End the Male Only Celibate Teacher's Union...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

A man or women not so called will warp and pervert their sexuality with no God given outlet. No good thing can come of this situation and in all seriousness I don’t see how it can be denied that unnaturally suppressing one of the most powerful divinely designed human drives leads to sinful, perverse actions. This is made so blindingly clear by Paul in the 7th Chapter of his first to the Corinthians that the existence of even a discussion in that regard is truly disturbing.
[/quote]

Okay, Tirib, your prejudices are beginning to show. Are you saying, then, that teens and unmarried men who choose to remain celibate until marriage are on a road to sin and perversion? [/quote]Of course not. Pre-marital purity is a wholly natural and divinely instituted state wherein God will provide the proper anointing for it’s fulfillment. I really also believe that modern society has perverted God’s intention by not marrying young and startinmg godly families. Actually pretty much EVERYTHING that modern man, especially western man does is designed to pervert God’s design for sex and the family. This site is a prime example.
[/quote]

Okay, so let me get this straight, pre-marital purity is a wholly natural and divinely instituted state. Yet, celibacy, which Paul HIMSELF practiced, is something ultimately corrupting? Here are his words,

6 Now as a concession,not a command, I say this.7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

He is encouraging the practice here, offering it as an alternative to marriage AND sexual profligacy.

And he continues:

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry.

“If they cannot,” doesn’t mean ALL should not. Where do you get that? Indeed his implication appears to be that is preferred.

[/quote]please see above. I said a man or woman “not so called”, as in without that calling. There is a special gifting God provides to those for whom He has prepared a celibate life. I am WELL aware of 1st Corinthians 7 which says exactly that. Those specifically gifted for singleness should live that way and are enabled to honor God in that life, but everyone else should not and any person assuming this call to themselves without divine appointment is subject to all of what my last couple posts were about. I didn’t see this until just now BTW. I would never say nobody should be celibate. A very dear elderly lady friend of mine who turns 80 in October is such a person whose entire life has been given wholly to the service of the Lord. She was not given the desire to be married and have children. That was God’s gifting specifically for her. Someone without that gifting attempting to live under it is a tragic disaster on the way and if you cannot concede that in at least some cases, especially men who have attempted to illegitimately suppress this God given drive have been perverted in the process then I say YOUR biases are showing.

42

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Never said it wasn’t a gift (but not necessarily all men struggle with being celibate either, just some – a lot – weren’t made to be celibate for life). The Pope even says that on visitations (this isn’t like someone visited, this is a word for investigation – where a specially trained individual goes and lives at the seminary, convent, diocese, parish, &c. – and looks into allegations and possible misbehavior) to the seminary there have been seminarians found that weren’t called to the priesthood, but where still let in to the seminary (I’m guessing he’s referring to those with SSA).

And, yes the ground is fertile for such things to happen. Among the wheat is the best place to put the weeds. The enemy attacks those who can do the most damage to them. Just like Colleges and Universities is where socialist have congregated, Catholic enemies have been trying (and sometimes succeeding at an alarming rate) to move in on the seminaries.

You do realise that most of these people that abused these children were already sexual deviants? And, open about it. That they were let in because we were supposed to be “open” and “non-judgmental” and all that heretical crap?

Looking at the John Jay report, it’s pretty clear who the culprit of the crimes are (not necessarily those who are guilty, but those who directly abused those who were underage)…homosexuals, well at least those open about their SSA. Those who were celibate for a year before seminary, and never much revealed it except to confessors and Spiritual Directors had similar rates of abuse as straight males…none because straight men don’t practice sodomy with males.

[quote]Ya forgot somebody here. I’ll give ya a hint. He in the beginning created the heavens and the earth. That’s a good hint Chris. Surely you remember now? Oh I know EXACTLY what you’ll say to this, but it is quite telling and quite Catholic.
[/quote]

Yes, it is Catholic. Because a Catholic believes that Jesus is the Church and he believes that Jesus is the one High Priest, which within all those in priesthood participate in (they say there is 150k priests in the world – or something – but any real Catholic knows there is only one Priest).

