Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
avoid any Catholic quibbling
[/quote]

Just a side note, not many Catholics quibble much about the translation (none that I have met). We have the magisterium, guided by the Holy Ghost, to help us understand the deposit of faith. The reason why most American Catholics use the NAB is because it has been approved for the Mass. The Mass being important to us, it would make sense that we’d want to read it Scripture in the same language as the Mass is said in, contemporary English.

However, if you wish to appease those who quibble about what Bible you use, you’ll most likely have two options, the Original or the translation: Latin Vulgate or the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible (1609 AD).

Anyway, regards.

BC

P.S. I’ll answer the stuff when I get back, I just have to get dressed and go to class.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
It genuinely blows my mind that you believe that Jesus is God after quoting a scripture that plainly says Jesus is at God’s side…and that says no one has seen God. [/quote]

It blows my mind that the doubting St. Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and My God and yet you believe he is not.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:<<< It genuinely blows my mind that you believe that Jesus is God after quoting a scripture that plainly says Jesus is at God’s side…and that says no one has seen God. [/quote]Please continue here: Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man - Politics and World Issues - Forums - T Nation

@ Chris: I almost used the DR actually.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
It genuinely blows my mind that you believe that Jesus is God after quoting a scripture that plainly says Jesus is at God’s side…and that says no one has seen God. [/quote]

It blows my mind that the doubting St. Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and My God and yet you believe he is not.[/quote]

We can take a nice hard look at the Greek (which I am more than willing to do) but we can also view the rest of the same chapter that you pulled that scripture from: John 20.

John 20:17 - Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

and of course, the verse that closes the book off:

John 20:31 - “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:<<< It genuinely blows my mind that you believe that Jesus is God after quoting a scripture that plainly says Jesus is at God’s side…and that says no one has seen God. [/quote]Please continue here: Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man - Politics and World Issues - Forums - T Nation

@ Chris: I almost used the DR actually.
[/quote]

Thank you for that. I put a lot of time into that thread and still, the facts I put forth have yet to be dealt with. I remember that one.

Then we should continue that discussion there. No offense. I have been the guiltiest of all in this regard. I am making a conscious effort to stop it. There is a thread for pert near everything already. We should avoid redundant hijacking if possible in my opinion and continue the 10,000 threads that are already out there. I’ll be glad to help =]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
It genuinely blows my mind that you believe that Jesus is God after quoting a scripture that plainly says Jesus is at God’s side…and that says no one has seen God. [/quote]

It blows my mind that the doubting St. Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and My God and yet you believe he is not.[/quote]

We can take a nice hard look at the Greek (which I am more than willing to do) but we can also view the rest of the same chapter that you pulled that scripture from: John 20.

John 20:17 - Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

and of course, the verse that closes the book off:

John 20:31 - “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

[/quote]

You caught me off guard (with the first comment as I made towards you), but I have to ask…what does this have to do with the interpretation of the title in light of Psalm 22?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m going to hold you to these profundities that you have here set before us Chris because like Aquinas you will be soon be contradicting them without realizing it. God has been furthering His work in your life though. BTW, I’d be shocked if Mr. Chen disagreed with any of this. Could be wrong. I was going to move this post into the epistemology thread because it’s exactly what were talkin about there, but I doubt Kamui would mind it here. I hope he’s back soon too. I’m waitin for some more dialog with him.
[/quote]

I just saw this. The reason why I don’t contradict myself is because I see that there can be emphasis without contradiction. Both/And rather than Either/Or.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I don’t contradict myself >>>[/quote]Yes you do. And I will show you. However, honor requires that I answer Kamui first. hopefully tonight. I have legs and I have to put a network switch downstairs at the church.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I don’t contradict myself >>>[/quote]Yes you do. And I will show you. However, honor requires that I answer Kamui first. hopefully tonight. I have legs and I have to put a network switch downstairs at the church.
[/quote]

That’s because I suppose you emphasis the one side in favor of contradicting the other.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Chris,

Why go outside the bible if you haven’t done that yet.[/quote]

You brought up a valid question, but this begs the question: why do we look in the canon of Holy Scripture, how do we know that it is the authoritative Word of God and where does it get its authority?

I’ll refrain from making further comments until we hash out these fundamental issues.

Anyway, regards.

BC

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Chris,

Why go outside the bible if you haven’t done that yet.[/quote]

You brought up a valid question, but this begs the question: why do we look in the canon of Holy Scripture, how do we know that it is the authoritative Word of God and where does it get its authority?
[/quote]
We look at the Holy Scripture, not the canon of Holy Scripture. It was the Scripture from the beginning, no matter how long it took the early Christians to come into general agreement. Of course, as a Roman Catholic, you are taught we have the bible because of the church, which is not true at all. We have the bible because it is “given by inspiration of God…” (2Ti 3:16 KJV), not because it’s recognized or authorized by any certain council. The scribes are responsible for putting the OT in your lap. Would Christ have you rely on them for authoritative doctrine? As soon as you make tradition of equal authority with Scripture, you have violated Christ’s clear admonition in Mark 7.

Here’s how it happens- A certain passage will yield a teaching based on a conservative and contextual approach. Rather than accept what you have learned from the Scriptures alone, you seek out some church commentator and put his work next to this. If they are different, you rely on the commentator’s “interpretation”. In so doing “ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” (Mar 7:9) You have effectively put tradition above Scripture thereby “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition” (Mar 7:13)

This is the fundamental problem of the Roman church, which has led you to believe so much that is clearly contrary to Holy Scripture.


.

Mark 7
That Which Defiles
1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, ?Why don?t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands??

6 He replied, ?Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

??These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.?[b]

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.?

9 And he continued, ?You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ?Honor your father and mother,?[d] and, ?Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.?[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)? 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.?

14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, ?Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.? [16] [f]

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 ?Are you so dull?? he asked. ?Don?t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn?t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.? (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

20 He went on: ?What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person?s heart, that evil thoughts come?sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.?

1 Corinthians 11:2
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter [a]from us.

Sorry Sloth, I cannot presume to know what your intent is here in quoting these passages. Since I am the 1st on this thread to refer to Mark 7, I guess your post’s are intended for me.

Oh, I get it. You are saying “tradition” is good to follow. Yes, Paul does say that. But he is refering to the ones he wrote down: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2Th 2:15) That is, the bible, not some council in 600 AD

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2Th 3:6)

Nor are any other persons oral traditions okay, only the apostles, that is Scripture. To do anything else is to walk disorderly.

1 Corinthians 11
1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:13

New International Version (NIV)

13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe

2 Timothy 2

New King James Version (NKJV)
Be Strong in Grace

2 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.