Evasive Skills

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Kinda reminds me of Kelly McCann’s “fending.” Very realistic type of defense, although it may not work so well in a ring.[/quote]

i agree 100% that this really isn’t practical for in the ring.

but incorperating into in your body’s ‘flinch mechanism’ in a self defense situation, especially one where you are confined, could give you a leg up[/quote]

Actually guys it’ll still work fairly well in the ring (think Ali vs Foreman for an example of someone using more durable parts of their body to absorb their opponent’s punches). If the opponent has boxing gloves on it won’t be as effective as if they are bare fisted or have MMA gloves on (in which case the opponent may very likely break their hands on impact if they are really punching hard), but it’ll still effectively absorb the strikes.

Like I said, it doesn’t look as refined or comprehensive as the “shield” (which I have used many times effectively while sparring), but I suspect it would still work well.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Like I said, it doesn’t look as refined or comprehensive as the “shield” (which I have used many times effectively while sparring), but I suspect it would still work well. [/quote]

i think for someone of my size with my proportions, it fits really well.

i have become particularly fond of going for a single or double leg takedown, being brought into the opponents guard, getting my base set, and then unloading some of those combinations. i think striking at the head and then bringing your elbow down to his torso is a very effective move.

the drawback is that it requires a significant amount of energy. if it were later in a fight i doubt it would have the same effectiveness.

Improve your reflexes! Tho this can be done by practicing all the things already mentioned, but I thought I’d mention reflexes because they have a lot to do with your ability to slip and parry punches effectively.

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Like I said, it doesn’t look as refined or comprehensive as the “shield” (which I have used many times effectively while sparring), but I suspect it would still work well. [/quote]

i think for someone of my size with my proportions, it fits really well.

i have become particularly fond of going for a single or double leg takedown, being brought into the opponents guard, getting my base set, and then unloading some of those combinations. i think striking at the head and then bringing your elbow down to his torso is a very effective move.

the drawback is that it requires a significant amount of energy. if it were later in a fight i doubt it would have the same effectiveness.[/quote]

The only problem that I see with that is that your opponent would have to be doing that paragona (or whatever they call it) defense for it to work as effectively as in that video. If their arms were tighter it wouldn’t work as well (though the elbows to the body would probably still be effective). Not to mention if they were controlling your arms/head/or posture like they should be. But still an interesting little combo.

#1 goldengloves has it spot on

Spar SLOWLY with a partner, first situationally, then free sparring… any style can do this , boxing, muay thai, taekwondo etc. Then gradually build up speed.

I harp on it alot, but shadowboxing for hours has imparted much improved defensive skills.

As for infighting, its not neccessarily evasive but I really like alot of Rodney Kings Crazy Monkey defense. Very simple, great for street fighting type altercations and ammie boxing. In a brawl i can garuntee your attacker will break their hands…sets you up for takedowns/ etc

In olympic taekwondo, our success is measured by our footwork and top level guys ive sparred with, some national team guys and whatnot have amazing footwork, distancing and evasion. WKF style karate is also pretty similar in that regard (what machida competed in).

A good defense IS a good offense.

I agree with Rich’s post.

And if we’re moving away from talking about sport and more about street shit, then the best defense is unbridled, brutal, urgent offense. Even the best evasive skills or fending/shield/etc. suck when the dude’s got a knife instead of a pad.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree with Rich’s post.

And if we’re moving away from talking about sport and more about street shit, then the best defense is unbridled, brutal, urgent offense. Even the best evasive skills or fending/shield/etc. suck when the dude’s got a knife instead of a pad. [/quote]

True. In the case of him having a weapon like a knife though, you are legally and morally justified in using lethal force; so you can pretty much throw caution to the wind and really unleash on the attacker. Even in that situation though, things like shielding and evasive footwork can be of the utmost importance as you either want to stay completely out of range, or if you do wind up close you still want to be able to take the stab/slash on a non lethal target while simultaneously delivering attacks to the opponent’s vital targets.

In the case of an unarmed assailant though, you aren’t really in position to just go for broke and unleash a ruthless, explosive, unrelenting assault on them. Tactically it’s the best option, but again, legally and morally it isn’t justified. You basically have to wait until they throw the first punch if you want to be sure that you can plead “self defense” later in court. And because of that, things like shielding/paragon/crazy monkey/etc… are very useful tools to develop.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree with Rich’s post.

And if we’re moving away from talking about sport and more about street shit, then the best defense is unbridled, brutal, urgent offense. Even the best evasive skills or fending/shield/etc. suck when the dude’s got a knife instead of a pad. [/quote]

True. In the case of him having a weapon like a knife though, you are legally and morally justified in using lethal force; so you can pretty much throw caution to the wind and really unleash on the attacker. Even in that situation though, things like shielding and evasive footwork can be of the utmost importance as you either want to stay completely out of range, or if you do wind up close you still want to be able to take the stab/slash on a non lethal target while simultaneously delivering attacks to the opponent’s vital targets.

