Eternal Vice Versa

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]jglickfield wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Read about the Manichean Heresy.[/quote]

I was thinking about that. In order to have these fears you have to actually believe that God and Satan are of equal power to oppose one another (as in dualism). In which case, I guess it wouldn’t matter who you align yourself with as either one of these deities could reward its servants equally.
[/quote]

This seems to make sense to me right now. If I chose Hell, its ruler would show favor to me rather than punishment, right?[/quote]

Unless your side loses the final war… [/quote]

How would that be possible? With all the versions of Christianity that evolved, there has to be more “wrong” worshipers that have been “damned” for deviance. Heaven would have a loss due to numbers, right?[/quote]

You’re assuming superior numbers = victory?

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]jglickfield wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Read about the Manichean Heresy.[/quote]

I was thinking about that. In order to have these fears you have to actually believe that God and Satan are of equal power to oppose one another (as in dualism). In which case, I guess it wouldn’t matter who you align yourself with as either one of these deities could reward its servants equally.
[/quote]

This seems to make sense to me right now. If I chose Hell, its ruler would show favor to me rather than punishment, right?[/quote]

Unless your side loses the final war… [/quote]

How would that be possible? With all the versions of Christianity that evolved, there has to be more “wrong” worshipers that have been “damned” for deviance. Heaven would have a loss due to numbers, right?[/quote]

You’re assuming superior numbers = victory?
[/quote]

yes, or else Heaven would have smashed Hell by now. If all the “horrible” people from history are in hell they’d have a better gameplan for destruction than heaven would, right?

Assuming god and the devil have near equal influence, yes, hell wins on numbers.

OP, have you read Paradise Lost?

[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:
OP, have you read Paradise Lost?[/quote]

I have not, but its been suggested a few times. I’ve put it on my list.

While of no serious philosophical or theological value, Niven and Pournelle’s version of Dante’s Inferno is a good read.

Just a couple of thoughts, unexamined, that come to me.
If you are willing to question Christianity to the point that you take Christ out of the picture and reduce it to a yin/yang, light/dark, duality of virtually equal strength and validity, ie. of equal powers of God vs. Satan and whether or not God is the actual deceiver, why not just ditch the whole thing? Why go through the trouble of trying to decipher a mystery that as presented is undecipherable?

After all, there is no shortage of established religions. Is there not one that meets your needs?

In a very simplistic way, I would say that the choice of a religion, or degree of adherence to one chosen for you, is to establish a moral or ethical “center of gravity.” Said another way, it is the foundation of a philosophy one chooses by which to govern their moral or ethical behavior.

Here is another thought to ponder. I would suggest the possibility that the more “mature” one’s sense of moral and ethical development becomes, the less one’s need for a rigid, fundamental, literally interpreted and applied form or sect of religion.

Here is where my line of thought might appear to take the form of a personal attack. I promise in advance that this is not my intention.

If one’s level of moral and ethical development is so “immature” as to need the structure and layout of a “Dungeons and Dragons” game, then you might truly need the guidance and mentoring of a more enlightened soul (or at least someone with psychiatric skills). Honestly, take a step back, put some distance between yourself and this scenario and give it a good objective going over.

There is also another possibility. You could simply be looking into this for the shock value it brings to the table. After all, think of the temporary “significance” you would gain in telling someone that you were a real life Satanist. If this is the case you are just trying on clothes and you are not likely to follow through to any real depth. Therefore, you would mostly be harmless to those around you.

Again, I don’t mean to insult you, but I do mean to make you think a little more deeply on this decision.

[quote]JEATON wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts, unexamined, that come to me.
If you are willing to question Christianity to the point that you take Christ out of the picture and reduce it to a yin/yang, light/dark, duality of virtually equal strength and validity, ie. of equal powers of God vs. Satan and whether or not God is the actual deceiver, why not just ditch the whole thing? Why go through the trouble of trying to decipher a mystery that as presented is undecipherable?

After all, there is no shortage of established religions. Is there not one that meets your needs?

In a very simplistic way, I would say that the choice of a religion, or degree of adherence to one chosen for you, is to establish a moral or ethical “center of gravity.” Said another way, it is the foundation of a philosophy one chooses by which to govern their moral or ethical behavior.

Here is another thought to ponder. I would suggest the possibility that the more “mature” one’s sense of moral and ethical development becomes, the less one’s need for a rigid, fundamental, literally interpreted and applied form or sect of religion.

Here is where my line of thought might appear to take the form of a personal attack. I promise in advance that this is not my intention.

