Yes I agree we have in fact shown macro-evolution “right before our own eyes.” My point was that even if we hadn’t, these creationists/ID lovers would still be making an invalid argument because we don’t need to witness a process within a finite human lifespan in order to prove it to be true.
I don’t see why you’d criticize my post; in fact I provided an even more widespread refutation of their objections.
Damn, Im late. And with all the great resposes from the thinkers and this not being my field of expertise (that would be pasta-ball, a mythical sport conceived during long evenings contemplating the existance of god and the role of pasta in sport).
Now for my approval yell.
YOU FUCKING CREATIONIST MOTHERFUCKERS NEED TO FUCKING STOP RUINING EVERY DAMN SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT OR DISCUSSION ON THIS SITE WITH YOUR SELF-PRESERVING RHETORIC! YOUR FUCKING INSECURITIES NEED TO BE FUELED ELSEWHERE YOU LONELY ASSHOLES GO DIE!
I HATE YOU ALL YOU RELIGOUS FUCKS! STOP BRINGING YOUR PERSONAL BELEIFS IN FAIRIES/GOBLINS/GODS AND SUGAR-FREE CHEESECAKE THAT TASTES LIKE THE ORIGINAL ONTO THIS FORUM YOU SWINES!
Amir
[quote]AMIRisSQUAT wrote:
Damn, Im late. And with all the great resposes from the thinkers and this not being my field of expertise (that would be pasta-ball, a mythical sport conceived during long evenings contemplating the existance of god and the role of pasta in sport).
Now for my approval yell.
YOU FUCKING CREATIONIST MOTHERFUCKERS NEED TO FUCKING STOP RUINING EVERY DAMN SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT OR DISCUSSION ON THIS SITE WITH YOUR SELF-PRESERVING RHETORIC! YOUR FUCKING INSECURITIES NEED TO BE FUELED ELSEWHERE YOU LONELY ASSHOLES GO DIE!
I HATE YOU ALL YOU RELIGOUS FUCKS! STOP BRINGING YOUR PERSONAL BELEIFS IN FAIRIES/GOBLINS/GODS AND SUGAR-FREE CHEESECAKE THAT TASTES LIKE THE ORIGINAL ONTO THIS FORUM YOU SWINES!
Amir[/quote]
You know, normally I like to get in these conversations because it sharpens my critical thinking skills and prompts me to further research. However dealing with guys like this is hardly worth the effort. I appreciate the knowledge that some have put forth in this thread. Certainly we have some studied and educated people on these forums. I am not convinced that adaptational changes and mutations demonstrate evolution, but I am just an imbecile. As far as conforming to Amir’s request to die, well, that is in God’s hands…
I think AMIRisSQUAT had too many pastaballs and has a severe case of indigestion. 
Bicarbonate of soda might help, my friend.
" I am not convinced that adaptational changes and mutations demonstrate evolution, but I am just an imbecile"
If any well educated evolutionary scientist can’t see the possibility of the above statement, just the possibility, they’re blinded and see only what they want to see. That being said there’s ignorant and mentally rigid individuals on both sides.
[quote]knuckles wrote:
Or, in other words, there are less elephants with tusks.
Allele…jesus. [/quote]
Hey if I used the term incorrectly let me know. But I wanted to make sure that it was clear that genectic information in DNA and the specifc set of codons the generate a charecteristic (allele) dont just disappear.
Allele…Darwin.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
" I am not convinced that adaptational changes and mutations demonstrate evolution, but I am just an imbecile"
If any well educated evolutionary scientist can’t see the possibility of the above statement, just the possibility, they’re blinded and see only what they want to see. That being said there’s ignorant and mentally rigid individuals on both sides.[/quote]
The problem with the statement above is that no one is saying Adaptations in one organism or mutation in THAT organism is proof.
Adaptation occurs when the body changes to deal with changes in the enviornment, no genetic change takes place.
Mutation is random. Say you have these wild buffalo like animals, most have long hair, but a mutation has occured and some are born with short hair. Now the ones with long hair dominate the herds numbers. The short hairs are kinda suseptable to the cold climate so they are not as plentiful.
