Hi!
I was wondering about the fragility of Micellar Casein and how:
a) High Speed Blending
and/or
b) Heating (oven-type temperatures, i.e. over 300 F)
affect the new improved Grow!..
The reason for me asking about a) is obvious (because I want to know if me using the blender breaks up Grow!) and in regards to b) it’s because I use protein power in Muffins and wanted to know if Grow! looses its properties if I use it for baking…
Cy, TC, someone?
You know I have seen the same question regarding heat and protein powder a dozen times here and no one has provided an answer!!!
Why? Someone at T-Nation must know the answer.
I’m not a protein chemist. However, things like extreme heat, and yes, mechanical stress, like perhaps that of a very powerful blender could technically cause a protein to become denatured (altering tertiary or quaternary structure). In the particular case of micellar casein, I don’t think that one has to worry much though. Often times when the discussion of shape/structure of the protein is of concern, it’s generally because the protein itself when in systemic circulation has some sort of biological activity (e.g., GH, prolactin, etc.) but in the case of a protein that we’re ingesting for the sake of having peptides and amino acids absorbed by the small intestine, I tend to think it’s not as great of a concern. When we eat eggs after cooking them, they are denatured and I remember JB had pointed out that in doing so, bioavailability is actually increased. I mean, I guess you could argue that if denaturing the casein prior to ingestion, you’re altering the physical properties and thus you won’t get the same release rate of amino acids and so forth, but I don’t know that it’s a real concern.
Aside from that, pH too can denature a given protein, so when it’s in our stomach, one has to question the relevance of the issue.
I guess if you want to be on the “safe side” you ca avoid cooking with the protein (in muffins as pointed out and such) and use a shaker instead of a blender.
In closing, I don’t know for certain that it’s a huge deal, but I personally wouldn’t be too concerned.
Generally I’d defer to the experts, but this sounds kind of wild to me.
Should we start eating raw chicken, pork and beef just in case there are changes to the proteins during cooking?
How many recipes out there call for milk or eggs in bread or batter? How many slices of pizza with extremely hot cheese have we all eaten?
I’m going to step out on a limb and claim that people have gotten big and strong for centuries eating cooked foods. I don’t think we have to worry all that much about it.
Don’t obsess over the minor stuff. The difference to your progress because 0.X% of the protein degrades during blending or cooking is extremely trivial at best.
End rant.
Do what you need to do to make sure you have the proper nutrients convenient so that you are able to consume them regularly.
OK, OK, I get the point. 
As I mentioned before the only reason I even thought about this was having read that the pasteurizing process of milk does destroy the micellar casein and that previous iterations of micellar casein protein powders had explicit instructions on that they should not be blended.
Having said that, I have no problem simply not worrying about it - the protein muffins are extremely convenient as so is using a blender to make a Grow! shake… So I’ll just keep doing it…
Just a couple of points on this:
Dr. Mercola speaking:
.As many of you know, I am a fond proponent of using raw eggs as a major food in your diet.
Raw whole eggs are a phenomenally inexpensive and incredible source of high-quality nutrients that many of us are deficient in, especially high-quality protein and fat.
Eggs generally are one of the most allergic foods that are eaten, but I believe this is because they are cooked. If one consumes the eggs in their raw state the incidence of egg allergy virtually disappears. Heating the egg protein actually changes its chemical shape, and the distortion can easily lead to allergies.
So, if you have not been able to tolerate eggs before you will want to consider eating them uncooked.
But when one discusses raw eggs, the typical reaction is a fear of salmonella. So let me begin this update, my first that comprehensively addresses the immediate concern of nearly everyone who hears this recommendation.
“Well What About Salmonella? Won’t I Get Sick If I Eat Raw Eggs?”
Salmonella is a serious infection, and it is believed that in the US over two-thirds of a million cases of human illnesses a year result from eating contaminated eggs. If you want more information on salmonella the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has an excellent page on this disease.
