Estradiol: Why You Should Care

Pharma TRT
141

Your hormone balance [natural - not on TRT] includes how T, E and the HPTA play together. When you use an AI to adjust E [and then perhaps T], that is HRT! One component of that is the T:E ratio.

HRT includes replacement and balancing your hormones.

With TRT, T goes up and E also goes up. T is [hopefully] increased to optimal levels. Good practice is to control E2 to achieve optimal levels, in case by reducing not by adding. To not do this is to have a TRT induced estrogen imbalance and that is malpractice from an HRT point of view.

Likewise, with TRT, hCG should be used to compensate for a T induced loss of LH. If this is not done, the result is organ failure [bye bye testicles].

142

[quote]KSman wrote:
Your hormone balance [natural - not on TRT] includes how T, E and the HPTA play together. When you use an AI to adjust E [and then perhaps T], that is HRT! One component of that is the T:E ratio.

HRT includes replacement and balancing your hormones.
[/quote]

Yes, you’re right. But I was writing specifically about TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) which is a subset of HRT and which exclusively denotes addition of T.

I believe there are many out there whose T levels hover around the minimum level (300 on a scale of 300 - 1000) and whose E has crept up to high normal but medically is still considered “normal” (say 50 on a 20 - 54 scale). These guys may or may not need TRT, but they do need some type of HRT in terms of E control.

[quote]
With TRT, T goes up and E also goes up. T is [hopefully] increased to optimal levels. Good practice is to control E2 to achieve optimal levels, in case by reducing not by adding.

To not do this is to have a TRT induced estrogen imbalance and that is malpractice from an HRT point of view. Likewise, with TRT, hCG should be used to compensate for a T induced loss of LH. If this is not done, the result is organ failure [bye bye testicles].[/quote]

This is already understood. And some of your other posts have done a grand service in warning people about using lower dosages of the hCG to prevent overwhelming and burning out the leydig cells response to it.

To continue to beat the dead horse, I personally am interested in the possibility of the body “adjusting” to the arimidex and putting out more aromatase.

This would have the unpleasant effect of E going up. The solution would be more arimidex but I’m unsure of how far this mechanism can go (there must be a limit to how much aromatase the body can produce).

Proponents of aromasin say this increase of aromatase will not occur. But I’m skeptical of that, and again am not quite sure how accurate that statement is.

144

I’ve never had any bloodwork done but for informational purposes, is there any dependency on AI’s after you reach the ideal range?

For instance, if one brought their E2 from 60 to 20 and their TT from 300 to 800 using the T+AI+hCG combo, would they be able to taper off completely from all drugs without sacrificing these “ideal” levels of TT:E2?

145

Happydog,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I really appreciate it. I do feel like a dumb-ass because I indeed totally forgot to add that I wanted to get tested before making any decisions to add a chemical to my regimen. Sorry about that. Could have saved you some time typing although the ‘treatise’ was very educational :slight_smile:

I have several friends who are physicians and I have approached them about getting tests done and this should not prove to be a problem.

What I should have written down was:

Step 1: lower body fat through diet (high fiber and liberal portions of vegetables like Broccoli, Cauliflower and Brussels sprouts to start managing estrogen en clearing bad estrogen out) and exercise. To facilitate start taking the following natural supplements: Alpha Male, ZMA and Holy Basil to raise testosterone and lose fat, HOT-ROX to lose fat, DIM (to help the vegetables clear out any bad estrogen and perhaps D-Gluc and grape seed. In other words start naturally and do this for about 8 weeks to burn fat, start the management of estrogen and attempt to raise testosterone naturally.

Step 1b) Get tested!! If ranges and fat loss are good, stay with protocol, if not

Step 2: perhaps consider taking Clenbuterol (liquid research chemical version) to maximize fat loss and Clomid (and I am not sure about this one due to its possible side effects) to raise testosterone to maximum level (no longer then 14 days no matter what). I would, of course, continue with the extra fiber, the vegetables and the ZMA

Step 2b) Get tested again.

Step 3) ONLY when levels are not desirable consider using and AI all the while continuing life style changes.

Would this be a decent protocol?