Enter climate change warming the place up and the long hairs start dying off. The short hairs now predominate. I think its called genetic drift…there is a term for it I forgot it. Genetics is not my thing.
You are not an imbecile Behe is, you are not. Your just in my humble opinion misusing or misunderstanding some othe concepts involved. Or I am…either way we have to agree on the terms.
Adaptation
Mutation
Evolution
Natural Selection
That last one is survival of the fitest by natural selection. And by fitness Darwin means “able to survive to reproduce”.
Hmmm… I would say that adaptational changes in a species, NOT in an individual, is the definition of evolution. In the general (non-biological) sense, evolution is defined as:
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
This can be used to describe your increasing poundages in the deadlift, the improvement you show in your basketball game after training with your team for a year, or how your house looks after you’ve spent 2 months renovating it.
In the biological sense, if a species is adapting to a new environment by way of permanent, biological changes, then that is evolution. These changes must come about through mutations in the DNA.
If you were using “adaptational changes” to mean something different, then please explain it to me.
[quote]AMIRisSQUAT wrote:
Damn, Im late. And with all the great resposes from the thinkers and this not being my field of expertise (that would be pasta-ball, a mythical sport conceived during long evenings contemplating the existance of god and the role of pasta in sport).
Now for my approval yell.
YOU FUCKING CREATIONIST MOTHERFUCKERS NEED TO FUCKING STOP RUINING EVERY DAMN SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT OR DISCUSSION ON THIS SITE WITH YOUR SELF-PRESERVING RHETORIC! YOUR FUCKING INSECURITIES NEED TO BE FUELED ELSEWHERE YOU LONELY ASSHOLES GO DIE!
I HATE YOU ALL YOU RELIGOUS FUCKS! STOP BRINGING YOUR PERSONAL BELEIFS IN FAIRIES/GOBLINS/GODS AND SUGAR-FREE CHEESECAKE THAT TASTES LIKE THE ORIGINAL ONTO THIS FORUM YOU SWINES!
Amir[/quote]
***orion, sobbing *** there is no sugar free cheesecake that tastes like the original? Nooooooooooooo…
Missing fossils? In another thread, I posted the volume of the earths crust that scientists have to search through. I believe it was half a million cubic miles or so (I’ll try to find it again). The point is, that’s a lot to look through. SO don’t be surprised if we haven’t found every possible fossil.
Computer simulations have shown that complexity can arise form randomness. Search for Avida on the net for a evolutionary simulation.
As for Behe’s claim of irreducible complexity, he’s wrong. The blood clotting proteins he talks about? Organisms can get by with less than what he says, he simply does not understand enough. Besides true intelligence begets simplicity, not ridiculous complexity. Look at a hunk of iron ore, and a ball bearing. Which is simpler? Which is the product of intelligent design?
Also, in reference to some of the “experts” that are for ID; check when or where they got their degrees. I know of one for sure got his degree after he decided ID was true in order to lend his statements more authority.
One more. Some fruit maggots in N. America have been observed to have the characteristics of two different but related fruit maggots. This third species had not been seen before.
Sounds like evolution.
[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
One more. Some fruit maggots in N. America have been observed to have the characteristics of two different but related fruit maggots. This third species had not been seen before.
Sounds like evolution.[/quote]
Just on that one point, that could easily be argued that it is simply a species we had not seen before, not “evolution” of a species. There are estimated to be many species and organsisms that have never been documented before. Everytime we find a new one that has characteristics of one we already know does not mean we have found “evolution”. The majority of the planet is still unexplored and unknown from rain forests to underwater canyons.
[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
Missing fossils? In another thread, I posted the volume of the earths crust that scientists have to search through. I believe it was half a million cubic miles or so (I’ll try to find it again). The point is, that’s a lot to look through. SO don’t be surprised if we haven’t found every possible fossil.
Computer simulations have shown that complexity can arise form randomness. Search for Avida on the net for a evolutionary simulation.
As for Behe’s claim of irreducible complexity, he’s wrong. The blood clotting proteins he talks about? Organisms can get by with less than what he says, he simply does not understand enough. Besides true intelligence begets simplicity, not ridiculous complexity. Look at a hunk of iron ore, and a ball bearing. Which is simpler? Which is the product of intelligent design?
