[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< I have absolutely no doubt that, if you come to believe that your estimation was incorrect, you would admit it. Your faith is genuine and evident, the kind that results in personal transformation, which includes the desire to repent when necessary (and for all of us, it is so often necessary - and that’s the understatement of the year, I know). >>>[/quote]I would indeed and yes repentance is quite regular over here.[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< As you admitted, my questions are not entirely off topic, >>>[/quote]My view is that at this stage of redemptive history the ecosystem is very long established and your points are fish. It would however require some significant dialog on my lead to demonstrate why and I suspect you’re not willing to follow. I say that because this:[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< but I do admit my culpability for hijacking here. Sorry about that. Carry on![/quote]sounds like you’re leaving already. What’s with this drive by posting here bub?
Indeed.
[quote] You view “philosophy” as in one way a terrible thing that robs one of the bliss of ignorance if pursued long enough and with enough competence. It is to YOU however a necessary addiction that you hate to love.
You consider me to be someone who does it well, but the Christian package is just that. A package =[ . An internally consistent system, maybe the first Christian flavored one you’ve seen that is, that I’ve somewhat impressively constructed to explain the same foundational conundrums of logic that you have also somewhat impressively explained with alternatives that you like better.[/quote]
Well, it’s not really about what i like or don’t like, but it’s close.
On a side note, i have seen a few very competent christian philosophers before, but they were catholics.
[quote]
Bottom line? You and I are the same person with a different interface on the same operating system. Correct me if I’m wrong.[/quote]
It’s probably true, to an extent.
But our answers to the same foundational conundrums of logic are not only different, they are actually opposite.
In last analysis, there is only two kind of answers to these conundrums : immanence and transcendance.
Most people, even amongst philosophical minds, never really clarify their own foundations, and therefore “mix” the two.
We do not.
I affirm the former, you believe in the latter.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“You’re wrong about me too Silee. On one very significant level of this debate? I claim to know, myself, much less than you claim to know. There’s no need for all this hostility. Truly, I have none for you.”
Tribulus ok I am not in a position to know you, I only know what you type and of course you’re much more than that. In the spirit of charity and given that I don’t want to cause you any distress( but if one feels anger to express it constructively rather than aggressively). I want you to feel this is a place where we can come and ask or state things and not incur any hostility. I hope my sentence structure wasn’t so tortured, LOL, so that you could understand my point.
Alright, I’ve looked up definitions for both immanence and transcedance and briefly look at a couple or so philosphies on the two and here’s what I have.
Immanence and transcendance is present in Christianity because there is both God the Father and the Christ for transcendance. And holy spirit for immanence.
Because immanence is the spiritutual world that permeated through and is a part of the material world and transcendance is outside the material worlds.
With you Kamui, why do you say you only believe in immanence. How does that work with the creation of the material world. Don’t you have to have a transcendent being to put that in motion?
I went into this thread expecting to learn more about the world beyond, the world I see, and myself, but now I feel more lost and confused than ever lol.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I went into this thread expecting to learn more about the world beyond, the world I see, and myself, but now I feel more lost and confused than ever lol.[/quote]
I just wanted to comment on the last thing you said… Concerning being lost and confused. That is a good thing cause you’re questioning and questioning opens us up to doubt which ( for me) leads to more investigation and study and which given enough of study leads to new positions, which in turn, maybe questioned when you feel uneasy about them. I think this is the process of philosophy, as a critical enterprise. Should I have said this is the process of the critical enterprise which philosophy takes? no hedge in the latter. But yeah philosophy is when things we take for granted don’t work for us any more, and we seek to establish a new comfort.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I went into this thread expecting to learn more about the world beyond, the world I see, and myself, but now I feel more lost and confused than ever lol.[/quote]Nah, you’re jist in one them there dark spots between street lights. I’m at work. Only have a minute.
[quote]silee wrote:<<< Tribulus ok I am not in a position to know you, I only know what you type and of course you’re much more than that. In the spirit of charity and given that I don’t want to cause you any distress( but if one feels anger to express it constructively rather than aggressively). I want you to feel this is a place where we can come and ask or state things and not incur any hostility. I hope my sentence structure wasn’t so tortured, LOL, so that you could understand my point. [/quote]No trouble man. I WANT people to participate in this thread. I will be honest with them though. And I DO have to watch my attitude.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I went into this thread expecting to learn more about the world beyond, the world I see, and myself, but now I feel more lost and confused than ever lol.[/quote]Nah, you’re jist in one them there dark spots between street lights. I’m at work. Only have a minute.
