[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< …why do persons put a divide between faith and reason that does not exist, I am not sure. Just as much as I don’t understand why modern man insists, no demands, that philosophy has to go against common sense, [/quote]I do neither and am no fan of Kierkegaard. Or captain dialectic Hegel either. Kant was one of Van Til’s favorite targets. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Not even Augustine in his emphasis on faith put a divide between the two, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.”[/quote]If only that towering colossus Augustine would have fully grasped how close he was to the truth there epistemologically speaking. With properly defined terms I could embrace that quote with both arms Chris. There is no understanding of absolutely anything apart from the living God and once that’s conciously embraced EVERY fact there is testifies of His majesty.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
There is no understanding of absolutely anything apart from the living God and once that’s conciously embraced EVERY fact there is testifies of His majesty.
[/quote]
Of course, because we wouldn’t exist. What is your point?
Or, are you saying that we can’t know anything without having the Christian faith? Yes, every fact testifies of his majesty, he is the creator of everything, even our free will and our free will testifies to a God. That is called final causality.
Edit: Spelling error.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
There is no understanding of absolutely anything apart from the living God and once that’s conciously embraced EVERY fact there is testifies of His majesty.
[/quote]
Of course, because we wouldn’t exist. What is your point?
Or, are you saying that we can’t know anything without having the Christian faith? Yes, every fact testifies of his majesty, he is the creator of everything, even our free will and our free will testifies to a God. That is called final casualty. [/quote]Your getting closer Chris. A bit anyway. I’ll be back later. I Hope you’re up late tonight. I actually DON’T have to be at the church at 7 am tomorrow =]
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[/quote]
What faith and reason have in common is the starting point, “I don’t know”, from which we start our journey.
This is the only thing they have in common, but to call faith and reason equal because of this is a fallacy.
People of faith say, “We know this to be true, because we believe this to be true and have faith that it is true.”
People of reason say, “We don’t know why, but we can know how.”
The difference between faith and reason is fundamental, not for their starting points but because of the conclusions.
[quote]ephrem wrote:What faith and reason have in common is the starting point, “I don’t know”, from which we start our journey.
This is the only thing they have in common, but to call faith and reason equal because of this is a fallacy.
People of faith say, “We know this to be true, because we believe this to be true and have faith that it is true.”
People of reason say, “We don’t know why, but we can know how.”
The difference between faith and reason is fundamental, not for their starting points but because of the conclusions.
[/quote]Everybody has two natures Ephrem. For lack of a better way of putting it. A new one and an old one. For you, being his child, you’ve inherited both from father Adam. The first being what he was before he sinned. The perfect yet finite image and likeness of a certain and uncontingent God. He walked the garden in blissful derivative dependence upon his designer and creator. All was well. This first nature is the source of your pragmatic certainty. You KNOW 2+2 is 4. You think every thought and take every breath as if this were true. You can’t help it. That first foundational defining nature dictates that you cannot exist in any other state.
You also have a second nature. A new man degenerated from that first man into a sort of spiritual zombie. Looks like you, sounds like you. It IS you. Except that spiritually speaking? That man is dead to the God who is the source of his existence and life. He CANNOT avoid this creator because he sees Him EVERYwhere in EVERYthing, but most especially in that first man that he also still is. Being dead to Him in that new man you are unable to see the creator aright. He offends and angers you because you hate Him and you hate being dependent upon Him still. The new man is His enemy. The old man makes you responsible to Him. The new one makes you unable to comply.
I also have two natures. An old one that is just like your new one. And a new one that is resurrected and recreated in Christ. I have been rescued from my zombie like state by the creator Himself. I now KNOW why I KNOW. And why you KNOW. I have been plugged back into the source of our life. The pragmatic certainty in which we all unavoidably live and the objective certainty for which we all unavoidably long have once again joined hands at last. Even while there’s so much that I cannot directly understand on my own. In other words, autonomously if you will. EVERYTHING now makes sense. He has made me live. I worship and adore Him for that.
I descend from the same family of zombies you do Ephrem. I am in no position to look down on you. When Jesus stepped forth from that grave? He brought me with Him. He knew me before ever I was. I was given to Him by the Father. I have eternal life. I cannot be lost. He WILL raise me on the last day. He promised. I long… from the depths of my heart to be an instrument of His glory and to see others have the life I have. Every word you will ever see on your screen from me is motivated by that.