Marc

146

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

Yes, you’re right. But I was writing specifically about TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) which is a subset of HRT and which exclusively denotes addition of T.
[/quote]

It doesn’t really matter what you call it, bad treatment is bad treatment and we’ve seen time and again that testosterone by itself is, for most, a bad protocol.

Well if you want to get pedantic about names, then HRT has nothing to do with E control by itself because you’re not “replacing” anything. HRT and TRT both specifically imply taking exogenous steroids.

The body is a homeostatic system and if your HPTA is functioning, then you should expect it to adjust to anything you do to it. However, as you say, there is a limit to how much aromatase it can make. We’ve seen that this response is all over the map. I know guys doing fine on one drop of anastrozole EOD and other guys needing ten drops ED so you won’t really know where you’re at until you get into it.

It may be perfectly accurate for the guy saying it and not so much for someone else. This is why medical studies have many subjects and they publish the range of responses.

You should also consider the difference between young guys with fully functioning HPTAs and older guys whose HPTA is working against them. One would expect different responses between the two groups. While the TRT guys and the guys doing steroid cycles do have some things in common, they are also very different in many ways and you need to take all of it into consideration as well as the fact that you can discuss theory all day long, but none of it means anything until you actually start doing something.

You’re never going to know it all. In the end, we are all forced to make serious decisions with less than perfect information and a less than perfect understanding of the mechanisms involved. That’s simply the way it is.

147

[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
I’ve never had any bloodwork done but for informational purposes, is there any dependency on AI’s after you reach the ideal range?

For instance, if one brought their E2 from 60 to 20 and their TT from 300 to 800 using the T+AI+hCG combo, would they be able to taper off completely from all drugs without sacrificing these “ideal” levels of TT:E2?[/quote]

If you need drugs to sort out your hormones, that need isn’t going to go away. TRT is a treatment, not a cure.

148

@IamMarqaos,

What you do and how you do it really needs to depend on your goals.

I’m not a fan of temporary approaches as a way to meet long term goals.

Sounds to me like you want to do a cycle using everything except steroids. If that’s the case, then go for it and see how it goes.

But if your nutrition and training currently have you at X% body fat, then using clen to lower it would only be a temporary approach and you should expect your body fat to go back up as soon as you stop taking it.

149

Happydog,

Apologies, I probably conveyed something different then intended. I actually do not wish to do any kind of cycle or use any kind of chemical UNLESS there is no other way. This is merely my first attempt to gather the best info possible so that I can hit the ground running, so to speak, when the test results come back warranting action.

It is my sincere hope that I can use natural means to get it done.

I am only interested in compounds like Clomid because they appear to restore the body’s production of testosterone after a cycle, or if something isn’t quite right physiologically or after bouts of extreme stress. I am looking to restore myself only, and avoid HRT for as long as possible, and then maintain that situation. The medical professionals I spoke to frowned upon Clomid because it is their understanding that only women use it. My best friend is an internist and he laughed out loud and was like: ‘Yep, only you would ask me that question’. He did mention that it was possibly a good way to go but he had no experience with it for men.

It appears though that I have more to think about and the next 12 weeks I will focus on fat loss, stress management and naturally raising test (if possible) and taking the right steps to manage estrogen through diet and supps. I’ll have myself tested at 8 weeks and go from there.

Thanks for you time and insights, it is appreciated.

Marc

150

Marc,

Clomind is a bad idea and I’ll tell you why. It’s a SERM. That means Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator. It acts on estrogen receptors. In some cases it activates them and in some cases it deactivates them. In the case of HPTA function, it deactivates the estrogen sensors that tell your body how much estrogen you have circulating in your system and so in response, your body pumps out more testosterone so it can get converted to estrogen and thereby restore the balance it believes is lost. The problem with this is that your levels of estrogen aren’t really low and so while the SERM is tricking your HPTA, it isn’t tricking your androgen receptors and they are happily getting deactivated by the estrogen circulating in your system. Don’t forget that testosterone is only a messenger and nothing happens until it binds to an androgen receptor.

The use of Clomid also assumes that you have a normally functioning HPTA. If your HPTA isn’t putting out the testosterone it should now, then by definition it isn’t functioning normally and all bets are off.

Hang tough and see what the blood work shows.