So why on earth would any competent health care professional ever recommend eating uncooked eggs?
When you carefully analyze the risk of contracting salmonella from raw eggs, you will find that it is actually quite low. A study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture earlier this year (Risk Analysis April 2002 22(2):203-18) showed that of the 69 billion eggs produced annually, only 2.3 million of them are contaminated with salmonella.
So simple math suggests that only 0.00003 percent of eggs are infected. The translation is that only one in every 30,000 eggs is contaminated with salmonella. This gives you an idea of how uncommon this problem actually is.
While it is likely that I will consume more than 30,000 eggs in my lifetime, most of you will not. However, inevitably someone out there will find a salmonella-contaminated egg, so it is important to understand how to seriously decrease your risk of infection.
Salmonella infections are usually present only in traditionally raised commercial hens. If you are purchasing your eggs from healthy chickens this infection risk reduces dramatically. Remember, only sick chickens lay salmonella-contaminated eggs. If you are obtaining high quality, cage-free, organically fed, omega-3 enhanced chicken eggs as recommended above, the risk virtually disappears.
But let’s say that for some reason, even after following that advice, you still obtain an egg that is infected. What do you do? Well, before you eat eggs - raw or not – you should thoroughly examine them for signs of infection. I have provided some guidelines at the bottom of this section for you to use in this process.
You might still be a bit nervous and say, “What if I follow these guidelines and still get an infection?”
Salmonella Is Generally a Benign Self-Limiting Illness In Healthy People
The major principle to recognize here is that if you are healthy a salmonella infection is not a big deal. You may feel sick and have loose stools, but this infection is easily treated by using high-quality probiotics that have plenty of good bacteria. You can take a dose every 30 minutes until you start to feel better, and most people improve within a few hours.
Revised Recommendations For Raw Egg Whites
Earlier this summer, I posted an article that suggested that one should not eat raw egg whites. This is the traditional nutritional dogma as raw egg whites contain a glycoprotein called avidin that is very effective at binding biotin, one of the B vitamins. The concern is that this can lead to a biotin deficiency. The simple solution is to cook the egg whites as this completely deactivates the avidin.
The problem is that it also completely deactivates nearly every other protein in the egg white. While you will still obtain nutritional benefits from consuming cooked egg whites, from a nutritional perspective it would seem far better to consume them uncooked.
Since making the recommendation in July, I have more carefully studied this issue. Two groups brought me to back this: pet owners who feed their pets raw foods and Aajonus Vonderplanitz, who wrote the raw food book We Want to Live. Both feel quite strongly that raw eggs are just fine to eat.
After my recent studies it became clear that the egg?s design carefully compensated for this issue.
It put tons of biotin in the egg yolk. Egg yolks have one of the highest concentrations of biotin found in nature. So it is likely that you will not have a biotin deficiency if you consume the whole raw egg, yolk and white. It is also clear, however, that if you only consume raw egg whites, you are nearly guaranteed to develop a biotin deficiency unless you take a biotin supplement.
The following tables list the amounts of biotin in some common foods, as well as recommended daily amounts:
Food Serving Biotin (mcg)
Liver, cooked
3 ounces*
27
Egg, cooked
1 large
25
Yeast, bakers active
1 packet (7 grams)
14
Wheat bran, crude
1 ounce
14
Bread, whole wheat
1 slice
6
Cheese, camembert
1 ounce
6
Avocado
1 whole
6
Salmon, cooked
3 ounces*
4
Cauliflower, raw
1 cup
4
Chicken, cooked
3 ounces*
3
Cheese, cheddar
1 ounce
2
Pork, cooked
3 ounces*
2
Raspberries
1 cup
2
Artichoke, cooked
1 medium
2
Adequate Intake (AI) for Biotin
Life Stage
?Age
Males (mcg/day)
Females (mcg/day)
Infants
?0-6 months
5
5
Infants
?7-12 months
6
6
Children
?1-3 years
8
8
Children
?4-8 years
12
12
Children
?9-13 years
20
20
Adolescents
?14-18 years
25
25
Adults
?19 years and older
30
30
Pregnancy
?all ages
?-
30
Breastfeeding
?all ages
?-
35
There is a potential problem with using the entire raw egg if you are pregnant. Biotin deficiency is a common concern in pregnancy and it is possible that consuming whole raw eggs would make it worse.
