the tree in the forest is not a problem. It’s a koan.
Actually, there is someone to perceive order right now.
And it’s more than enough.
One truth is enough.
Even if its veracity last only 1 second.
As long as it’s a truth at one point in time, it is universal, absolute, eternal.
As Spinoza said : “we feel and know by experience that we are eternal”
He wasn’t speaking about an intuitive concept of the “survival of the soul”.
He was speaking about our experience of truth.
I know it’s a friggin’ koan.
Our experience of truth is not eternal, and even if there is an objective, all-encompassing truth, why are there so many different versions of it?
God and then the universe is putting the cart in front of the horse. At best, god is a deduction, but have we eliminated all that is possible to arrive at the impossible no matter how improbable?
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< By logic you mean laws of physics? Why is the universe ordered the way it is? >>>[/quote]No. I do not mean that. What I do mean is why are YOU ordered the way you are? Why is it that no matter how much or how many ways you try, you just cannot live a life of logical uncertainty even while you are preaching to me the gospel of agnostic skepticism? YOU live like ME. And everyone else. The alleged scientific method itself lives on the foundation of logical certainty even while it tries to jam probability down our throats. >>>[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Do you realise that the universe is in constant flux and that, over the eons, the universe will become uninhabitable to life as we know it? >>.[/quote]I realize that Jesus Christ will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trumpet of God and the voice of the archangel long before that could ever be a possibility.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< In my view, the universe is not the way it is because god made it right for us; we are the way we are because the universe is the way it is. >>>[/quote]Never thought about this. Irrelevant to my view which was designed for which or both or neither, but I would be initially inclined to say that God designed our environment first. So to speak.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< We look for meaning and purpose and find nothing but indifference. You make it palatable by believing in a higher purpose and divine intervention. >>>[/quote]I don’t search for anything. I cannot avoid God’s eternally just and holy purpose in everything. A galaxy or a snowflake. A guy I call Ephrem on an internet forum or billions of people I’ll never know. Everything and everyone bows to my Father’s purpose whether they intentionally glorify Him with high praise or unintentionally glorify Him with their scorn. His purpose stands.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< This is where it breaks down for me. I simply cannot accept this one simple act: believing in that one unproven assumption. >>.[/quote]You are doing that right now Ephrem. You’ve simply exalted your own unprovable ideas in the place of God. We are finite and contingent. Based on us NOTHING can be proven. That’s why what I believe is not based on us.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< We best leave it at this T, it simply can’t go any further.[/quote]I think it can, but even if I could, forcing you would do no good. You’re the first person God gave me a burden for here Ephrem. You’re always in my prayers.
I’m fascinated by the human condition, not logical uncertainty. That’s how I’m ordered. What that is the way it is I don’t know. Probably upbringing and cultural influences.
Anymore
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< if there is an objective, all-encompassing truth, why are there so many different versions of it? >>[/quote]There aren’t. There are only two with different costumes for the same false one. (I can here you already with this)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< god is a deduction, >>>[/quote]Deduction is wholly inapplicable to the God I worship. He is Himself the designer and provider of deduction and as such is not in any way subject to it. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< but have we eliminated all that is possible to arrive at the impossible no matter how improbable?[/quote]That was pretty good there Ephrem. I had to read that three or four times. I say we are conceived, born, live and die in utter syllogistic mathematical pragmatic certainty. Christian or not, but only Christians find out why. Kamui is sitting on God’s lap as I type this yet he still will not “see” Him. He is either the very closest or the very furthest away from new life depending on which way I tilt my head. Only God knows.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< I’m fascinated by the human condition, not logical uncertainty. That’s how I’m ordered. >>>[/quote]That’s four stories up from the foundation Ephrem.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Anymore >>>[/quote]Very stylish and I suppose I fell into that one, but you hurt my feelings because you were never payin attention when I was talkin =[ .(I know I talk quite a bit) I said TO YOU on 07-05-2010 at 11:54 AM:[quote]This does not in any way mean that I reject the relentless pursuit of knowledge. Quite the contrary. When ones sees all of existence as the unavoidable revelation of the wisdom and power of God, knowledge is all the sweeter. People think Christians hide from science in fear they may find something to damage their faith. Not me. I jump in with both feet, whoooopeeee!!! Splash it all over myself. It enhances the focus on just how little I deserve the loving kindness of an uncreated Being, and one that I have fatally offended, who can produce such wonders by fiat command.