So many words, so little substance.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[/quote]
Well yes, if your basing your reasons on a “house of cards” or another questionable set of reasons that don’t hold up then I can see your point about faith/reason. My understanding of faith is " you believe without reasons to support your belief". “why do you believe in the Trinity? what reasons do you have? Well, Christ said so.” Is that a good reason? or" I believe that I could have been a famous nuclear scientist and that I am a great thinker" What’s your reason? well I was always good in math and science. In other words believing something doesn’t make it so. The thing about faith, believing without being able to prove it in some sense, is that faith can align ones life, give it meaning it would otherwise lack and therefore has life affirming features.
Besides I am not use who said it, could have been Simon Weil, if you know that there is a God and you love God what good is that, its much more impressive if you love God without knowing that God exist.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
What faith and reason have in common is the starting point, “I don’t know”, from which we start our journey.
This is the only thing they have in common, but to call faith and reason equal because of this is a fallacy.[/quote]
Yes, faith is of a higher order than reason.
[quote]People of faith say, “We know this to be true, because we believe this to be true and have faith that it is true.”
People of reason say, “We don’t know why, but we can know how.”
The difference between faith and reason is fundamental, not for their starting points but because of the conclusions.
[/quote]
Is there People of Faith and Reason?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I don’t find the notion of common sense problematic, seems very simple.[/quote]
There is always a problem with common sense. All common sense is to me is an unquestioning stance towards what is being said. As soon as someone questions what we take for granted we are engaged in a form of critical thinking about things. We aren’t trying to reinvent the wheel about most things but there are aspects of life, politics, morality, philosophy that calls for non-common sense. Common sense is a form of ideology which says that the way things are is the way they should be.
[quote]silee wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[/quote]
Well yes, if your basing your reasons on a “house of cards” or another questionable set of reasons that don’t hold up then I can see your point about faith/reason. My understanding of faith is " you believe without reasons to support your belief".
[/quote]
Your understanding is incorrect. Why on earth would you believe such a silly notion? I’m not being facetious. What arrogance. Are you to tell me that you honestly assume that ALL Christians and everyone else who is even the slightest bit religious are nothing more than mind-numbed automatons blindly following what they’ve been told, never stopping to think about why it may or may not be so?
Atheists believe everything came from…well, nothing. And WE are the ridiculous ones.
All of your precious science will look as much like religion to people 300 years from now as our beliefs do to you. Or I’m wrong, and you’ve got it all figured out. Yeah.
If anything, you guys, the Christian one’s too, would do well to spend at least a month or so reading through the posts here before you come in with your haughty drive-by “wisdom.” It’d save a bunch of eggs.
[quote]silee wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I don’t find the notion of common sense problematic, seems very simple.[/quote]
There is always a problem with common sense. All common sense is to me is an unquestioning stance towards what is being said. As soon as someone questions what we take for granted we are engaged in a form of critical thinking about things. We aren’t trying to reinvent the wheel about most things but there are aspects of life, politics, morality, philosophy that calls for non-common sense. Common sense is a form of ideology which says that the way things are is the way they should be.
[/quote]
…I think you may be right. You don’t know what common sense is.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[/quote]
What faith and reason have in common is the starting point, “I don’t know”, from which we start our journey.
This is the only thing they have in common, but to call faith and reason equal because of this is a fallacy.
People of faith say, “We know this to be true, because we believe this to be true and have faith that it is true.”
People of reason say, “We don’t know why, but we can know how.”
The difference between faith and reason is fundamental, not for their starting points but because of the conclusions.
[/quote]
Eph, you’ve argued with enough of us to know that, when we get down to the very core of what we believe, which is what we are actually talking about here, from the standpoint of reason, your beliefs on not on any firmer ground than ours are. At that point, the best you can say is, “We have reached different conclusions, based upon the evidence we have available.”
Reading your post, one might think us Christians called shotguns “boom-sticks” and believe thunder is actually the angels bowling in Heaven.
The use of faith does not automatically preclude the ability to reason. Certainly you are not insinuating that ALL of the things you believe are firmly based in science without the slightest smidgeon of faith, right?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
believe thunder is actually the angels bowling in Heaven.
[/quote]
…don’t break my heart. 
We should really have an atheist Q&A and a Christian Q&A Sticky in PWI.
I’ve probably rebutted the faith in science vs religious faith topic 3 times previously.