Also, in reference to some of the “experts” that are for ID; check when or where they got their degrees. I know of one for sure got his degree after he decided ID was true in order to lend his statements more authority.
One more. Some fruit maggots in N. America have been observed to have the characteristics of two different but related fruit maggots. This third species had not been seen before.
Sounds like evolution.[/quote]
My perosnal problem with ID is that if there is a designer I’ve got a few things I want to ask him/her/it about.
If ID is true then is the entity that did the designing all knowing and all powerful? If not then ok he was limited with what could he do.
If he is all powerful…One of the things I’d like to ask him is what the fuck is up with childhood cancer? What the hell did those kids ever do to deserve that? Actually now that I am at it what about every other disease, infections parasite, degenrative disorder?
What the fuck?
[quote]Miserere wrote:
I am not convinced that adaptational changes and mutations demonstrate evolution
Hmmm… I would say that adaptational changes in a species, NOT in an individual, is the definition of evolution. In the general (non-biological) sense, evolution is defined as:
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
This can be used to describe your increasing poundages in the deadlift, the improvement you show in your basketball game after training with your team for a year, or how your house looks after you’ve spent 2 months renovating it.
In the biological sense, if a species is adapting to a new environment by way of permanent, biological changes, then that is evolution. These changes must come about through mutations in the DNA.
If you were using “adaptational changes” to mean something different, then please explain it to me. :-)[/quote]
The permanent biological changes would be evolution if they resulted in a more complex organism. Adaptation need not fit this criteria.
An example I have seen is the original wolf/dog. It probably had genetic information for a wide variety of fur lengths. If simplified, you could say that the dogs carry a short fur gene (s) and a long fur gene (l). If these dogs breed the offspring would result in three possibilities, short (ss), medium (ls), or long (ll) fur. If an external influence such as an ice age occurs, only those with the (ll) type fur would be likely to survive. So adaptation to the enviroment has occured. As opposed to new genes being added, they would actually have been lost. This is opposite of what needs to happen for evolution to occur. Another result would be that future adaptation to a hotter environment could not occur, possibly resulting in extinction.
That is my understanding of adaptation vs. evolution.
[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
…
My perosnal problem with ID is that if there is a designer I’ve got a few things I want to ask him/her/it about.
If ID is true then is the entity that did the designing all knowing and all powerful? If not then ok he was limited with what could he do.
If he is all powerful…One of the things I’d like to ask him is what the fuck is up with childhood cancer? What the hell did those kids ever do to deserve that? Actually now that I am at it what about every other disease, infections parasite, degenrative disorder?
What the fuck? [/quote]
Deserve has nothing to do with it in life.
I prefer to think those poor kids have a special place in Heaven (if there is one). It makes it easier to get through the day.
[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
My perosnal problem with ID is that if there is a designer I’ve got a few things I want to ask him/her/it about.
If ID is true then is the entity that did the designing all knowing and all powerful? If not then ok he was limited with what could he do.
If he is all powerful…One of the things I’d like to ask him is what the fuck is up with childhood cancer? What the hell did those kids ever do to deserve that? Actually now that I am at it what about every other disease, infections parasite, degenrative disorder?
What the fuck? [/quote]
We live in a world based on balance. For pain, there is pleasure. Without pain, we wouldn’t even know the difference. That state of being was set into play at the very beginning when we were tested…and failed. You choose to not believe that. Fine, but don’t act as if it has not been explained. If you still don’t get it, ask.
[quote]Miserere wrote:
I am not convinced that adaptational changes and mutations demonstrate evolution
Hmmm… I would say that adaptational changes in a species, NOT in an individual, is the definition of evolution. In the general (non-biological) sense, evolution is defined as:
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
This can be used to describe your increasing poundages in the deadlift, the improvement you show in your basketball game after training with your team for a year, or how your house looks after you’ve spent 2 months renovating it.
In the biological sense, if a species is adapting to a new environment by way of permanent, biological changes, then that is evolution. These changes must come about through mutations in the DNA.