[/quote]
Now I just have to find the right light and not a Luciferian light or as Kamui once put it, a Promethean light.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I went into this thread expecting to learn more about the world beyond, the world I see, and myself, but now I feel more lost and confused than ever lol.[/quote]Nah, you’re jist in one them there dark spots between street lights. I’m at work. Only have a minute.
[/quote]
Now I just have to find the right light and not a Luciferian light or as Kamui once put it, a Promethean light.
[/quote]John 8:12[quote]Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Aristotle’s >>>[/quote]And there he is. I’ve been bitin my lip all this time, but he finally went n said the A word. The pagan Greeks, clearly renounced by the Apostle in the first chapter of his first epistle to the church of God which was at Corinth. St Thomas’s grievous marriage with the world.
[/quote]Please get out if you’re not going to bring anything of substance to the thread. You have still not proven this in any context since you’ve first stated it.[/quote]You hurt my feelings with this Chris. =[ I would never talk to you this way. I think you liked it better when I was snarky n demeaning to you. You don’t think a Christian claiming Aristotle as “The ACTUAL Key to Everything” and my demonstration of his utter renunciation and rejection by Paul is not substantive? REALLY? >>>—> Aristotle (b.384 BC) is one of the most important founding figures in Western philosophy. Aristotle - Wikipedia The Apostle Paul in his first epistle to the Greek saints at Corinth. Chapter 1 (ESV) [quote]18-For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19-For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20-Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22-For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23-but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24-but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25-For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26-For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27-But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28-God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29-so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30-And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31-so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” [/quote]Chapter 2[quote]1-And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2-For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3-And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4-and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5-that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6-Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7-But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8-None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9-But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”?
10-these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11-For who knows a person?s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12-Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13-And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14-The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15-The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16-“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.[/quote] I am without the proper facility to express the utter self manipulation one is required to employ to the end of escaping ARISTOTLE, as among those whom the mighty apostle is here clearly denouncing as foolish, worldly, arrogant and weak. In verse 19 of Chapter 1 he quotes directly from the 29th of the prophet Isaiah. The context to which Paul likens these self deluded “wise and discerning” Greeks is most disastrously unflattering to say the very least.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am without the proper facility to express the utter self manipulation one is required to employ to the end of escaping ARISTOTLE, as among those whom the mighty apostle is here clearly denouncing as foolish, worldly, arrogant and weak. In verse 19 of Chapter 1 he quotes directly from the 29th of the prophet Isaiah. The context to which Paul likens these self deluded “wise and discerning” Greeks is most disastrously unflattering to say the very least. [/quote]
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise: Paul quotes Isaiah here, Is 29:14.
Isaiah predicts the destruction of every form of human wisdom that asserts itself AGAINST the wisdom of God. The warning was first given to the Israeli leaders who didn’t listen to the prophets and instead listened to the politicians. Lesson: don’t prize the rational wisdom of men over the revealed wisdom of the Gospel. I and Aquinas have both said that philosophy is the handmaiden of theology.
He taunts the intellectual elite of the ancient world. He taunts those who put man’s wisdom against God’s: Greek philosophers, Jewish experts, and public speakers.
In reference to wisdom of the world, Dr. Hahn made this succinct when he wrote, “relies on these traditions to make a sharp contrast between the wisdom that comes from God and the philosophical wisdom of men celebrated by the Greeks. For the apostle, Jesus Christ is the divine Wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24) that is given to believers through the inpouring of the Spirit (1 Cor 1:30; 2:7-13; Eph 1:17; Col 2:3). As such, it cannot be equated with the ingenuity of philosophers and thinkers” the Catholic Church declared that philosophy is below the Sacred Science.
Yes, amen. I believe that verse 100% and everything else in the Bible. As Bishop Olmsted said of his dear friend, a recent convert, that he had been waiting on top of a tall mountain for his friend, who took his whole life to reach the top to realized that the theologians had been standing there the whole time.
“did not come” I don’t get what you’re trying to get at here.
Even the most dynamic proclamations of the gospel remain ineffective unless the Spirit moves the minds and hearts of the listeners to accept it (Phil 1:29). Paul implies that his own modest speaking ability was a weakness that enabled God’s power to work more perfectly through him (2 Cor 12:9). The idea running throughout this passage is that God saves the world through what is foolish and weak so that he alone can be praised for the result (1 Cor 1:21-29).
Now, that I addressed your concern. What does this have to do with metaphysics?
