Energy Independence

[quote]vroom wrote:
There is a monopoly of sorts in place right now. It’s the same as some utility company trying to run 240v wires in North America. There’s no market for it. However, you’d be foolish to say there is no market for electricity.[/quote]

  1. Check your oven and dryer outlets.

  2. Hybrid cars are available. Diesel cars are available. Ethanol mix is available at some pumps.

The only “barrier to entry” currently in place is that gas is cheap. Most of what you pay at the pump is taxes; gas itself is about the cheapest liquid on the market. It costs less than milk, less than bottled water, less than soft drinks.

Your “oil monopoly” doesn’t control the entire car industry. If electric cars became practical and cheaper than gas, any car manufacturer could build them and sell them. They could install “recharging” stations on their franchises lots if the oil companies didn’t want to have them at their gas stations. They could sell concessions to convenience stores, etc. Costco sells gas cheaper than everyone else around here; I’m sure they’d be along if there was demand and possibility of profit.

The problem with government backing is that if the idea turns out to be a dud, or less viable than a new technology that comes around in 5 or 10 years, then all the grants and subsidies already in place are very difficult to get rid of, as it always looks bad when a govt. backs out of a deal.

As much as you might think that the oil industry wants to prevent any alternative fuel from being made available on the market, the car industry has something to say about it. It takes only one maker to make a successful alternative car (something akin to “the electric Beetle” that sells millions for examples) for other makers to be forced to enter the market.

Having the government back ethanol by mandating that it be offered at every station or by giving research grants to it pretty much guarantees that research into other alternatives will dwindle. Hopefully, even if Canada was to do that, other countries might not be so myopic and we might eventually profit from their foresight.

And again, I do get your point. I’ve been getting it since the first time. I still think you’re wrong.

And you other points about “fueling the hostilities in the Middle East” and “environmental concerns” are even crappier. Any slack in demand from the West will simply be gobbled up by China and other poorer countries who can’t buy all the oil they want because they currently can’t afford it. The environmental impact would also be made worse, as most of those countries have much less stringent emission controls in place.

Your arguments might get you a good grade on a high school paper; but for real life, they don’t hold up.

Does anyone know, or have a quick way of finding, the percentage of oil used for heating and/or power generation versus the amount of oil that is made into gasoline for use in cars?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Does anyone know, or have a quick way of finding, the percentage of oil used for heating and/or power generation versus the amount of oil that is made into gasoline for use in cars?[/quote]

This link to the US DoE was the best I could find:
U.S. Primary Energy Consumption by Source and Sector, 2005(Quadrillion Btu)

It shows 68% of petrol going to transportation and the remaining going to other sectors and also gives a breakdown of other energy sources.

[quote]vroom wrote:
There is nothing wrong with ethanol as a fuel and there is no reason it could not be utilized.[/quote]

I do not and did not disagree with you. We currently use ethanol in our gasoline mixture nation wide.

Vehicle size is irrelevant on a vehicle by vehicle basis but there is an inverse relationship with vehicle weight and MPG. I can’t help you if you don’t understand how this differentiates the US from Brazil.

Right on.

Pookie,

Pointing to specialized outlets for certain utilities does not mean that consumers are routinely able to purchase and use 240v electronics, such as a radio or whatever.

Stop playing dense. I assume you are playng anyway.

The concept you keep resisting is that a de-facto monopoly can exist due to technological or standards based limitations that are difficult to overcome.

I’m not suggesting that there isn’t an ability for people to go out and hodge-podge something together if they truly wanted to. However, such additional expense and effort is an incredible barrier which means that there is not in fact a competitive market.

Finally, whether gasoline is “cheap” or not is certainly subject to debate. The fact that crude oil sells at $50 per barrel or more would seem to provide a market price point that ethanol could compete at if people were able to buy it and use it.

Whether or not it has the same power characteristics and so forth would be one of the ways in which there would be competition between the two. Price would of course be another. It’s possible that various subjective factors would also play a role if such a market were to develop.

Hell, I’m not saying I’m confident that ethanol would truly be competitive, but I would certainly like it if it were given a chance to compete.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I don’t know if anyone saw the special on Brazil and it’s ability to run the countries vehicles on ethanol?

…[/quote]

BMW has a hydrogen fueled car since 2000 (if i rememeber right)

and there is a car engine fueled by “water”, it was patented in USA in 1934

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Vehicle size is irrelevant on a vehicle by vehicle basis but there is an inverse relationship with vehicle weight and MPG. I can’t help you if you don’t understand how this differentiates the US from Brazil.
[/quote]

Of course I understand this, but it isn’t the fault of any particular choice of fuel, it just requires that we burn more of it.

While I’m sure it would be great if we were less addicted to speedy and powerful vehicles, this issue seems unrelated.

Presumably the price of ethanol would reflect is slightly lower power density and the market could choose what to buy and when to buy it…

[quote]pookie wrote:

I’m not saying it’s a dead-end. I just don’t want to see the governments propping it up if it turns out not to be a viable replacement.

I prefer keeping a level playing field where the various competing alternatives to oil can duke it out and hopefully see the best one come out on top.
[/quote]

Agreed, I must’ve misunderstood some of the context of your post.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Hell, I’m not saying I’m confident that ethanol would truly be competitive, but I would certainly like it if it were given a chance to compete.[/quote]

This is were I have a problem. You’re not confident ethanol would be competitive with gas, but you want the government to “legislate” a market for it, presumably by forcing oil companies to sell it at their pumps and car makers to sell a certain percentage of their cars with various ethanol requirements.

All those measures have costs. Those costs won’t be absorbed gracefully by the various companies, they’ll be passed on to the consumers. Likewise, any grant, subsidy, tax break or other incitative measure from the government ultimately comes from our pocket.

All that for an alternative fuel in which you’re not entirely confident…

What if, in the meantime, the battery breakthroughs (EEstor) I posted earlier make electric cars competitive and they become widely available? Oops. We backed the wrong technology, but now a whole industry has been legislated into place “to give it a chance to succeed in the market” and no one wants or needs it? Car makers still have to make their ethanol cars (until the law is struck down) and gas stations still have to offer ethanol. And since a few millions early adopter will be driving ethanol vehicles for maybe 10 years, you’re stuck propping up that dodo for a decade.

It’s not good enough for ethanol to match gas on power and costs. It has to exceed it, especially on cost.

[quote]pookie wrote:
It’s not good enough for ethanol to match gas on power and costs. It has to exceed it, especially on cost.

[/quote]
Word!