Not that I can explain everything. I don’t need to. He is explanation enough. I must confess though that I find unmistakable evidence for the truth of fallen mankind in observing the world of science. It took the world’s most powerful supercomputers a number of years to decode the human genome running calculations 24/7. Scientists are then heralded as representing the pinnacle of reason, logic and erudition for declaring this to have happened by accident. The genome itself and by extension the equipment required to open it’s secrets, but I am an anachronistic moron for believing that somebody ultimately designed both.[/quote]to which you replied "…thanks for your explanations Trib, i appreciate it… ". =] http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/misconceptions_of_christianity;jsessionid=733846AAD761D0231248D2BA29749FE9-hf.hydra?id=3923963&pageNo=3 I knew you weren’t payin attention LOL!
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
It’s easy to go on in circles like this T, but if you believe that 2+2=4 is enough reason to believe in the god of Abraham then by all means, be my guest.
[/quote]
truth exists independent of someones opinion. Let me state right now, that the son of the God of Abraham came as proof. Jesus said “I AM” not “I think I am”. When people wanted proof he was God, he gave it to them [raising the dead, healing, his epic sermons etc]. However, he was was still rejected. Look, God came down as a sacrifice and as proof. If he did the same today [which he will] people still wont accept it. man is so proud, that he judges proof to his own accord. to put it simply, christ and faith are not opinions, they are higher forms of truth than scientific knowledge. Positivism and scientific knowledge are only a deductive means of validating truth. You cannot do a calculus problem using arithmetic. Likewise, you cannot solve or understand God exclusively with something like logic. To know God, you have to equip yourself with wisdom [which is not the same as secular reason or logic]. Seek and you’ll find. If you seek to not find God, then you will not find God. [/quote]
Thank you for your time and effort to write this out, but as I said to Tiribulus, I’m unable to make that leap of faith.
[/quote]
You don’t need to leap. You need to take the inverse route to God. God revealed snippet of himself to Abraham. Them he showed himself through Christ. Then he demonstrated his fruits through the Holy Spirit. So one route of finding God is finding the God above (Father), then seeing God among (Christ), then seeing the the God within (Holy Spirit). You need to introspect and see God within you. When you do this, you will see Christ in others among you. Then you will be revealed God the Father above you. Contemplate like a Buddhist if you have to, then you will realize you are a Child of God.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
It’s easy to go on in circles like this T, but if you believe that 2+2=4 is enough reason to believe in the god of Abraham then by all means, be my guest.
[/quote]
truth exists independent of someones opinion. Let me state right now, that the son of the God of Abraham came as proof. Jesus said “I AM” not “I think I am”. When people wanted proof he was God, he gave it to them [raising the dead, healing, his epic sermons etc]. However, he was was still rejected. Look, God came down as a sacrifice and as proof. If he did the same today [which he will] people still wont accept it. man is so proud, that he judges proof to his own accord. to put it simply, christ and faith are not opinions, they are higher forms of truth than scientific knowledge. Positivism and scientific knowledge are only a deductive means of validating truth. You cannot do a calculus problem using arithmetic. Likewise, you cannot solve or understand God exclusively with something like logic. To know God, you have to equip yourself with wisdom [which is not the same as secular reason or logic]. Seek and you’ll find. If you seek to not find God, then you will not find God. [/quote]
Thank you for your time and effort to write this out, but as I said to Tiribulus, I’m unable to make that leap of faith.
[/quote]
You don’t need to leap. You need to take the inverse route to God. God revealed snippet of himself to Abraham. Them he showed himself through Christ. Then he demonstrated his fruits through the Holy Spirit. So one route of finding God is finding the God above (Father), then seeing God among (Christ), then seeing the the God within (Holy Spirit). You need to introspect and see God within you. When you do this, you will see Christ in others among you. Then you will be revealed God the Father above you. Contemplate like a Buddhist if you have to, then you will realize you are a Child of God.[/quote]
The antropomorphic god of Abraham is something I’ll never be able to believe in.
There are far too many problems associated with that idea for me to just forget about them and start believing.
When I look within I find serene silence that can only be when I’m not there.
God is nowhere to be found.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< if there is an objective, all-encompassing truth, why are there so many different versions of it? >>[/quote]There aren’t. There are only two with different costumes for the same false one. (I can here you already with this)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< god is a deduction, >>>[/quote]Deduction is wholly inapplicable to the God I worship. He is Himself the designer and provider of deduction and as such is not in any way subject to it. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< but have we eliminated all that is possible to arrive at the impossible no matter how improbable?[/quote]That was pretty good there Ephrem. I had to read that three or four times. I say we are conceived, born, live and die in utter syllogistic mathematical pragmatic certainty. Christian or not, but only Christians find out why. Kamui is sitting on God’s lap as I type this yet he still will not “see” Him. He is either the very closest or the very furthest away from new life depending on which way I tilt my head. Only God knows.