So, for your sake, I’ll make abundantly clear. Not only did these “homosexuals” priests abuse children (which for that sin alone they should be hung), they disgraced the Holy Priesthood of the most High Priest, they disgraced and dragged the very Body of the Crucified Lord through the mud, which is the Church – and, they disgraced the one Fatherhood of Our Father, whom they participate in with the earthly fathers of those children whom they abused. I’m sure you glean from my statement that there is multiple sins that they committed on the whole and I don’t need to go into a detailed list of those?[/quote]I’ll not bother with the stuff I disagree with here (especially on the priesthood) and just say that this isn’t half bad overall, “Catholically” speaking. The first part is encouraging because for a while there it sounded like you were saying that men could have a normal sex drive and decide for themselves to live celibate. God releases those whom He would have live single for life, but they are clearly the exception though there will be significant numbers. BTW our confessions also recognize divinely appointed celibacy for some individuals including the Westminster standards.

43

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Well these guys are Calvinists:
http://www.reformation.com/CSA/Presbyterianabuse.html

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, hater.[/quote]You posted this before Pat and my comments then stand now.

44

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

A man or women not so called will warp and pervert their sexuality with no God given outlet. No good thing can come of this situation and in all seriousness I don’t see how it can be denied that unnaturally suppressing one of the most powerful divinely designed human drives leads to sinful, perverse actions. This is made so blindingly clear by Paul in the 7th Chapter of his first to the Corinthians that the existence of even a discussion in that regard is truly disturbing.
[/quote]

Okay, Tirib, your prejudices are beginning to show. Are you saying, then, that teens and unmarried men who choose to remain celibate until marriage are on a road to sin and perversion? [/quote]Of course not. Pre-marital purity is a wholly natural and divinely instituted state wherein God will provide the proper anointing for it’s fulfillment. I really also believe that modern society has perverted God’s intention by not marrying young and startinmg godly families. Actually pretty much EVERYTHING that modern man, especially western man does is designed to pervert God’s design for sex and the family. This site is a prime example.
[/quote]

Okay, so let me get this straight, pre-marital purity is a wholly natural and divinely instituted state. Yet, celibacy, which Paul HIMSELF practiced, is something ultimately corrupting? Here are his words,

6 Now as a concession,not a command, I say this.7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

He is encouraging the practice here, offering it as an alternative to marriage AND sexual profligacy.

And he continues:

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry.

“If they cannot,” doesn’t mean ALL should not. Where do you get that? Indeed his implication appears to be that is preferred.

[/quote]please see above. I said a man or woman “not so called”, as in without that calling. There is a special gifting God provides to those for whom He has prepared a celibate life. I am WELL aware of 1st Corinthians 7 which says exactly that. Those specifically gifted for singleness should live that way and are enabled to honor God in that life, but everyone else should not and any person assuming this call to themselves without divine appointment is subject to all of what my last couple posts were about. I didn’t see this until just now BTW. I would never say nobody should be celibate. A very dear elderly lady friend of mine who turns 80 in October is such a person whose entire life has been given wholly to the service of the Lord. She was not given the desire to be married and have children. That was God’s gifting specifically for her. Someone without that gifting attempting to live under it is a tragic disaster on the way and if you cannot concede that in at least some cases, especially men who have attempted to illegitimately suppress this God given drive have been perverted in the process then I say YOUR biases are showing.
[/quote]

I might concede that, but your post seemed to imply ALL, thereby implicating the actual institution of the priesthood itself as the source of sexual perversion, when it is only a small fraction of priests who have committed these vile acts.

45

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Well these guys are Calvinists:
http://www.reformation.com/CSA/Presbyterianabuse.html

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, hater.[/quote]You posted this before Pat and my comments then stand now.
[/quote]

“He bravely ran away”

46

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< I might concede that, but your post seemed to imply ALL, thereby implicating the actual institution of the priesthood itself as the source of sexual perversion, when it is only a small fraction of priests who have committed these vile acts. [/quote]Of the small percentage that commit these vile acts some would not have had they not defied God in presuming to suppress an insuppressible (forever anyway) human drive that was clearly present in them by divine decree. I’d like to see the numbers on just plain immorality in the Catholic priesthood among adults.

I said to Chris a page or two ago: [quote]<<< Unless specifically gifted by God for celibacy it is itself a perversion to forgo marriage and attempt to be holier than God. >>>[/quote]Agree or disagree? I suspect you agree and on that page we concur. I promise you I have prayerfully exegeted 1st Cor. 7 (and every other marriage, family, etc passage) to the last jot n tittle myself. I’m allowed to do that and it is one of the most tremendous joys of my life to have the incomparable mind of almighty God, which IS truth and life, brought alive by the living Word in my heart bearing witness to the written Word in my hands. Yes, I do make grateful extensive use of the multitudes of other godly men who’ve gone before me, but I would rather be paralyzed from the neck down for 200 years than relinquish that most blessed privilege for five minutes.