If you are pregnant you have two options. The first is to actually measure for a biotin deficiency. This is best done through urinary excretion of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid (3-HIA), which increases as a result of the decreased activity of the biotin-dependent enzyme methylcrotonyl-CoA carboxylase.
It might take you some time to get used to using raw eggs. I personally have shifted to consuming them “Rocky style” one egg with the yolk intact and swallowing them whole. Usually two eggs at one sitting.
Alternatively, you could have your raw eggs in a protein shake or Living Fuel Rx or take a biotin supplement.
Would like Cy of JB wish to comment on this?
Take soy for example - bad, we all agee but it has been shown that when fermented all the bad elements are eliminated - natto, etc. are extremely healthy ways to consume soy.
Another is yougurt - most of the commercial brands sold are the equivalent of the protein bars sold - junk. Commercial yougurts are pasturized and denatured beyond belief - but making and consuming kefir for example provides you with the real benefits.
So lets not get caught in the chest pounding (read ranting) that cooking and heating this or that is the only way to go. There are definite benefits to BOTH. And BOTH should be included. Just be intelligent about the choice.
So the question still exists: does heating a protein powder deactivate the protein? There is every possibility that it may and I suggest Biotest do a study that clearly demonstrates it does or it does not. Afterall, Grow! is one their major products. So if I am using my precious Grow! in a muffin recipe and i find out that the heating does indeed alter the protein viability I will be non too happy.
Merry Christmas all.
Gonta,
I think you are making mountains out of molehills. I think this is true for most claims concerning raw vs cooked consumption of food.
However, I must say, you are pretty pushy to suggest that Biotest must test it’s protein for degradation via cooking. Has anyone else done these tests? Yes, then STFU, go read it. No, then STFU, it’s not Biotests responsibility.
Afraid your food might degrade, then eat it raw or whatever you want. While you obsess over this crap, producing excess cortisol, the rest of us will be relaxing and munching on muffins and brownies.
I can’t believe how obsessive some folks get about “health” and “nutrition” information available over the Internet. If half this stuff had the impact the authors claimed we’d all be 250 lbs at 4% bodyfat.
If you are one of those few people that has food issues, then by all means research raw foods and probiotics and all the rest. Most of us, happily myself included, have no need to go to such great lengths looking for miracles and secrets.
Eat good food. Eat lots of little meals. Work out hard. Get lots of rest. That’s the big secret! The articles on this site provide great detail on how to succeed over and over again… you can stop searching.
Heh, sorry for the rant, this area is a pet peeve of mine. I’ve fallen into the trap of looking for the ultimate secret (as opposed to hard work and discipline) before.
Here is an excerpt from TC’s announcement of micellar protein in his article: PROTEIN MAGIC (sound the trumpets!!!)
In the simplest words possible, micellar casein is the undenatured form of casein found in raw milk. All of the amino acids are intact, unprocessed and unaltered. They are possibly the most exotic proteins in existence but ironically, they’re destroyed when the milk is processed in any conventional way.
If, however, the milk proteins are “handled” in the most careful way possible, shielded from light and heat and mechanical insult, we can preserve the micellar casein. That means that the good properties of casein are magnified, increased exponentially. Micellar casein has antibacterial action; leads to increased nutrient absorption and even increased HDL levels; and it even has immuno-modulatory effects and opioid-like peptides that might ease achy joints and muscles.
Perhaps most importantly, nitrogen retention ? the physiological condition that’s essential for muscle growth ? is amplified by micellar casein. All of that remains intact when it’s processed properly.