[/quote]
It’s a butchered quote from Sherlock Holmes: “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
I’ll leave you to tend to those who find this interesting T, until next time.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< When I look within <<<>>> God is nowhere to be found >>>[/quote]Despite what our new very liberal friend here says, you are right about this. That can change too. I pray it does. Until next time as you say.
Why will I not “see” Him, in your opinion ?
What exactly prevent me to see Him ?
Even if only God knows, i’m curious to hear your interpretation.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
It’s easy to go on in circles like this T, but if you believe that 2+2=4 is enough reason to believe in the god of Abraham then by all means, be my guest.
[/quote]
truth exists independent of someones opinion. Let me state right now, that the son of the God of Abraham came as proof. Jesus said “I AM” not “I think I am”. When people wanted proof he was God, he gave it to them [raising the dead, healing, his epic sermons etc]. However, he was was still rejected. Look, God came down as a sacrifice and as proof. If he did the same today [which he will] people still wont accept it. man is so proud, that he judges proof to his own accord. to put it simply, christ and faith are not opinions, they are higher forms of truth than scientific knowledge. Positivism and scientific knowledge are only a deductive means of validating truth. You cannot do a calculus problem using arithmetic. Likewise, you cannot solve or understand God exclusively with something like logic. To know God, you have to equip yourself with wisdom [which is not the same as secular reason or logic]. Seek and you’ll find. If you seek to not find God, then you will not find God. [/quote]
Thank you for your time and effort to write this out, but as I said to Tiribulus, I’m unable to make that leap of faith.
[/quote]
You don’t need to leap. You need to take the inverse route to God. God revealed snippet of himself to Abraham. Them he showed himself through Christ. Then he demonstrated his fruits through the Holy Spirit. So one route of finding God is finding the God above (Father), then seeing God among (Christ), then seeing the the God within (Holy Spirit). You need to introspect and see God within you. When you do this, you will see Christ in others among you. Then you will be revealed God the Father above you. Contemplate like a Buddhist if you have to, then you will realize you are a Child of God.[/quote]
The antropomorphic god of Abraham is something I’ll never be able to believe in.
There are far too many problems associated with that idea for me to just forget about them and start believing.
When I look within I find serene silence that can only be when I’m not there.
God is nowhere to be found.
[/quote]
God is love. The scriptures are compiled to represent two aspects of God: His divinity and his humanity. The OT emphasizes his divinity. This is why he seems so cold and demands such a high standard. He appears as though we cannot relate to him. That’s because in a sense, relating to his divinity is something foreign to us. The NT emphasizes his humanity. This is why it makes so much sense to us. Make no mistake though, when he comes back, it will be his divinity that shows.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< When I look within <<<>>> God is nowhere to be found >>>[/quote]Despite what our new very liberal friend here says, you are right about this. That can change too. I pray it does. Until next time as you say.
[/quote]
I oppose abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, sex education. Hardly liberal.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< When I look within <<<>>> God is nowhere to be found >>>[/quote]Despite what our new very liberal friend here says, you are right about this. That can change too. I pray it does. Until next time as you say.
[/quote]
I oppose abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, sex education. Hardly liberal.[/quote]
Points for honesty.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< When I look within <<<>>> God is nowhere to be found >>>[/quote]Despite what our new very liberal friend here says, you are right about this. That can change too. I pray it does. Until next time as you say.
[/quote]I oppose abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, sex education. Hardly liberal.[/quote]Theologically liberal, like your church, which is under the spell of all things, of 20th century protestant liberalism. Particularly the Germans.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:<<< Actually, the problem is no to find it. It’s to accept it.
Tiribulus is right on this one too.[/quote]I knew it. You DO get it. This is not a poo pooable matter of irrelevant mental masturbation. It IS the key to everything. The very bedrock of all human thought. [quote]kamui wrote:<<< The truinity of the christian God is indeed a solution to the problem of the one and the many. I will concede this. >>>[/quote]Oh my Lord, this is gonna be good =] I don’t know how to say this any other way, but right now you and I are the only two who’ve touched this thread who have any idea what each other is talkin about. I’m asking two things very honestly. Do you feel that my exposition has been clear enough? And, do you agree that as far as you and I do agree, what we agree on is actually quite simple once understood? [quote]kamui wrote:<<< But this solution is a mystery. >>>[/quote]Yes it is. As any solution would be by definition.[quote]kamui wrote:<<< It’s not a problem in itself (after all, as you noted, we have to accept the circularity). >>>[/quote]Yep, that’s what I just said in agreement. Mystery and circularity are in this case two ways of saying the same thing.[quote]kamui wrote:<<< But it’s not intrinsically better than another (equally mysterious) solution. [/quote]Elder Forlife, Squating_Bear and Cortes. I am compelled by honor to report that this Frenchman has just become the solitary non Christian champion in this arena in my opinion. Monsieur Kamui here has done his cerebral homework and is taking me to the only stalemate possible with the epistemology I started this thread to advance.
