Forgive me if this has been asked previously…
KSMan, I repeatedly see you mentioning Arimidex (non-suicidal AI) and I haven’t (at least from what I have read) seen you mention Aromasin (suicidal AI.) Is there a reason you recommend one as opposed to the other?
What is so great about “suicidal AI” when you need to take so many mg’s compared to 1mg/week with Arimidex/anastrozole?
Anastrozole can be less expensive to use than Exemestane.
Half life:
Aromasin/Exemestane 27 hours
Arimidex/Anastrozole 47 hours
With anastrozole, you can dose less frequently.
Most do very well with anastrozole and rarely are there any tolerance issues. Aromasin/Exemestane is valuable for the few who do not find a balance with anastrozole.
For the most part, “suicidal AI” is all hype and no real merit. The body building and bro-science boards get very excited about “suicidal AI”.
So Arimidex/Anastrozole should be the first choice AI with its lower mg chemical load, longer half life and lower cost.
I am new here but I expected no less of an answer. As far as what is so great about one being suicidal and the other not, I do not have the answer but I fully expected you to have one.
Thank you very much for the response.
Great read. Thanks.
[quote]KSman wrote:
What is so great about “suicidal AI” when you need to take so many mg’s compared to 1mg/week with Arimidex/anastrozole?
Anastrozole can be less expensive to use than Exemestane.
Half life:
Aromasin/Exemestane 27 hours
Arimidex/Anastrozole 47 hours
With anastrozole, you can dose less frequently.
Most do very well with anastrozole and rarely are there any tolerance issues. Aromasin/Exemestane is valuable for the few who do not find a balance with anastrozole.
For the most part, “suicidal AI” is all hype and no real merit. The body building and bro-science boards get very excited about “suicidal AI”.
So Arimidex/Anastrozole should be the first choice AI with its lower mg chemical load, longer half life and lower cost.
[/quote]
FYI,
Aromasin’s half life is much faster in men. i believe the 27 hours applies to women only…
I see your point. But as this chemical binds to aromatase, the effect is not determined by serum levels of the drug. I would like to see the E2 curves over time for single and repeated doses. Note that max E2 suppression was at a time past drug terminal half-life. Terminal half-life is time for serum levels to drop to 50% after last/terminal dose. Might be better to see terminal half-life of average level.
I did not see anything at the link suggesting: Aromasin’s half life is much faster in men.
Many have good effects from 12.5mg EOD. So one still needs to adjust with lab work to deal with one’ own response.
[quote]KSman wrote:
I see your point. But as this chemical binds to aromatase, the effect is not determined by serum levels of the drug. I would like to see the E2 curves over time for single and repeated doses. Note that max E2 suppression was at a time past drug terminal half-life. Terminal half-life is time for serum levels to drop to 50% after last/terminal dose. Might be better to see terminal half-life of average level.
I did not see anything at the link suggesting: Aromasin’s half life is much faster in men.
Many have good effects from 12.5mg EOD. So one still needs to adjust with lab work to deal with one’ own response.[/quote]
"The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 +/- 14% was observed at 12 h. "
What is the point you are trying to make with that quote?
[quote]KSman wrote:
What is the point you are trying to make with that quote?[/quote]
"I did not see anything at the link suggesting: Aromasin’s half life is much faster in men. "
it’s 8.9 hours, not 27 hours. hence me posting the link to the study…
this link briefly discusses the gender difference:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2003-031279
“The terminal half-life in the present study (8.9 h) was considerably shorter than the published value of 27 h (23). The reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to a true gender dependency possibly involving the volume of distribution (lower in males than females) and plasma or tissue protein binding (respectively, higher and lower in males).”
I have primary Low T due to testicular cancer 30 years ago, so one teste. My Primary Care Physician rx’d me 100mg/Wk of Cypionate, drawing and injecting w/a 21 gauge needle – the 1st sign of incompetence. She would only do total T, so I went to the Urologist to get an E2 lad – had to practically beg him – imcompetent Uro. Finally got labs and my Total T went from 185 to 1017. Also:
Testosterone, Serum 1017 348-1197 ng/dL
Testosterone,Free 46.68 5.00-21.00 ng/dL
% Free Testosterone 4.59 1.50-4.20 %
Estradiol 55.8 7.6-42.6 pg/mL
Looks like I responded well to the 100mg/Wk of Cypionate. I’m lifting and am getting strong, but I’m retaining water and my base weight is 10lbs over my normal weight prior to TRT. I suggested an AI to the Uro and he said higher E2 is good for your sex life – total dip shit. I started having trouble maintaining an erection and think it is due to elevated E2 - don’t know, B/C I’m not a "Doctor"but my research leans towards elevated E2. Went to the Endo thinking he would RX me an AI and he did, but prescribed me Armiidex 1mg/per day – what an incompetent dip shit. I took the full 1mg dose and OMG I got dizzy and my diastolic BP was 64 – Arimidex is powerful, I can’t imagine doing 1mg/day. Since my only testicle is getting smaller I asked him his thoughts on HCG and he said we don’t do that here and he said, “I don’t think you can get that around here” – Dip Shit. What’s my point? Doctors are scary and most don’t know anything regarding HRT – even the so called specialists – scary!