If one’s level of moral and ethical development is so “immature” as to need the structure and layout of a “Dungeons and Dragons” game, then you might truly need the guidance and mentoring of a more enlightened soul (or at least someone with psychiatric skills). Honestly, take a step back, put some distance between yourself and this scenario and give it a good objective going over.

There is also another possibility. You could simply be looking into this for the shock value it brings to the table. After all, think of the temporary “significance” you would gain in telling someone that you were a real life Satanist. If this is the case you are just trying on clothes and you are not likely to follow through to any real depth. Therefore, you would mostly be harmless to those around you.

Again, I don’t mean to insult you, but I do mean to make you think a little more deeply on this decision. [/quote]

At the end of all this, I might just get rid of the whole idea of a religion.

I can say that my morality is sound in its foundation. There’s no problem there, just the need to question things, that’s all. Is it wrong to want to look over at the other side? The two practicing Satanists I know arent immoral people. I doubt I’d be immoral if I chose to join them. The same goes for the Christians I know. Typing that made me realize, it might not be worth it to label myself anything. It really has no bearing either way.

This wouldn’t be one of my “shock” adventures, its too important. And, I agree that from where you’re sitting I’m coming off a little nutty.

No offense taken. I appreciate all thoughts. That is probably why I’m in the situation.

I’m not going to rush into anything, I have friends on both sides I can talk to about each church. So if one of these is my path it will be well guided.

Thanks

I loved to play dungeons and Dragons…as a kid (still do actually) lol

At the the OP do not make things so black/white or Yin/Yang . There is always shades of grey to everything it just depends on your state of mind and or circumstances.

Read as much as you can on everything discussed here before asking questions in a wondering light.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

I’m not good at quoting scripture but I know 2 things

the verse that makes polytheism wrongs says “let us” in god’s voice which means there are more than one in heaven, right?[/quote]

There are many examples of God saying “us” “our” or “we”, here are three such examples, there are others:

Gen 1:26 - “Let us make man in our image…”

Gen 3:22- “The man has now become like one of us…”

Isa 6:8 - “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

God is with Christ who was there from the beginning. There are other such references in the New Testament as well speaking of Christ being there from the beginning.

For example:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

This is a direct reference to Jesus Christ being one with God.

[quote]
and why would god, who loves us, not want us to have knowledge?[/quote]

In Hebrew the word for “knowledge” also means “knowing,” and the entire phrase might be translated as “knowing how to distinguish good from evil” which Adam presumably wouldn’t need to do as he lived in a perfect paradise, the Garden of Eden. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil. Their sin of disobeying God brought sin and evil into the world and into their lives. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of evil.

I’ve read other interpretations to this, but none vary much off the path.

One more thing, anyone who is exploring their own personal spiritual path should be commended as that seems to be more the rarity these days. I would suggest that you first begin by actually reading the Christian Bible cover to cover with someone who has a good working knowledge of the scripture so that you are able to ask questions as you move along.

Many things will be revealed to you when you do this. Before actually reading the Bible I had a great many questions and also false theories regarding what was in the Bible regarding satan, Christ etc.

All the best to you, if I can ever be of any help don’t hesitate to PM me,

Zeb

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

I’m not good at quoting scripture but I know 2 things

the verse that makes polytheism wrongs says “let us” in god’s voice which means there are more than one in heaven, right?[/quote]

There are many examples of God saying “us” “our” or “we”, here are three such examples, there are others:

Gen 1:26 - “Let us make man in our image…”

Gen 3:22- “The man has now become like one of us…”

Isa 6:8 - “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

God is with Christ who was there from the beginning. There are other such references in the New Testament as well speaking of Christ being there from the beginning.

For example:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

This is a direct reference to Jesus Christ being one with God.

[quote]
and why would god, who loves us, not want us to have knowledge?[/quote]

In Hebrew the word for “knowledge” also means “knowing,” and the entire phrase might be translated as “knowing how to distinguish good from evil” which Adam presumably wouldn’t need to do as he lived in a perfect paradise, the Garden of Eden. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil. Their sin of disobeying God brought sin and evil into the world and into their lives. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of evil.

I’ve read other interpretations to this, but none vary much off the path.

One more thing, anyone who is exploring their own personal spiritual path should be commended as that seems to be more the rarity these days. I would suggest that you first begin by actually reading the Christian Bible cover to cover with someone who has a good working knowledge of the scripture so that you are able to ask questions as you move along.

Many things will be revealed to you when you do this. Before actually reading the Bible I had a great many questions and also false theories regarding what was in the Bible regarding satan, Christ etc.

All the best to you, if I can ever be of any help don’t hesitate to PM me,

Zeb[/quote]

thanks, I’m sure I will be sending you a few questions down the road.