In the case of an unarmed assailant though, you aren’t really in position to just go for broke and unleash a ruthless, explosive, unrelenting assault on them. Tactically it’s the best option, but again, legally and morally it isn’t justified. You basically have to wait until they throw the first punch if you want to be sure that you can plead “self defense” later in court. And because of that, things like shielding/paragon/crazy monkey/etc… are very useful tools to develop.[/quote]

Oh yea. I’m just saying that you gotta make one “evasive move” then take the initiative and attack ruthlessly. Even in an unarmed assailant, once they come at you you can put them on the ground immediately.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree with Rich’s post.

And if we’re moving away from talking about sport and more about street shit, then the best defense is unbridled, brutal, urgent offense. Even the best evasive skills or fending/shield/etc. suck when the dude’s got a knife instead of a pad. [/quote]

True. In the case of him having a weapon like a knife though, you are legally and morally justified in using lethal force; so you can pretty much throw caution to the wind and really unleash on the attacker. Even in that situation though, things like shielding and evasive footwork can be of the utmost importance as you either want to stay completely out of range, or if you do wind up close you still want to be able to take the stab/slash on a non lethal target while simultaneously delivering attacks to the opponent’s vital targets.

In the case of an unarmed assailant though, you aren’t really in position to just go for broke and unleash a ruthless, explosive, unrelenting assault on them. Tactically it’s the best option, but again, legally and morally it isn’t justified. You basically have to wait until they throw the first punch if you want to be sure that you can plead “self defense” later in court. And because of that, things like shielding/paragon/crazy monkey/etc… are very useful tools to develop.[/quote]

Oh yea. I’m just saying that you gotta make one “evasive move” then take the initiative and attack ruthlessly. Even in an unarmed assailant, once they come at you you can put them on the ground immediately.[/quote]

True.

When fighting with knives… and other instruments, footwork, angles and having good sense of distance is all the more crucial.

Ive worked on some knife defense techniques, and the most common attack is not the overhand easily dealt with stab, but an underhand shank that you rarely see as the guy is not going to wave his knife in your face. Hes gonna pull it out from his belt/pocket etc and stab when you are in close. For example, with the underhand shank, step to the inside the arm can still come in and stab you. You need a quick switch step or angle to the outside that still puts you closer to the attacker. This way his stabbing momentum is going the other way, you can pin the arm, disable the person, or simply just disable them. All this happens in an instant.

[quote]666Rich wrote:
When fighting with knives… and other instruments, footwork, angles and having good sense of distance is all the more crucial.
[/quote]

Yes, those are crucial skills indeed, in the right context. The thing is though that you have to take into consideration that most fights begin from a “conversational range”, meaning that they are already close enough to successfully attack you. It’s not like sport MMA where you start 20 feet from each other and then gradually work your way in.

You also have to take into consideration realistic environments. Are you going to be able to angle off if attacked in a phone booth? How about if you’re sitting in your car and somebody attacks you? Footwork isn’t going to do you much good in those situations, so you’ve gotta have other systems of defense in place as well as just footwork.

There is also the problem of distance/reaction time. At that close distance, you are not going to be able to see the exact angle of attack and move your entire body out of line to avoid it using footwork and be able to make the attacker miss (definitely not anyone with anything resembling hand speed or the real intent to get to you with the knife). It would be nice if we could train to become like Spiderman or some other superhuman blessed with ridiculous reaction time, but it’s just not realistic.

Also keep in mind that knives are “touch weapons”, meaning that all the knife has to do is to touch you with the blade to do damage. They aren’t like “impact weapons” where the force must have bodyweight, and structure behind it, and must follow a distinct path to the target in order to do damage. If you guess wrong, or they change the angle of their attack mid attack, and you don’t have some form of less vulnerable/lethal obstruction to take the attack, then you could wind up in serious trouble.

[quote]
Ive worked on some knife defense techniques, and the most common attack is not the overhand easily dealt with stab, but an underhand shank that you rarely see as the guy is not going to wave his knife in your face. Hes gonna pull it out from his belt/pocket etc and stab when you are in close. For example, with the underhand shank, step to the inside the arm can still come in and stab you. You need a quick switch step or angle to the outside that still puts you closer to the attacker. This way his stabbing momentum is going the other way, you can pin the arm, disable the person, or simply just disable them. All this happens in an instant.[/quote]

Practicing for the most common types of attacks can be helpful. But assuming that you can predict how a person is going to attack you is a bad idea. Murphy’s law will not be kind to you if you do.

The truth is that you really have no idea how someone will attack you with a knife in a real situation and if you become “internally focused”, meaning that you are paying attention to what you “think” he is going to do rather than what he is actually doing, then you’d better hope that you are a very lucky individual and just happen to guess right.

That technique sounds like a little too “precision” (meaning that there is very little margin for error and the attacker would have to do pretty much that exact attack for it to work) of a defense for my liking. You’d better be “shielding” at the same time you are moving in case you guess wrong or they change angles mid attack if you try that for real.