I’ve also heard the “How do you know god is stronger than the devil?” question asked by atheists and answered by Christians several times.
If not, I think I might start saving some of my responses in text files.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Atheists believe everything came from…well, nothing. And WE are the ridiculous ones.
[/quote]
Explain what you mean. Also define nothing.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[/quote]
Well yes, if your basing your reasons on a “house of cards” or another questionable set of reasons that don’t hold up then I can see your point about faith/reason. My understanding of faith is " you believe without reasons to support your belief".
[/quote]
Your understanding is incorrect. Why on earth would you believe such a silly notion? I’m not being facetious. What arrogance. Are you to tell me that you honestly assume that ALL Christians and everyone else who is even the slightest bit religious are nothing more than mind-numbed automatons blindly following what they’ve been told, never stopping to think about why it may or may not be so?
Atheists believe everything came from…well, nothing. And WE are the ridiculous ones.
All of your precious science will look as much like religion to people 300 years from now as our beliefs do to you. Or I’m wrong, and you’ve got it all figured out. Yeah.
If anything, you guys, the Christian one’s too, would do well to spend at least a month or so reading through the posts here before you come in with your haughty drive-by “wisdom.” It’d save a bunch of eggs.
[/quote]YEAH!!! What Cortes said. I concur pretty much down the line here.
Human reason is entirely, universally and comprehensively dependent upon faith, for saints and sinners alike, for the reasons I gave to Ephrem above. It will never EVER be otherwise. I feel another 2+2=4 dialog comin on here.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Human reason is entirely, universally and comprehensively dependent upon faith, for saints and sinners alike, for the reasons I gave to Ephrem above. It will never EVER be otherwise. I feel another 2+2=4 dialog comin on here.[/quote]
While that may be true, there are so many different types of faith (not just religious) that can be called on to serve the purpose of being the bedrock. And yes, I have read this whole thread and the vast majority of others of its ilk on here. And elsewhere.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]silee wrote:
So according to your thinking Bro chris, you think faith and reason are interchangeable?
well a part of modern philosophy as I understand it has to do with Ordinary language philosophy. Here they the philosophers of ordinary language are looking at how language is used, and so it relies on context. . The notion of common sense is itself problematic, who’s everyday sense and in favor of what?
[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but I’ll offer my answer. I’m going to sound like Tirib here, but, until you figure out what it is you are basing your reason on, you are on just as firm ground as you are with “faith.” Exactly the same ground, in fact.
Plato’s cave dwellers thought they knew everything there was to know about the shadows they saw dancing upon the wall of their little universe, too. Their reason, and the information they had available to themselves along with the assumptions they made from that information, led them to “know” what they knew.
[/quote]
What faith and reason have in common is the starting point, “I don’t know”, from which we start our journey.
This is the only thing they have in common, but to call faith and reason equal because of this is a fallacy.
People of faith say, “We know this to be true, because we believe this to be true and have faith that it is true.”
People of reason say, “We don’t know why, but we can know how.”
The difference between faith and reason is fundamental, not for their starting points but because of the conclusions.
[/quote]
Eph, you’ve argued with enough of us to know that, when we get down to the very core of what we believe, which is what we are actually talking about here, from the standpoint of reason, your beliefs on not on any firmer ground than ours are. At that point, the best you can say is, “We have reached different conclusions, based upon the evidence we have available.”
Reading your post, one might think us Christians called shotguns “boom-sticks” and believe thunder is actually the angels bowling in Heaven.
The use of faith does not automatically preclude the ability to reason. Certainly you are not insinuating that ALL of the things you believe are firmly based in science without the slightest smidgeon of faith, right?
[/quote]
Seems to me like you are using faith in different senses. " Faith pertains to religious convictions. And there we have faith because no convincing proof can be given so we " take it on faith". That’s has a differences that taking things in our everyday exist for granted doesn’t have. I take it for granted that when I drive to the store I will not have a problem with my car. I could have a problem and if i to i can say, I just assumed it would be ok. Its not like I hold to some religious dogma that can’t be proven but only taken on faith.
I think that’s what you confuse, assumption with faith, and I see a difference.
And I wouldn’t never hold that the use of faith in a religious context means one can’t reason about things, but it shows a limitation of reason for the believer.
I don’t know if I got you right. Sometimes we don’t know exactly what we are saying until we’ve said it.