If you were using “adaptational changes” to mean something different, then please explain it to me. :-)[/quote]
You’re right it is and this is exactly what i was thinking. The level i’m referring to is species jumping. In where i practiced my jump for so long generation after generation that we could become Kangaroos? No we’ll still be human, humas that will be very good at jumping.
[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
Gregus wrote:
" I am not convinced that adaptational changes and mutations demonstrate evolution, but I am just an imbecile"
If any well educated evolutionary scientist can’t see the possibility of the above statement, just the possibility, they’re blinded and see only what they want to see. That being said there’s ignorant and mentally rigid individuals on both sides.
The problem with the statement above is that no one is saying Adaptations in one organism or mutation in THAT organism is proof.
Adaptation occurs when the body changes to deal with changes in the enviornment, no genetic change takes place.
Mutation is random. Say you have these wild buffalo like animals, most have long hair, but a mutation has occured and some are born with short hair. Now the ones with long hair dominate the herds numbers. The short hairs are kinda suseptable to the cold climate so they are not as plentiful.
Enter climate change warming the place up and the long hairs start dying off. The short hairs now predominate. I think its called genetic drift…there is a term for it I forgot it. Genetics is not my thing.
You are not an imbecile Behe is, you are not. Your just in my humble opinion misusing or misunderstanding some othe concepts involved. Or I am…either way we have to agree on the terms.
Adaptation
Mutation
Evolution
Natural Selection
That last one is survival of the fitest by natural selection. And by fitness Darwin means “able to survive to reproduce”.
[/quote]
We’re on the same page on this one.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Jersey5150 wrote:
My perosnal problem with ID is that if there is a designer I’ve got a few things I want to ask him/her/it about.
If ID is true then is the entity that did the designing all knowing and all powerful? If not then ok he was limited with what could he do.
If he is all powerful…One of the things I’d like to ask him is what the fuck is up with childhood cancer? What the hell did those kids ever do to deserve that? Actually now that I am at it what about every other disease, infections parasite, degenrative disorder?
What the fuck?
We live in a world based on balance. For pain, there is pleasure. Without pain, we wouldn’t even know the difference. That state of being was set into play at the very beginning when we were tested…and failed. You choose to not believe that. Fine, but don’t act as if it has not been explained. If you still don’t get it, ask.[/quote]
I should have been clear I dont mean God. I mean an “Intelligent Designer”. Your faith is fine with me if I remember it right they told us in catholic school that this is the “mystery of faith” and you will not be provided evidence you need to have faith.
What I am talking about is looking at evidence in nature to argue for intelligent design.
[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
Hey if I used the term incorrectly let me know. But I wanted to make sure that it was clear that genectic information in DNA and the specifc set of codons the generate a charecteristic (allele) dont just disappear.
Allele…Darwin.
[/quote]
Well, you didn’t exactly use it incorrectly. I just thought it was self-evident that the gene that causes this trait has become less frequent because the trait has become less frequent.
[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Jersey5150 wrote:
My perosnal problem with ID is that if there is a designer I’ve got a few things I want to ask him/her/it about.
If ID is true then is the entity that did the designing all knowing and all powerful? If not then ok he was limited with what could he do.
If he is all powerful…One of the things I’d like to ask him is what the fuck is up with childhood cancer? What the hell did those kids ever do to deserve that? Actually now that I am at it what about every other disease, infections parasite, degenrative disorder?
What the fuck?
We live in a world based on balance. For pain, there is pleasure. Without pain, we wouldn’t even know the difference. That state of being was set into play at the very beginning when we were tested…and failed. You choose to not believe that. Fine, but don’t act as if it has not been explained. If you still don’t get it, ask.
I should have been clear I dont mean God. I mean an “Intelligent Designer”. Your faith is fine with me if I remember it right they told us in catholic school that this is the “mystery of faith” and you will not be provided evidence you need to have faith.
What I am talking about is looking at evidence in nature to argue for intelligent design. [/quote]
For those who believe in God and have an understanding of science, micro-evolution is not unheard of. We are adaptive. That in itself, to me, implies life with a purpose. We don’t have anything on this planet that can create life out of none life. Nothing non-living will start living out of nothing. To create life that not only has the desire to live but the ability to improve is pretty fantastic and within my understand of what God is.