[quote]skidmark wrote:
http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/full/29/3/251
Might have some relevant information…[/quote]
Thanks Skid.
I finally decided to break down and order a estradiol test. My primary physician refuses to give me one so had to go through internet. I have tried every type of dosing of arimidex possible and I still feel like crap. I haven’t dosed arimidex in nearly two weeks. On 100mg of test cypionate / week. Can someone please advise on when I should take the bloodtest. I do my shots on Weds. mornings. This Weds will be my 5th shot.
Do I do it right after the shot or do I wait until levels go down near the end of the week? I cannot keep my eyes open at work. Literally falling asleep at my desk. Trying to determine where this is coming from. Any advice would be appreciated.
Take 1/2 way between injections, 3.5 days. Same for other frequencies.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Take 1/2 way between injections, 3.5 days. Same for other frequencies.[/quote]
KSman, Thanks for the help…
nc maniac, I’m having the exact same symptom as you (very sleepy during the day, having trouble staying awake). This all started when I went on TRT. Please share your estradiol test results when they come in if you don’t mind. I’d be curious to see what they are. I’m waiting for my own - should get them next week.
Also, to the others on this thread, can you point me to any studies or research about estradiol levels in men? What is the evidence for the claim that keeping estrogen in the relatively low end of the range is beneficial? The article cited earlier in this thread dealt with metabolic syndrome.
Finally, has anyone considered using 6-OXO vs. arimidex for aromatase inhibition? Seems there’s some support for its effects:
Some estrogen connections here:
This google search:
[ estrogen men male site:www.lef.org/protocols/abstracts/abstr]
Searches deep into lef.org to find abstracts that have estrogen links of interest.
[quote]mikemass wrote:
Finally, has anyone considered using 6-OXO vs. arimidex for aromatase inhibition? Seems there’s some support for its effects:
I’ve used 6-OXO and found it to be not very effective at 300mg per day. It worked better at 600mg per day but I can’t justify the cost. Anastrozole works well and nothing else comes close to the price.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Some estrogen connections here:
This google search:
[ estrogen men male site:www.lef.org/protocols/abstracts/abstr]
Searches deep into lef.org to find abstracts that have estrogen links of interest.[/quote]
I talked with the HRT clinic in town today. They were apologizing that the blood work they require has to cover the various estrogen complexes, which convinced me that they might know what they are looking at.
Generally they prescribe blended creams, though they have a number of guys on injectable doses. I think I’m going to set up an appointment to see how the blood work comes back.
Mike, Will do. I ordered the kit from LEF this week and still hasn’t arrived. Will post the results. Really needing to get to the bottom of this tiredness. It’s affecting me at work. Funny thing is when I get in the gym at night time , I’m like an animal. I’ve been doing 2+ hr lifting sessions, followed by MMA training and hardly winded. During the day I’m falling asleep every two hours.
[quote]mikemass wrote:
nc maniac, I’m having the exact same symptom as you (very sleepy during the day, having trouble staying awake). This all started when I went on TRT. Please share your estradiol test results when they come in if you don’t mind. I’d be curious to see what they are. I’m waiting for my own - should get them next week.
Also, to the others on this thread, can you point me to any studies or research about estradiol levels in men? What is the evidence for the claim that keeping estrogen in the relatively low end of the range is beneficial? The article cited earlier in this thread dealt with metabolic syndrome.
Finally, has anyone considered using 6-OXO vs. arimidex for aromatase inhibition? Seems there’s some support for its effects:
KSMan,
I looked through some of the links you posted and also did my own search of “estradiol” with “men” in pubmed, but couldn’t find anything that specifically supports the claim that lowering estrogen levels to the lower end of the accepted range does anything beneficial for men.
I did find a study from 1984 that saw an increase of estradiol to “supraphysiologic” levels a few days following IM injection of T. But the study didn’t discuss the effects.
There are plenty of studies proving that high estrogen is generally bad for men, but nothing that I could find that says high normal (in range) is bad.
Now, I’m not trying to be a nudge. If enough guys on here feel that lowering E2 to the lower end of the range benefits them, that’s good enough for me to want to try it.
I’m just looking for something more concrete. Some evidence I can use to convince my doc to let me try an AI. Can you point me to something that specifically supports the claim about lowering E2 to the 20s?
Thanks.
Mike
[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Trust me, if your T is 250 and your E is 50, you may be “in range” for both values, but you aren’t going to feel good or have anywhere near the athletic and sexual performance that would have if your T was 800 and your E was 15.
[/quote]
After my 4 years of experience — no truer words were ever spoken.
1 Like
[quote]mikemass wrote:
I’m just looking for something more concrete. Some evidence I can use to convince my doc to let me try an AI. Can you point me to something that specifically supports the claim about lowering E2 to the 20s?
Thanks.
Mike[/quote]
Low Serum Testosterone and Mortality in Older Men
Gail A. Laughlin, Elizabeth Barrett-Connor and Jaclyn Bergstrom
Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, School of Medicine, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, California 92093
Context: Declining testosterone levels in elderly men are thought to underlie many of the symptoms and diseases of aging; however, studies demonstrating associations of low testosterone with clinical outcomes are few.
Objective: The objective of the study was to examine the association of endogenous testosterone levels with mortality in older community-dwelling men.