47

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< I might concede that, but your post seemed to imply ALL, thereby implicating the actual institution of the priesthood itself as the source of sexual perversion, when it is only a small fraction of priests who have committed these vile acts. [/quote]Of the small percentage that commit these vile acts some would not have had they not defied God in presuming to suppress an insuppressible (forever anyway) human drive that was clearly present in them by divine decree. I’d like to see the numbers on just plain immorality in the Catholic priesthood among adults.

I said to Chris a page or two ago: [quote]<<< Unless specifically gifted by God for celibacy it is itself a perversion to forgo marriage and attempt to be holier than God. >>>[/quote]Agree or disagree? I suspect you agree and on that page we concur. I promise you I have prayerfully exegeted 1st Cor. 7 (and every other marriage, family, etc passage) to the last jot n tittle myself. I’m allowed to do that and it is one of the most tremendous joys of my life to have the incomparable mind of almighty God, which IS truth and life, brought alive by the living Word in my heart bearing witness to the written Word in my hands. Yes, I do make grateful extensive use of the multitudes of other godly men who’ve gone before me, but I would rather be paralyzed from the neck down for 200 years than relinquish that most blessed privilege for five minutes. [/quote]

Sure I agree. What I took issue with is this statement:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I do believe though that [Catholicism’s] theology and practices do in many cases make for very fertile ground for this type of thing. Unless specifically gifted by God for celibacy it is itself a perversion to forgo marriage and attempt to be holier than God.

A man or women not so called will warp and pervert their sexuality with no God given outlet. No good thing can come of this situation and in all seriousness I don’t see how it can be denied that unnaturally suppressing one of the most powerful divinely designed human drives leads to sinful, perverse actions. This is made so blindingly clear by Paul in the 7th Chapter of his first to the Corinthians that the existence of even a discussion in that regard is truly disturbing.
[/quote]

Read in the context of your general view of Catholicism, I took this as your implication that the institution of the priesthood itself is the root cause of the sexual perversions we are here discussing. The priesthood is understood to be a calling, not for all and not even for many, but for a very, very select few. It is understood or should be that those called are afforded a certain grace in this respect. If that’s not what you were implying then please accept my apology.

In addition, though, I do think that the idea of “sexual repression” is WAY overblown in this present libertine society of ours, where the highest “good” is the fulfillment of any and every desire, and the worst “evil” is “intolerance” of any perversion, no matter how clearly sick. A lot of people could benefit from exercising a little more willpower now and then.

48

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Read in the context of your general view of Catholicism, I took this as your implication that the institution of the priesthood itself is the root cause of the sexual perversions we are here discussing. >>>[/quote]Self inflicted celibacy minus divine ordination to that station in life IS a disaster in the making. Paul says so. If I were ever to believe that God called anyone to anything like the Catholic priesthood I would never believe that celibacy was a NECESSARY prerequisite. Peter, your alleged first pope was married for God’s sake. Unless the only “authorized” interpretation of “believing wife” can be mangled into something other than… “believing wife”. [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< The priesthood is understood to be a calling, not for all and not even for many, but for a very, very select few. It is understood or should be that those called are afforded a certain grace in this respect. >>>[/quote] I don’t believe that everybody called to professional ministry needs to be celibate. Nor do I believe that ALL gifted for celibacy are necessarily called to professional ministry. However, if I were ever to believe in anything like the Catholic priesthood, including celibacy for it, your above quote is what I’d believe. [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< If that’s not what you were implying then please accept my apology. >>>[/quote]No need man. I could have been clearer and you could have been a bit more attentive =] No biggie. You didn’t intentionally misrepresent me and you won’t 2 posts from now accuse me of saying celibacy is always ungodly again. [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< In addition, though, I do think that the idea of “sexual repression” is WAY overblown in this present libertine society of ours, where the highest “good” is the fulfillment of any and every desire, and the worst “evil” is “intolerance” of any perversion, no matter how clearly sick. A lot of people could benefit from exercising a little more willpower now and then. >>>[/quote]Oh there’s no doubt about this. Sex in this society has been reduced from a beautiful expression of Christ’s love for His church to the most debased, self obsessed, hedonistic idolatry imaginable. There are even people claiming the name of Jesus who outpace the rank pagans in their whoredom. That’s not what I’m talkin about as I’m pretty sure you know.