But hey, maybe you can make it work, and if so then go for it. I’d just suggest actually “pressure testing” it before assuming that it will save your life. Have you and your partner strap on some protective gear, give him/her a magic marker/actionflex knife/rubber knife and tell them that at any point they can attack you (and can continue attacking you until you stop them) and see if you can pull it off without taking a hit on a lethal target from the knife. Start off with just that attack (the underhand stab), then gradually add in more lines of attack as you get better. Eventually tell him/her that they can attack you from any angle. If at the end of that experiment you still feel like you could successfully pull that off against a fully resisting unpredictable attacker, then it’s a keeper. If you can’t, might want to reconsider either scrapping it completely, or modifying it so it does work.

Also, if you’re going to “wrap” the arm, make absolutely certain that you do it above the elbow, otherwise they can potentially pull their arm out and possibly cut you in the process. I know of an instance of someone actually dying due to wrapping an attacker’s arm too low and in the process of the attacker pulling their knife arm free, the individual’s brachial artery was severed and they bled to death.

Hey Sento- your comments made me think of this video. I agree with you, and think most disarms that are taught as gospel are probably just enough to get you killed.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Hey Sento- your comments made me think of this video. I agree with you, and think most disarms that are taught as gospel are probably just enough to get you killed.

Cool video.

The thing is that under perfect conditions, some of the disarms might be able to be pulled off by someone who has excellent reflexes and has spent decades mastering them. The problems with this is that:

  1. you very rarely are going to encounter those perfect conditions, so really shouldn’t be basing your defenses around them being present

and

  1. very few people are going to meet the experience/attribute requirements to be able to pull off the techniques in real time

People also have unrealistic expectations concerning edged weapons combat (like expecting to not get cut or stabbed at all) which somewhat warp their perspective and cause them to train unrealistically.

Like I said before, give your partner a training knife (I personally like either action flex, or a magic marker) and have they really, truly try to take you out with it and you’ll find that most of the defenses that are taught are pretty unrealistic.

good stuff man. I agree most weapon defenses out there are pretty unrealistic, and its definatley something I want to train in more. Whats your background?

[quote]666Rich wrote:
good stuff man. I agree most weapon defenses out there are pretty unrealistic, and its definatley something I want to train in more. Whats your background?[/quote]

I’m a certified iCAT (Lysak’s Sento Method, Dynamic Combat Method) instructor. Been doing it since 2002. Before that I tried out Shorin Ryu Karate, Indonesian Kung Fu, and TKD but none of them were really what I was looking for (real world self defense/martial arts). Training with Walt/Charlie Lysak, Rich Ryan and Joe Lewis has totally changed the way I view combat and training in general. I’ve also been fortunate enough to get to train with Michael DePasquale Jr, Rodney Smith, Mike Allen (Joe Lewis Black belt) and Rick Alford (black belt under Prof Wally Jay). All of whom are excellent practitioners/coaches of their respective systems.

If you’re really serious about edged weapons combat, Rich Ryan has some phenomenal stuff and a very realistic approach to training.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

If you’re really serious about edged weapons combat, Rich Ryan has some phenomenal stuff and a very realistic approach to training. [/quote]

kind of getting off on a tangent here…but speaking of edged weapons, i’ve recently become a fan of ray dionaldo and the karambit

The Karambit looks like a pretty cool knife. The only issue I see with it is that it doesn’t look like it would be great for stabbing, pretty much just a cutting knife.

As long as we’re talking knives, here is Rich’s “talon” knife.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
while it’s certainly not an ‘end all’ approach, i think KFM has some interesting concepts that could definatly compliment stand up styles

@ 3:47 iz kewl[/quote]

Kinda reminds me of Kelly McCann’s “fending.” Very realistic type of defense, although it may not work so well in a ring.[/quote]

I think it would work in the ring if you were getting pummled, some one could wear themselves out trying to hurt you . I don’t think it would work well with feet or knees

Lol, coming back to this thread, the higher levels of competition in amateur boxing has really started to piss me off, as it becomes a game of tag. It’s retarded, early stages of amateurs, like your first few fights, are more of a slugfest.

As you stop being a novice, it starts to come down to more skilled boxing and who is more active, you start to pick your shots more, you find a strategy on the spot, etc.

Then, you reach the next level in amateurs, and suddenly it’s a game of tag. Boxers dance around each other, dive in, throw a jab or a few fast taps, and jump back out. I fucking hate it. Developing skills like rolling, slipping, weaving etc become far less important than having the ability to jump back and forth quickly.

Amateur boxing could really benefit from pro rules sometimes…

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
wtf.

no faith, assholes

while i have your attention, some of the concepts of KFM are being brought to ground fighting as well.

once again, not something i’d reccomend as the ‘go to’, but certianly something that could be a valuable addition

interesting, and in a streetfight this would probable work very well, however in mma, especially UFC style, not quite as well. The main reason, in mma fight most people wont leave their elbows exposed. If you are on the ground, your trying to stay as tight a possible, rolling around or pushing off, anything you can do.

Also if you are in a position where your in full guard, your not going to cover up like in the video (elbows exposed). You would want as little space between you and the opponent as possible, so they cant use any of those techniques or rain down punches on you. And if there is that much seperation, you might have to take a punch or two till you could grap and secure an arm, then you would only have to block one aarm plus the person is more likely to drop his head down closer, in which case, try to pull the head in.

Im no professional, but this is my opinion.