Estradiol: Why You Should Care

Fat contains a higher amount of aromatase than lean tissue. So more fat means more T–>E aromatization. So yes, higher body fat means more estrogen. And the trap is that more estrogen leads to more fat. While it would seem to follow that less fat would lead to needing less AI, that is not a universal truth. It might apply for those who really were carrying a lot of fat who loose a lot of fat. For guys who became flabby as they were loosing muscle with no really net gain of weight, when they loose fat and gain muscle with no significant weight change, they typically do not see a reduction in the needed AI dose. In this case, note that the body weight did not change. If a guy looses 20% of his body weight, it would make sense that he would need less AI. I do advise that the typical starting dose of AI can be scaled up by body weight vs a 160 pound reference. So a 240 pound guy could easily need 1.0 mg/week * 240/160 or 1.5mg/week.

Another factor is that SHBG bound T [SHBG-T] is inert and only bio-available for metabolic processes of elimination by the liver. T–>E reaction rates when on AI are proportional to the amount of non_SHBG-T, which is fT and bio available T [bio-T]. When you start TRT your fT and bio-T levels can increase as you loose fat. Over time higher levels of fT and bio-T reduce SHBG generation rates in the liver, just as lower E levels lower SHBG. This is probably an effect of T interfering with the mechanics of E stimulation higher SHBG rates. So one can consider T to be a competitive inhibitor in this context. As fT increases, SHBG goes down and fT then increases. So we have another self reinforcing swing that can occur.

SHBG does carry sex hormones. E can bind and release to SHBG. T is tightly bound. SHBG carries T to the liver for disposal. You will find statements on the WWW that SHBG carries T around the body to deliver T to tissues. That is absolutely false. If any T is released to tissues from SHBG-T, the amounts are not significant. Bio-T is ft and mostly T that is weakly bound to albumin. It is albumin that transports most of one’s T to tissues in the body. Higher levels of albumin improve bio-T. Some men have lower albumin levels with age. TRT increases protein synthesis and that does typically increase or restore more youthful levels of albumin. While such effects are not hugely significant, understanding the role of albumin is arguably more important than understanding the effects of SHBG.

When bio-T levels increase, that is more pressure on T–>E aromatization rates. The mechanics really do show an increasing need for AI as fT increases. What counter acts this is that increasing fT and bio-T will lead to less fat and less aromatase.

To complete the picture, competitive AI drugs need to be kept in proportion to bio-T levels. If one increases their T dose, AI should be increased in proportion. Where all of this breaks down is when hCG doses are large. T levels in the testes can be up to 80 times higher than serum levels. It is easy to see that typical serum levels of AI drugs are ineffective inside the testes where the T:AI ratios are vastly higher than in the rest of the body. In some cases where hCG doses are too high, E is basically unmanageable.

There seems to be a lot of guys who can report that they have had to increase AI doses over time. The body seems to have an increased T–>E aromatization rate. Some have argued that this is the body trying to compensate for the lower E levels achieved with AI use. But no such mechanism of that sort is understood.

In my case, I did well with 1.0mg/week per 100mg T cyp per week. That requirement could be termed a specific AI demand as it is normalized against the actual dose. My specific AI demand is now 1.46. Specific AI demand would also change with body weight and fat mass changes.

As for increasing one’s AI dose, there are no negative side effects or effects of low estrogen if one targets levels near serum E2=22pg/ml.

More and more research over many years has shown that the prostate is sensitive to E and that E causes prostate enlargement and other adverse changes. Some SERMs can shelter prostate E receptors from the effects of E. AI’s can be used to achieve healthier E levels that will be better for prostate health. These SERM effects are not chemo-preventative. “Chemo” has connotations for selective and controlled poisons used to kill fast dividing cancer cells.

With TRT, if you lower E and SHBG, fT increases and that in turn amplifies the reduction in fT. If one increases T doses to achieve high youthful levels of fT or bio-T, while disregarding TT levels, there can be a disproportionate increase in fT. So at some point the % increases in fT can exceed the % increases in T dosing. One needs to increase AI dosing to match changes in fT or bio-T so an higher specific AI demands makes sense once higher T doses begin to have these fT amplification effects. Some doctors [few] do not even test for TT and only look at bio-T or fT.

GeoBob: There are different tests for fT that do have vastly different ranges and test results. Can you edit your post above to include the fT ranges?

I need help with my letro dose. Here is what my doctor prescribed:

100mg test per week
250iu HCG 3 times per week
2.5mg letro per day

Now obviously 2.5 mg letro per day is insane. So how much should I be taking so that I keep my E2 levels in check, but not killed?