Like I told Sloth the day he put me on ignore. You are so much better in the Lord than that Church will allow you to be. Ya know how I know you don’t buy this feeble tortured rationalization you just attempted to pass to me as an escape from the clear condemnation of Thomas’s hero by Paul? Because now you’re trying to portray metaphysics as the focus and deemphasize Aristotle. Even the unbelievers will see this.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Like I told Sloth the day he put me on ignore. You are so much better in the Lord than that Church will allow you to be. Ya know how I know you don’t buy this feeble tortured rationalization you just attempted to pass to me as an escape from the clear condemnation of Thomas’s hero by Paul? Because now you’re trying to portray metaphysics as the focus and deemphasize Aristotle. Even the unbelievers will see this. [/quote]
Honestly, I’m not well ready enough to know exactly what the heck ya’ll are talking about lol. Especially when it comes to scripture and theology. And I’m totally lost as to what the link is to epistemology.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< to scripture <<<>>> theology <<<>>> epistemology <<<<>>> philosophy as whole(my addition)[/quote]In my paradigm these are all vital components in a single systematic whole of faith, logic and practice in that order. Kamui REALLY understands that. In the Catholic paradigm there is no explicitly Christian philosophy so any source they see as useful and complimentary to revelation can be integrated into their system. I utterly reject that as does the apostle by his plainly stated language to the saints at Corinth. It is both unbiblical and illogical which to me are two sides of the same coin.
In my pagan eyes, there is an explicitly christian philosophy.
If anything because a whole epistemology and a whole ontology are implied by this verse alone :
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.
But on the other hand, i don’t think that the Catholic paradigm deny this.
[quote]kamui wrote:
In my pagan eyes, there is an explicitly christian philosophy.
If anything because a whole epistemology and a whole ontology are implied by this verse alone :
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.
But on the other hand, i don’t think that the Catholic paradigm deny this.
[/quote]Dearest Christopher said (03-21-2012, 02:09 AM) [quote]The Catholic Church has no philosophy to speak of. So, we use the best one man has come up with to explain it to modern man, after all philosophy is the handmaiden of theology.[/quote] http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/roots_of_human_morality?id=5079078&pageNo=30
You are EXACTLY right again Kamui. There IS everything I’ve ever said here implied in that verse alone. Our affinity lies in the fact that despite our very basic differences we are both systematic thinkers. You are able to (I would say compelled to) extrapolate whole inescapably interrelated trains of thought from a single erupting pregnant concept as the first verse of John’s gospel most assuredly IS.
“In the beginning God…” Those four words are absolutely EVERYTHING I’m about.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Like I told Sloth the day he put me on ignore. You are so much better in the Lord than that Church will allow you to be. Ya know how I know you don’t buy this feeble tortured rationalization you just attempted to pass to me as an escape from the clear condemnation of Thomas’s hero by Paul? Because now you’re trying to portray metaphysics as the focus and deemphasize Aristotle. Even the unbelievers will see this. [/quote]
What does this have to do with the Church believing that Sacred Science is higher than philosophy? 
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I utterly reject that as does the apostle by his plainly stated language to the saints at Corinth.
[/quote]
I just gave a proof this statement is incorrect. So far you’ve just restated and gave a non-sequitor of some kind.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
In my pagan eyes, there is an explicitly christian philosophy.
If anything because a whole epistemology and a whole ontology are implied by this verse alone :
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.
But on the other hand, i don’t think that the Catholic paradigm deny this.
[/quote]Dearest Christopher said (03-21-2012, 02:09 AM) [quote]The Catholic Church has no philosophy to speak of. So, we use the best one man has come up with to explain it to modern man, after all philosophy is the handmaiden of theology.[/quote] http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/roots_of_human_morality?id=5079078&pageNo=30
You are EXACTLY right again Kamui. There IS everything I’ve ever said here implied in that verse alone. Our affinity lies in the fact that despite our very basic differences we are both systematic thinkers. You are able to (I would say compelled to) extrapolate whole inescapably interrelated trains of thought from a single erupting pregnant concept as the first verse of John’s gospel most assuredly IS.
“In the beginning God…” Those four words are absolutely EVERYTHING I’m about.
[/quote]
Kamui is a smart guy, but I really think you should take what the Catholic Church believes from a primary source…say the Catechism. But, please continue to get your information from a secondary source.
We are not communicating Christopher. No offense, honest, but we aren’t. Maybe it’s my fault. I have stuff I HAVE to do now so hopefully Kamui or somebody else can shed more light for the time being.