151

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
You should also consider the difference between young guys with fully functioning HPTAs and older guys whose HPTA is working against them. One would expect different responses between the two groups. While the TRT guys and the guys doing steroid cycles do have some things in common, they are also very different in many ways and you need to take all of it into consideration as well as the fact that you can discuss theory all day long, but none of it means anything until you actually start doing something.
[/quote]
Very true. I too am a proponent of finding out one’s individual responses to these protocols. As I mentioned before, I don’t have any issues with T or E, and therefore can’t really justifiably test AIs on myself. This topic interests me greatly from an academic point of view.

But the fun is the searching for the answers…even if they are not out there yet! Thus, intelligent speculation, even if it turns out to be wrong, is entertaining for some of us…me especially.

I am an engineer at heart…I have a need to know how things work. I do not accept “that’s the way it is”. There is little data right now, so what’s left is to bring forth the concept and explore via discussion to see if any plausible explanations make sense. The discussions can lead to eventual experimentation; something I tend to do with myself but in a manner that I feel “safe” with.

152

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Marc,

Clomind is a bad idea and I’ll tell you why. It’s a SERM. That means Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator. It acts on estrogen receptors. In some cases it activates them and in some cases it deactivates them. In the case of HPTA function, it deactivates the estrogen sensors that tell your body how much estrogen you have circulating in your system and so in response, your body pumps out more testosterone so it can get converted to estrogen and thereby restore the balance it believes is lost. The problem with this is that your levels of estrogen aren’t really low and so while the SERM is tricking your HPTA, it isn’t tricking your androgen receptors and they are happily getting deactivated by the estrogen circulating in your system. Don’t forget that testosterone is only a messenger and nothing happens until it binds to an androgen receptor.

The use of Clomid also assumes that you have a normally functioning HPTA. If your HPTA isn’t putting out the testosterone it should now, then by definition it isn’t functioning normally and all bets are off.

Hang tough and see what the blood work shows.[/quote]

Thus the concept of taking a SERM to increase T, and concurrently taking an AI to reduce the E. Then you get an increase in T, a decrease in E…that is actually a very good thing. The issues manifest themselves when the body wants to really convert the T into excessive DHT for example.

And this works for me, as far as the artificial increase in T and subsequent decrease in E. This IS something I have done many times and the result is a definite increase in T and a decrease in E.

On second thought, why I didn’t just try an AI only cycle with bloodwork done before, during, and after protocol kind of stymies me now! Something on my list to try…

But yes, if the HPTA isn’t producing LH like it should after the E receptors are “occupied” by the clomid in the hypothalamus, then bets are definitely off. HCG, taken as instructed by KSman comes into the picture here I think. And, if the testes are then the problem, exogenous T.

153

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Thus the concept of taking a SERM to increase T, and concurrently taking an AI to reduce the E. Then you get an increase in T, a decrease in E…that is actually a very good thing. The issues manifest themselves when the body wants to really convert the T into excessive DHT for example.
[/quote]

This reasoning is, of course, not applicable to those of us with age related low T. In our case, the HPTA ‘set points’ have shifted and our bodies consider low T and high E to be the proper balance it is trying to maintain. In our case, the Clomid is completely unnecessary because simply using an AI to reduce E causes the same response of elevating T. This has been demonstrated in studies available at pubmed and in my personal experience.

154

I have been reading this…and learned so much…but some claim you MUST be on anti’s and NEED them…some say most…but not all convert to estrogen ?? whos right ?
as I said…with a TEST level of 950 and no other drugs at all for over 6 months on TEST inject…and nothing was used (a friend of mine) so why is that ? I asked him…he seems to have no syptoms or signs of estrogen probs…
so will this change ? will he ever need anti’s ??
*anyone ever hear of i think its called dela-test-erly ? or something ?

155

[quote]KSman wrote:
Likewise, with TRT, hCG should be used to compensate for a T induced loss of LH. If this is not done, the result is organ failure [bye bye testicles].[/quote]

hcG is not the end all be all for maintaining testicular functioning on hrt. FSH(follicle stimulating hormone) is shutdown on TRT + hcG. FSH is also responsible for testicular size and sperm stability - many on a FSH drug such as hmG note much improved testicular size, incease in ejaculate volume and better orasm.

Note that hcG can be run with hmG.