I was really motivated after reading this thread. My 300mg test enthanate stopped feeling so wonderful. On my own I noticed libido and stopped arimidex, waited for some nipple sensitivity and then went back to 1/2 or 1/4 tablet per week. After finding this thread I see how narrow the window is and how different we all react to anti-e. I was in the GP docs office for more bloodwork ( crazy that my hemoglobin is ‘low’ ) and asked again to pull blood for the hormone panel. The doc said some crazy stuff about how HGH shuts down testicles. I waived that off and said I am already on therapy just order the test I will pay out of pocket. He says that he will not know what to do with the numbers. I said simply give them to me. He said he does not want to be reponsible. So I switched the conversation to the nuclear treadmill stress test he setup for me and everything was normal. He also cancelled my cholesterol test negating the 12 hour fast I had just painfully completed. He said if I am on androgens there is no point examining my levels.

I got out of there and called the anti-aging clinic and told my guy to line up the hormone test I want:

Total T
Free T
Estrodial
LH
FSH
SHBG
Cortisol

Anything I am missing? Is there any reason to look at LH and FSH while I am on therapy?

Thanks! I am excited to get my numbers dialed in and leave them there. Oh the anti-aging people think that on cycle HCG is wrong, going to have to switch if they dont begin to see the light, HCG is everywhere I read about TRT.

[quote]HiredGun wrote:
I was really motivated after reading this thread. My 300mg test enthanate stopped feeling so wonderful. On my own I noticed libido and stopped arimidex, waited for some nipple sensitivity and then went back to 1/2 or 1/4 tablet per week. After finding this thread I see how narrow the window is and how different we all react to anti-e. I was in the GP docs office for more bloodwork ( crazy that my hemoglobin is ‘low’ ) and asked again to pull blood for the hormone panel. The doc said some crazy stuff about how HGH shuts down testicles. I waived that off and said I am already on therapy just order the test I will pay out of pocket. He says that he will not know what to do with the numbers. I said simply give them to me. He said he does not want to be reponsible. So I switched the conversation to the nuclear treadmill stress test he setup for me and everything was normal. He also cancelled my cholesterol test negating the 12 hour fast I had just painfully completed. He said if I am on androgens there is no point examining my levels.

I got out of there and called the anti-aging clinic and told my guy to line up the hormone test I want:

Total T
Free T
Estrodial
LH
FSH
SHBG
Cortisol

Anything I am missing? Is there any reason to look at LH and FSH while I am on therapy?

Thanks! I am excited to get my numbers dialed in and leave them there. Oh the anti-aging people think that on cycle HCG is wrong, going to have to switch if they dont begin to see the light, HCG is everywhere I read about TRT.[/quote]

Your HPTA is shutdown, testing LH and FSH is just stupid. Not much value in SHBG as it is a result of E levels and not something that you can directly control. So skip that too. Test serum Estradiol. That is all that you need for tuning your Arimidex dose.

You may find out of pocket labs cheaper at LEF.org, they also have a great price for CBC that includes cholesterol, hematocrit, iron and glucose.

Note that after you get the Arimidex dose refined, you will need to make changes to it when you change your T levels.

Tell the clinic that you need hCG as a low dose maintenance dose, 250iu EOD, not as a source of T. This will prevent testicular shutdown.

KSMAN,

Thanks I will be doing all of that and reporting back.

What do I do now months into this ? Get the HCG low maintenance dose started or just stop, PCT with HCG jumpstart and start over correctly after a couple months ?

Thanks!

[quote]HiredGun wrote:

What do I do now months into this ? Get the HCG low maintenance dose started or just stop, PCT with HCG jumpstart and start over correctly after a couple months ?

Thanks!
[/quote]

We are definitely getting off topic for this sticky. Are you going to be doing cycles or TRT?

[quote]KSman wrote:
We are definitely getting off topic for this sticky. Are you going to be doing cycles or TRT?[/quote]

I started with a cycle but my T levels came back in the 200’s and I got use to the delivery model ( injections ) and said at 46 I wanted to just cruise into TRT. I am not sure why they want me to cycle off only to start over. Also he said because this seems to help Ulcerative Colitis ( it certainly is not making anything worse ) I should not wait long to get back onto ‘therapy’.

So there is issue #1 I have with the outfit that bothers me, then there is #2 which is that when I preached the HCG model they talked about it being old school and they dont do that anymore ( which means they were using it as a ‘source’ of T not for gonadular maintenance ).

So they are otherwise great to work with but seem a bit out of touch when it comes to the state of the art.

In case I rambled too much, YES I intend to remain on TRT. Now if the HCG jump start completed and weeks later I was able to produce good T on my own then I might have to consider just doing cycles. However at 46 and after having taken 120 mg prednisone I am pretty sure my yarballs got wiped out and if not by that then perhaps by massive drinking for several years and if still not by those two then perhaps it was from that silly oral cycle I did that smashed my yarballs so painfully I tossed the bottle and quit after 30 days. The post-cycle was a disaster.