In this anoouncement TC uses such terms as “handled” with care" shielded from heat and mechanical insult". Why?!?!? If cooking this stuff won’t change the chemical properties then why was it “handled” and “shielded” with such care.
Now CY may not be a protein chemist but there must be a protein chemist in Biotest - that is, unless it was bought in bulk from some chemical factory in China.
Good god - now I am ranting. sorry!! But an answer PLEASE!!!
Well Vroom from the thoughtfulness and intelligence of this and most of your retorts I suggest you are the one that should look for the miracle.
You are badly in need of one.
And your comment regarding you and most people on this site don’t “obsess” over such things - as if YOU speak for most of the people on this site. HA!HA!
Don’t bother throwing an insult back as I won’t get into an Vroom vs Zeb war. But you may respond to my quiry regarding TC’s article about micellar protein above. And by the way you may want to pick up a good read for the holidays " How to win friends and influence people". An oldy but a goody .And its basic enough that even you may get it.
Gonta,
I’m guessing that at worst the cooking and such could impact the micellar structure – changing the ability to maintain absorption over time.
Otherwise, there really can’t be much difference between cooking this protein as opposed to any other protein. It all has to be broken into aminos for digestion.
By the way, I was speaking for the planet, not the majority of members here… and more importantly, you replied before I could edit in an apology for ranting… 
Vroom; Rant all you want - just don’t insult people because they don’t think the same way you do. Ranting and insulting are not the same thing.
Have a good Christmas.
[quote]gonta wrote:
Just a couple of points on this:
Dr. Mercola speaking:
.As many of you know, I am a fond proponent of using raw eggs as a major food in your diet.
Raw whole eggs are a phenomenally inexpensive and incredible source of high-quality nutrients that many of us are deficient in, especially high-quality protein and fat.
Eggs generally are one of the most allergic foods that are eaten, but I believe this is because they are cooked. If one consumes the eggs in their raw state the incidence of egg allergy virtually disappears. Heating the egg protein actually changes its chemical shape, and the distortion can easily lead to allergies.
So, if you have not been able to tolerate eggs before you will want to consider eating them uncooked.
But when one discusses raw eggs, the typical reaction is a fear of salmonella. So let me begin this update, my first that comprehensively addresses the immediate concern of nearly everyone who hears this recommendation.
“Well What About Salmonella? Won’t I Get Sick If I Eat Raw Eggs?”
Salmonella is a serious infection, and it is believed that in the US over two-thirds of a million cases of human illnesses a year result from eating contaminated eggs. If you want more information on salmonella the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has an excellent page on this disease.
So why on earth would any competent health care professional ever recommend eating uncooked eggs?
When you carefully analyze the risk of contracting salmonella from raw eggs, you will find that it is actually quite low. A study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture earlier this year (Risk Analysis April 2002 22(2):203-18) showed that of the 69 billion eggs produced annually, only 2.3 million of them are contaminated with salmonella.
So simple math suggests that only 0.00003 percent of eggs are infected. The translation is that only one in every 30,000 eggs is contaminated with salmonella. This gives you an idea of how uncommon this problem actually is.
While it is likely that I will consume more than 30,000 eggs in my lifetime, most of you will not. However, inevitably someone out there will find a salmonella-contaminated egg, so it is important to understand how to seriously decrease your risk of infection.
Salmonella infections are usually present only in traditionally raised commercial hens. If you are purchasing your eggs from healthy chickens this infection risk reduces dramatically. Remember, only sick chickens lay salmonella-contaminated eggs. If you are obtaining high quality, cage-free, organically fed, omega-3 enhanced chicken eggs as recommended above, the risk virtually disappears.
But let’s say that for some reason, even after following that advice, you still obtain an egg that is infected. What do you do? Well, before you eat eggs - raw or not – you should thoroughly examine them for signs of infection. I have provided some guidelines at the bottom of this section for you to use in this process.
You might still be a bit nervous and say, “What if I follow these guidelines and still get an infection?”