Design, Setting, and Participants: This was a prospective, population-based study of 794 men, aged 50�??91 (median 73.6) yr who had serum testosterone measurements at baseline (1984�??1987) and were followed for mortality through July 2004.
Main Outcome Measure: All-cause mortality by serum testosterone level was measured.
Results: During an average 11.8-yr follow-up, 538 deaths occurred. Men whose total testosterone levels were in the lowest quartile (<241 ng/dl) were 40% [hazards ratio (HR) 1.40; 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.14�??1.71] more likely to die than those with higher levels, independent of age, adiposity, and lifestyle. Additional adjustment for health status markers, lipids, lipoproteins, blood pressure, glycemia, adipocytokines, and estradiol levels had minimal effect on results. The low testosterone-mortality association was also independent of the metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and prevalent cardiovascular disease but was attenuated by adjustment for IL-6 and C-reactive protein. In cause-specific analyses, low testosterone predicted increased risk of cardiovascular (HR 1.38; 95% CI 1.02�??1.85) and respiratory disease (HR 2.29; 95% CI 1.25�??4.20) mortality but was not significantly related to cancer death (HR 1.34; 95% CI 0.89�??2.00). Results were similar for bioavailable testosterone.
Conclusions: Testosterone insufficiency in older men is associated with increased risk of death over the following 20 yr, independent of multiple risk factors and several preexisting health conditions."
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/1/68
I’m not KSMan, but I certainly hope this helps you.
HH
HH,
Thanks for passing on the info. Unfortunately this study discusses T only, and in fact seems to state that estradiol levels were of no consequence to this particular finding. No one is disputing that low T is bad. It’s the specific question of proof of the role of estradiol levels in men (even when “in range”). Anyone?
BTW, if I were to try generic Arimidex on my own, anyone know of a good, reliable pharmacy site that sells it?
Mike
Arimidex is the patented name for the drug. The chemical name is anastrozole and it is sold over the counter as a “research chemical”. Google for anastrozole and research chemical and you’ll find sources.
The “proof” that lower E2 levels are beneficial is in the experience of those of us actually on TRT. I’ve experimented on myself and I don’t need any more proof than that. I’m not saying that you should believe me, I’m just telling you what I know for a fact from my own experience.
I’ve also talked with several guys who have had the same experience. The T only protocol they were on worked wonders for a couple of weeks and then all the good went away. Once they started on AI, things got better again.
If you feel fine, then you feel fine and who cares what anyone else says? If you’re not getting the results you’d like from your TRT, then look to E as a possible explanation. If this is all just an intellectual exercise, then keep looking around pubmed.
For someone not on TRT, you could easily get away with 4 drops of anastrozole every other day. That would cost you $1.35 a month for FDA proven results.
happydog, would two drops a day serve the same purpose? It would be easier to remember that way.
I’m not the dog, but two drops every day will work out to the same average.
KNB
[quote]KNB wrote:
I’m not the dog, but two drops every day will work out to the same average.
KNB[/quote]
Seems like if your T results were in the middle for your age, the two drops a day would be enough, in and of themselves, to give you some good results.
Any studies?
[quote]Elaikases wrote:
KNB wrote:
I’m not the dog, but two drops every day will work out to the same average.
KNB
Seems like if your T results were in the middle for your age, the two drops a day would be enough, in and of themselves, to give you some good results.
Any studies?
[/quote]
Here’s my current study from last week’s b/w. I had been consistently taking 5 drops a day of liquid adex as part of my HCG/ADEX/TRT protocol using 50mg of T-Cpy EOD, 250iu HCG EOD.
My point: I knew something was “wrong” but not specifically symptomatic, so I got an E2 test. It was 69. No wonder I felt “weird”. I must be one of the lucky ones sarcasm that will turn T to E2 with ease.
As soon as I got my results back, I upped my dosage back to the (previously) doctor recommended of 2mg/week by front loading 1mg in the morning and by by late afternoon, the barometer shall we say was back up.
Prior to this, my last blood test at 2mg/week was <32. It may have also been very early into my HCG addition but I don’t remember where those specific test results are at this moment.
My joints didn’t hurt, my junk worked, wasn’t sleepy or anything, but still thought 2mg was too much. Never again will I go below 2mg/week at current TRT protocol. Heck, I may gradually even go up until my joints hurt, then back down to the previous week to see if that’s my happy spot.
I believe the HCG caused increased T to E2 conversion, but I don’t have the TT and FT results back until later this week.
I hope this helps somebody…
Edit: I got the rest of the test results back.
Total T 1121 (250-1100) according to my standard calculations I regularly use I planned to be at 850, so I’ll guess the HCG gave me the extra 250…
Free T 220.9 (35-155)
Free T % 1.97 (1.5-2.2)
If my E2 was down in the 20’s I’m sure my T numbers would have been even higher. A while back I read Avena Sativa stops the binding to SHBG and take I 1gm a day, with 500mg Tribulus, and 500mg Chasteberry.
I have never had Free T and Free T % numbers this high before, so I’ll stay on the herbs as well as the adex just to be safe.
[quote]KNB wrote:
Elaikases wrote:
I believe the HCG caused increased T to E2 conversion, but I don’t have the TT and FT results back until later this week.
I hope this helps somebody…[/quote]
hcG will restart original production of testosterone. Unless you were castrated, you probably had levels of at least 2 to 300…So throw 300ng more extra T in your bloodstream and naturally your going to get more estrogen.