Oddly I am not feeling any pain this time. I was pretty high over december using 400mg of Deca and 400 mg test per week for a few weeks, been on just test 300mg per week ever since. In fact I might as well ‘taper’ down from here and ensure I have low estradiol, unless that foils the ‘jump start’ high-dose HCG PCT.

Thanks!

Went to the endo today Dr doesnt seem to think there is a problem as my free test is “within range”.

I asked him bout tesitng Estradiol he said that wouldnt have to do with anything as 2 other estrogens were checked and they were “within range”

ANDROGENS

Test 7.3* (8.3-29)

DHEA 6.4 umol/L (2.2-15)

Free Test 35.2 pmol/L (25.0 - 120.0)

SERUM HORMONE PROFILE

FSH 2iu/L range <7

LF 13th feb 1.6iu/L then on 22nd feb 1.7iu/L Range <17

OEST 145pmol/L (<150)

PROG 3nmol/L (0.9-3.9)

So it looks like the problem is in my brain “sigh”. He seemed to think effexor was the problem, but i argued with him saying treatign depression with a drug that causes a disorder such as this then leads way to depression and other major helath risk cancer/heart disease osteo ect isnt that absurd? . He didnt say much. I left with no answers and now am looking for an endo who has some brains.

If i started on some nolvadex would this help my situaiton somewhat? I have access to it and need to feel better then i do at the moment. I cant study or concentrate i sweat in class and im falling behind with my work. i need help

[quote]n00bs wrote:
Went to the endo today Dr doesnt seem to think there is a problem as my free test is “within range”.

I asked him bout tesitng Estradiol he said that wouldnt have to do with anything as 2 other estrogens were checked and they were “within range”

[/quote]

Your doctor is ignorant and lazy. I suggest you find a better doctor.

[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:

[quote]n00bs wrote:
Went to the endo today Dr doesnt seem to think there is a problem as my free test is “within range”.

I asked him bout tesitng Estradiol he said that wouldnt have to do with anything as 2 other estrogens were checked and they were “within range”

[/quote]

Your doctor is ignorant and lazy. I suggest you find a better doctor.[/quote]

This was the 2nd i have seen and he was “the specialist” endocrinologist.

TT is low. FT varies greatly and has a short half life. A lab catches one instantaneous level and one should not read much into that.

What is OEST?

By any measure, you cannot survive with any estrogen that is at the top of the range.

Progesterone is not an estrogen.

These docs specialize in stupidity.

Gee all I can do is watch with envy. My GP doc refused to conduct the labs I was willing to pay for so I asked an HRT clinic in florida to setup some blood work. I kept things on an even keel, I showed up and gave my blood two weeks ago.

Now that clinic has not answered phone calls in a week, the phone rings endlessly now instead of going to full vmail and after 10 more phone calls to try and get the blood results from ‘Labcorp’ I get the run around that I am not a physician, just a person with $95.00, blood and an SSN which results in nothing. So I keep at it and windup at a Dr associated with the clinic who says to call back tomorrow and I will get my magic E2 number. In the meantime I tried doubling my adex, libido seems markedly improved.

Anyway to cut these idiot middle men out of the loop and start getting my own E2 measurements monthly until I get it all dialed in right ?

Do LabCorp labs via LEF.org, the results get PDF’d to your inbox and mailed. Joint LEF.org to get better rates. There is an annual lab work sale coming up in May. I do all my labs that way and my doc uses the reports. All of my TRT and labs are out of pocket, and this is least cost for me.

If you know a LEF member; members can purchase lab work for anyone.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Do LabCorp labs via LEF.org, the results get PDF’d to your inbox and mailed. Joint LEF.org to get better rates. There is an annual lab work sale coming up in May. I do all my labs that way and my doc uses the reports. All of my TRT and labs are out of pocket, and this is least cost for me.

If you know a LEF member; members can purchase lab work for anyone.[/quote]

Thanks I will be switching to that.

Just got off the phone with the doc. This is UNBELIEVABLE. I am the post boy for LEF.org labs apparently. I made 10 phone calls yesterday, Dr was given permission to give me results and said to call back today for results.

I see it on my to do list but suppress my anticipation wondering how they will disappoint me this time. Dave answers the phone again we resume yesterdays conversion ONLY he says ‘yeah we have your lab results’. Ok I say ‘what are they’ pen in hand.

We mailed them to you.

Something was flagged as high.