Also note that hmG is expensive

I would say 5 years from now, if price goes down, everyone will be using hmG, or an hmG like substance that mimics FSH along with hcG

156

[quote]fightu35 wrote:
I have been reading this…and learned so much…but some claim you MUST be on anti’s and NEED them…some say most…but not all convert to estrogen ?? whos right ?
as I said…with a TEST level of 950 and no other drugs at all for over 6 months on TEST inject…and nothing was used (a friend of mine) so why is that ? I asked him…he seems to have no syptoms or signs of estrogen probs…
so will this change ? will he ever need anti’s ??
*anyone ever hear of i think its called dela-test-erly ? or something ?[/quote]

The message KSMan and HappyDog are trying to make (and one I am totally on board with) is that AI’s are needed by many, but not everyone. It all depends on the individual response to exogenous T in the body. Some guys’ bodies have adapted, with age, to producing more aromatase than others, and therefore are much more efficient at converting the T into E. The only way to tell for sure is getting bloodwork done that measures both T AND E.

As HappyDog states, just because you have high T might mean squat if your corresponding E is also high.

If your friend has no symptoms of high E, then there really isn’t any reason for an AI. He might be one of the lucky ones who do not produce excessive amounts of aromatase.

157

[quote]Get out the Door wrote:
KSman wrote:
Likewise, with TRT, hCG should be used to compensate for a T induced loss of LH. If this is not done, the result is organ failure [bye bye testicles].

hcG is not the end all be all for maintaining testicular functioning on hrt. FSH(follicle stimulating hormone) is shutdown on TRT + hcG. FSH is also responsible for testicular size and sperm stability - many on a FSH drug such as hmG note much improved testicular size, incease in ejaculate volume and better orasm.

Note that hcG can be run with hmG.

Also note that hmG is expensive

I would say 5 years from now, if price goes down, everyone will be using hmG, or an hmG like substance that mimics FSH along with hcG[/quote]

Interesting info, and it makes sense.
As far as I understand it (and I am the biggest duffus), hCG mimics LH. The testes normally gets pulses of both LH and FSH…the LH for T production, the FSH for sperm production. It makes sense that replacement of both is necessary.

I think the conservative approach with dosages as proposed by KSMan is in order for this as well though. Just like the leydig cells in the testes have the potential of being overwhelmed by too much LH (and subsequent possible damage), the same might be said of hMG.

158

[quote]fightu35 wrote:

*anyone ever hear of i think its called dela-test-erly ? or something ?[/quote]

DELATESTRYL®, it’s the brand/trade name for the Testosterone Enanthate that we can get here in Canada…hebs

159

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

If your friend has no symptoms of high E, then there really isn’t any reason for an AI. He might be one of the lucky ones who do not produce excessive amounts of aromatase. [/quote]

Absolutely.

Many younger men, especially thinner, active ones, on daily testosterone(a transdermal gel), do not need or use an AI

160

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Get out the Door wrote:
KSman wrote:
Likewise, with TRT, hCG should be used to compensate for a T induced loss of LH. If this is not done, the result is organ failure [bye bye testicles].

hcG is not the end all be all for maintaining testicular functioning on hrt. FSH(follicle stimulating hormone) is shutdown on TRT + hcG. FSH is also responsible for testicular size and sperm stability - many on a FSH drug such as hmG note much improved testicular size, incease in ejaculate volume and better orasm.

Note that hcG can be run with hmG.

Also note that hmG is expensive

I would say 5 years from now, if price goes down, everyone will be using hmG, or an hmG like substance that mimics FSH along with hcG

Interesting info, and it makes sense.
As far as I understand it (and I am the biggest duffus), hCG mimics LH. The testes normally gets pulses of both LH and FSH…the LH for T production, the FSH for sperm production. It makes sense that replacement of both is necessary.

I think the conservative approach with dosages as proposed by KSMan is in order for this as well though. Just like the leydig cells in the testes have the potential of being overwhelmed by too much LH (and subsequent possible damage), the same might be said of hMG. [/quote]

Your spot on.

hcG was the beginning. But it is nowhere near as effective as hcG + hmG.

Note that newer versions of hmG often have hcG included.

Its amazing how much this field changes by the day