I always go over every objection to every position I hold, arguing them with myself as if I already believed those objections to see if I can convince myself that they are valid. If I can defeat one of my positions with an objection then I adopt the position corresponding to the objections. I NEVER enter a public debate unless I have already settled every objection I could think of ahead of time. I’m not the smartest guy ever born, but I’m good at this.
I have been over dozens of attempted species of attack upon the transcendental, reformation epistemology so brilliantly codified by Dr. Van Til and the very one I believe Kamui is about to propose is the one and only stalemate possible as far as I have been able to discern. NOT a refutation, but a possible stalemate. Am I right Kamui?
Alright. Enough playin coy huh?. =] Please introduce us to your alternative to the triune God who’s universal, comprehensive all governing exceptionless decree is the bedrock of all human thought and existence.
[/quote]
I’m here, reading and learning. This thread has finally started moving in the direction I hoped it would and I am very interested in seeing where it does go from here. Very happy to see kamui take up this mantle.
For the record, I agree, too, with everything Tirib has put forth regarding epistemology in this thread so far. You and I have pretty much always been on the same page with this. It’s the next step to the existence or possibility of free-will where we part ways.
Anyway, I intend to keep my mouth shut and learn for a bit here while you two (and maybe a few others) lay it out. [/quote]
Huh. I’ve been crucified for wanting to keep my mouth shut both here and in the last thread I made the mistake of responding to. Incidentally, I did also many times say that “keeping my mouth shut and reading” was how I learned.
Personally it seems like a good idea to me Cortes.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:<<< Huh. I’ve been crucified for wanting to keep my mouth shut both here and in the last thread I made the mistake of responding to. Incidentally, I did also many times say that “keeping my mouth shut and reading” was how I learned.
Personally it seems like a good idea to me Cortes.
[/quote]Cortes has been of the most substantive and engaging conversationalists I’ve encountered in these forums. Our dialog on these topics goes back well over a year. We have had meaty discourse on many occasions. He makes no secret of his devout Catholicism much to my horror and dismay.
You have been “crucified” by no one. Whether you are one of the Lord’s or not is not my call. You may be one of His elect. All I know is what I see and hear which is a pattern of liberal compromise which is KILLING the power of the church in the earth. You don’t even see it man.
You recommend a flaming godless heretic like Debbie Blue as if anything other than a lesson in how to blasphemously mangle the Word of God could be gleaned from such an apostate character. Then you ask me what’s wrong with women in senior leadership? After telling me you believe in what amounts to the Catholic doctrine of “invincible ignorance”?
My attacks on your compromise are biblical and I stand by them at least in substance while I welcome your contribution to this thread. Or any thread. God will not cry if we argue. That’s another modernism that I once sorta embraced myself. I have been taking my attitude to the Lord BTW. A lot of people are REALLY mad at me lately. To the degree that it’s my fault. I wanna know and I wanna change it, but I WILL NOT EVER shrink from defending His truth. Has it crossed your mind that I may actually have a point with you? At all? I am not hoping for more opportunity to clash when I say I welcome your participation.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< When I look within <<<>>> God is nowhere to be found >>>[/quote]Despite what our new very liberal friend here says, you are right about this. That can change too. I pray it does. Until next time as you say.
[/quote]I oppose abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, sex education. Hardly liberal.[/quote]Theologically liberal, like your church, which is under the spell of all things, of 20th century protestant liberalism. Particularly the Germans.
[/quote]
I don’t see how you as a well reasoned protestant can be in the position to judge the catholic church. This is a church can can trace all of their popes back to St. Peter, therefore retaining the original teachings. I will agree with Catholic Church has become more theologically liberal but this is a good thing. Just 100 years ago it would have declared you anathema, and anyone else who isn’t catholic. Remember, the Church existed for over a thousand years before it even had an east/west schism, and nearly 1500 years before the protestant reformation. So it would seem silly to me that any protestant would argue with the teachings that have remained the same since its beginning. If you research how early christian communities in the first and second century worshiped, it was the same as a catholic mass. Refer to the Didache, a second century Manuel if you won’t believe me.
“can can trace all of their popes back to St. Peter”
Are you including the female pope in this line?
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
“can can trace all of their popes back to St. Peter”
Are you including the female pope in this line?[/quote]
Perhaps you need to be more specific. I don’t know what you’re talking about.