union Jack, or the Portuguese flag, despite the fact that atrocities have indeed been committed under each of them.

The national flag of Germany during World War II (which features a Swastika), on the other hand, does serve as a fairly useful analog: a banner conceived and flown only by villains and only during the not-sufficiently-short time that those villains held power.

And yes, I am fully aware that many a rebel flag adorns the porch of many a good family.

55

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Incidentally, and this is also my opinion, the only thought that should be given to the rebels by their progeny–a group of which I’m a part–is a passing disgust and a minor pang of shame.[/quote]

I share Sloth’s view on this statement, largely because it is simply too reductionist about the nature of the South and the Civil War.

The South had the stain of slavery, but that didn’t solely define the South ante- or post-bellum, any more the existence of slavery in England, for example, defined England. The slavery question was complicated, and one that the South and the United States inherited, not invented. The South - well, more specifically, the Slave Power - got it dead wrong on slavery and the justification to preserve it, and brought the tragedy of war to settle the question. But, again, that doesn’t define the South any more than any other place that recognized slavery.

There’s plenty to be proud of in connection with being Southern, including its deep and complicated history. Understanding and acknowledging? Yes. Shame? None.[/quote]

And I’ll follow this thoughtful post up with this question–do you really think these good ol’ boys mean any harm? Case closed.[/quote]
…you’re kidding right?

56

No, no, nevermind.

I don’t want to trap you

There is nothing in that picture that means to me that they would mean no harm. Is it the smile that’s supposed to do the trick? Or what?

But I think you’re not joking - and I think I get you. You can’t look at the picture and automatically deduce that they do mean harm - so you say case closed. Alright, nevermind - maybe I would have trapped myself

:frowning:

57

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I have a friend who is always talking about how the people are going to rise up in arms against the federal creep that you speak of. But I remind him that there are not nearly enough people who feel the way he does. Who is going to rise up? Not the 47 million people getting food stamps. Not those who are getting extended unemployment benefits. Not the 100 million dependent on the federal goverment in one form or another.

Let’s face it big government in one form or another is here to stay. And anyone tries to take it away THEN there will be a revolt. My friend has it completely backwards. [/quote]

But it’s more complicated than that. Even the folks who aren’t recipients of federal largesse don’t want to dismantle the federal government down to the kind of skeleton the neo-secessionists (for lack of a better label) want. It’s not as though the “other 53%” want to do away with most federal cabinets and abolish Social Security.

The problem the neo-secessionists have is not with the so-called 47%, but with the 53%, who is not on their side.[/quote]

Very true the overwhelming majority of people don’t want to see two America’s. But this is a good way for those who can’t handle obama winning to blow off some steam until it settles in. At least that’s the way I look at it. And I think it’s actually healthy. No one gets hurt and people get to rant and rave about how bad Obama is (and he is).

58

[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< maybe I would have trapped myself

:([/quote]Maybe you think too much sometimes LOL!!!

59

Would America go to war with Texas over its oil?

60

[quote]squating_bear wrote:
No, no, nevermind.

I don’t want to trap you

There is nothing in that picture that means to me that they would mean no harm. Is it the smile that’s supposed to do the trick? Or what?

But I think you’re not joking - and I think I get you. You can’t look at the picture and automatically deduce that they do mean harm - so you say case closed. Alright, nevermind - maybe I would have trapped myself

:([/quote]