You should create your own thread and not post in this sticky. -thanks
You’re tried and falling a sleep at work? Got Low T?
Got a big heads up for ya…
SLEEP APNEA
I swear, NOBODY talks about this…how sleep apnea can wipe out your T.
in 2012, actually over a few years I went from getting 7-8 hrs of sleep to 7-6 and finally 6-5. But somehow muddled through. I was diagnosed with Low T in 2012.
Tried Andogel-nothing
patch-nothing
pill under the tongue-worked but inconsistent
Peletts-worked but real expensive
Clomid-raised T went up from 390 to 444, but also shot my E2 from 12 to 60.
I’m off everything now and I’m trying to find out if SA is the problem.
Learn form my experience guys… if anyone has low T plus tired/sleepy, get a sleep study first. Determine if you have SA. If so, get that fixed first. If not, then by all means got some HRT. Don’t do it ass backwards like I did.
You are unable to properly absorb transdermal T products. You need to self-inject T.
Inability to absorb T through the skin is also a symptom of hypothyroidism.
Read these stickies:
Fck, wish I would have read this, I know E2…but the excess fat. I kept cutting, dropped 20lbs- I am only 5ft.8- so 20lbs is drastic. I dropped that in 16 weeks. Dropped 10% bodyfat…and kept on wondering why I keep fat so bad in the abdominals etc. Well my Estrogen has always been high in about 66% of my Lab tests. I had a test level of 898, and my estrogen was in the 70s. Don’t know if that is a good T to E ratio. Don’t know if E2 helps with acne…cause I get outbreaks of that.
Been on trt for 4 years- not age related. I was 26 when I started…and I am unsure if it was a jump the gun thing by docs. I had test levels come back at 131 and 208 back then. However, the blood was drawn early afternoon, not morning. Now I am 30.
Please open your own tread and provide all labs in list format with ranges.
Read these stickies
KSman,
Is it possible to have the following scenario:
-too much HCG → uncontrollable conversion of T to E2 inside testes → elevated serum E2 → use AI to bring it E2 down to ideal range
BUT
-peripheral aromatization (brain, bones, wherever else we need it) is crashed locally, by too much Adex and the only E2 is from the testes?
IF SO:
-will serum E2 from the testes be able to do the job alone for those tissues (brain, bones etc.)?
OR
-I have this possibility all wrong?
You do not need much hCG as part of T+AI+hCG to maintain the testes.
Yes, one can push peripheral T–>E2 low while serum E2 levels may be adequate. No, there is no clinical or research data to eval effects of this. But serum E2 is still in circulation. If you feel good, that means that whatever is happening in the brain is OK.
You got the thinking right. The downside is mostly theoretical at this point. Avoid issues with hCG that is too high for you. Go with what feels right.
Do you believe the factors influencing estrogen levels are dependent almost entirely on serum T levels, liver clearance rates and body fat levels? Are there any other influencing factors associated?
For a given amount of aromatase in the body, T–>E2 production is probably a linear function of the amount if FT or bio-T.
Amount of aromatase is linear to some extend to the amount of fat.
Due to the similarity of T and estrogens, I expect that T may be a competitive AI to some extent.
The above affects E production rates. One’s estrogen levels are a balance of production and clearance rates.
If someone increases their T dose and anastrozole by the same factor, we expect that E2 levels will not change. That tells us a lot.
Related. I now need to take 0.5mg anastrozole per week with TT=1600. Anastrozole is not more effective for me after 9 years of TRT. It is like aromatase has been reduced. I am lean and have been this way for a long time. Perhaps its not the AI that made this happen, but a response to lower E2 for a long time. Maybe one can transition to an over-responder.
Davinci.v2 here still using this old login while my original is retrieved. I was curious KSman what your thoughts were on whether this symptom is high e2, low e2 or e2 related at all.
Sudden burning sensation on skin accompanied by very red face and occasionally arms and chest. Looks similar to a sun burn. The sensation tends to only last around 20 minutes then vanishes as quickly as it appeared.
Do you think this is e2 related and is it likely from high e2 or low e2?