I’ve been lurking here for sometime, decided it was time to chime in. I am 49 years old, work a average stress job, and am otherwise healthy. I recently went to my doctor, who specializes in mens’s issues, to have some blood work done because I suffer from very low libido. I don’t suffer any performance issues (although it takes longer to get it up). I have high energy, suffer no depression, and look forward to my workouts. I was shocked when I got the results back. I expected low T, but not this low. Here are my numbers (Quest Diagnostics) :

Total T 219 260 - 1000 ng/dL
Free T 30.1 50 - 210 pg/mL
Free T (%) 1.4 1.0 - 2.7 (%)
T3 123 97 - 219 ng/dL
Estradiol 5 10 - 50 pg/mL
LH 2.5 1.5 - 9.3 mIU/mL
FSH 5.1 1.6 - 8.0 mIU/mL
Prolactin 4.9 2.0 - 18.0 ng/mL
shbg 20 9 - 45 nmol/L
TSH 2.47 0.4 - 4.5 mIU/mL

My doctor stated that I am a candidate for TRT if I want it. He said he would first like me to try hCG to see if that would re-start my testes, before I go on TRT. To KSMAN and others, does this seem like the way to go.

I have not seen any good results with hGH monotherapy in your age group. Testes get old too. You can try it, and then if you need to do T, you should be able to add the T and keep the hCG.

Your T3 is not near the 158 mid point and your TSH is suggesting that you are bit hypo. Low can can lower thyroids and vise versa. Are you getting iodine from your salt? Do you get cold easily?

E2=5 seems bogus, please check the number.

Do you have low body and facial hair, perhaps taller? This can indicate that your T levels always were lower. With low T, you would then suffer a lot less than a guy at that level who was stockier and hairy.

Any drugs, Rx or OTC that might be endocrine disruptors? Any blows to the head in the time frame of when this might have started?

Start your own thread at some point. Based on current E2 numbers, you do not have problems from high estrogen and this sticky is not the right place to be. Get going on hCG or hCG+T and watch E2 levels after that. Do not do high dose hCG, if you need more T, add TRT. Read about hypothyroidism and see if you recognize any symptoms. Make sure that you have some iodine in your diet. Your teste can respond [restart does not seem to be a good choice of words] to hCG but your HPTA is not going to recover and allow for a drug free existence.

[quote]KSman wrote:
I have not seen any good results with hGH monotherapy in your age group. Testes get old too. You can try it, and then if you need to do T, you should be able to add the T and keep the hCG.

Your T3 is not near the 158 mid point and your TSH is suggesting that you are bit hypo. Low can can lower thyroids and vise versa. Are you getting iodine from your salt? Do you get cold easily?.[/quote]
I usually don’t use salt. I do find as i get older that the cold affects me more, so yes, I guess you could say that I get/feel the cold easily.

[quote]KSman wrote:
E2=5 seems bogus, please check the number.
[/quote]
I just checked and 5 is what the lab’s report says.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Do you have low body and facial hair, perhaps taller? This can indicate that your T levels always were lower. With low T, you would then suffer a lot less than a guy at that level who was stockier and hairy.
[/quote]
This is an interesting question. I had a full beard by the time I was 19, and had some (not alot) of hair on my arms and legs. At 19, I had no hair on my chest. Now I have alot of hair on my chest and some on my back. Yes, I am tall (6’2’').

[quote]KSman wrote:
Any drugs, Rx or OTC that might be endocrine disruptors? Any blows to the head in the time frame of when this might have started?
[/quote]
The only OTC that I take is Claritan-D or Zyrtec-D (anithistamines). I used to kickbox in my early 40’s and took some shots to the head (with head gear on), but I only did it for about 6 months.

I noticed this problem about 5 years ago, the same time that I was diagnosed with eczema.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Start your own thread at some point. Based on current E2 numbers, you do not have problems from high estrogen and this sticky is not the right place to be. Get going on hCG or hCG+T and watch E2 levels after that. Do not do high dose hCG, if you need more T, add TRT. Read about hypothyroidism and see if you recognize any symptoms. Make sure that you have some iodine in your diet. Your teste can respond [restart does not seem to be a good choice of words] to hCG but your HPTA is not going to recover and allow for a drug free existence.[/quote]
One other thing I have noticed is that my testicles have gotten smaller this past year.
When I go back to my doctor in 2 weeks, I will start a thread. Thanks for your time.

TRT = 300mg Test Enthanate per week ( OK, maybe its really a baby AAS cycle )

Serum Total T = 1200

Free T = 38.6 ( Range 6.8 - 21.5 )

Numbers just in over the phone

E2 = 41.9

I saw this as approx double the sweet spot E2 of 22 and suggested we double my .5 mg Arimidex per week and he said ‘no 34,35’ is where you want to be so only change it a little.

I don’t think this site will mind if I mention it since I heard hear first. You can purchase anastrozole over the counter as a reasurch compound. A lot of guys do it just so they can meter their dose by the drop and not the half or quarter pill. I’m might need to go to something beteen .5 and 1 mg and I’m not looking forward to trying to quarter these little 1 mg tablets.

That brings up a good question regarding which supplier provided a resonably thin liquidex with a dropper for dosing. The stuff I have is really thick. I suspose I could thin it down but I really don’t want to get into a chemistry project.