Salmonella Is Generally a Benign Self-Limiting Illness In Healthy People
The major principle to recognize here is that if you are healthy a salmonella infection is not a big deal. You may feel sick and have loose stools, but this infection is easily treated by using high-quality probiotics that have plenty of good bacteria. You can take a dose every 30 minutes until you start to feel better, and most people improve within a few hours.
Revised Recommendations For Raw Egg Whites
Earlier this summer, I posted an article that suggested that one should not eat raw egg whites. This is the traditional nutritional dogma as raw egg whites contain a glycoprotein called avidin that is very effective at binding biotin, one of the B vitamins. The concern is that this can lead to a biotin deficiency. The simple solution is to cook the egg whites as this completely deactivates the avidin.
The problem is that it also completely deactivates nearly every other protein in the egg white. While you will still obtain nutritional benefits from consuming cooked egg whites, from a nutritional perspective it would seem far better to consume them uncooked.
Since making the recommendation in July, I have more carefully studied this issue. Two groups brought me to back this: pet owners who feed their pets raw foods and Aajonus Vonderplanitz, who wrote the raw food book We Want to Live. Both feel quite strongly that raw eggs are just fine to eat.
After my recent studies it became clear that the egg?s design carefully compensated for this issue.
It put tons of biotin in the egg yolk. Egg yolks have one of the highest concentrations of biotin found in nature. So it is likely that you will not have a biotin deficiency if you consume the whole raw egg, yolk and white. It is also clear, however, that if you only consume raw egg whites, you are nearly guaranteed to develop a biotin deficiency unless you take a biotin supplement.
The following tables list the amounts of biotin in some common foods, as well as recommended daily amounts:
Food Serving Biotin (mcg)
Liver, cooked
3 ounces*
27
Egg, cooked
1 large
25
Yeast, bakers active
1 packet (7 grams)
14
Wheat bran, crude
1 ounce
14
Bread, whole wheat
1 slice
6
Cheese, camembert
1 ounce
6
Avocado
1 whole
6
Salmon, cooked
3 ounces*
4
Cauliflower, raw
1 cup
4
Chicken, cooked
3 ounces*
3
Cheese, cheddar
1 ounce
2
Pork, cooked
3 ounces*
2
Raspberries
1 cup
2
Artichoke, cooked
1 medium
2
Adequate Intake (AI) for Biotin
Life Stage
?Age
Males (mcg/day)
Females (mcg/day)
Infants
?0-6 months
5
5
Infants
?7-12 months
6
6
Children
?1-3 years
8
8
Children
?4-8 years
12
12
Children
?9-13 years
20
20
Adolescents
?14-18 years
25
25
Adults
?19 years and older
30
30
Pregnancy
?all ages
?-
30
Breastfeeding
?all ages
?-
35
There is a potential problem with using the entire raw egg if you are pregnant. Biotin deficiency is a common concern in pregnancy and it is possible that consuming whole raw eggs would make it worse.
If you are pregnant you have two options. The first is to actually measure for a biotin deficiency. This is best done through urinary excretion of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid (3-HIA), which increases as a result of the decreased activity of the biotin-dependent enzyme methylcrotonyl-CoA carboxylase.
It might take you some time to get used to using raw eggs. I personally have shifted to consuming them “Rocky style” one egg with the yolk intact and swallowing them whole. Usually two eggs at one sitting.
Alternatively, you could have your raw eggs in a protein shake or Living Fuel Rx or take a biotin supplement.
Would like Cy of JB wish to comment on this?
Take soy for example - bad, we all agee but it has been shown that when fermented all the bad elements are eliminated - natto, etc. are extremely healthy ways to consume soy.
Another is yougurt - most of the commercial brands sold are the equivalent of the protein bars sold - junk. Commercial yougurts are pasturized and denatured beyond belief - but making and consuming kefir for example provides you with the real benefits.
So lets not get caught in the chest pounding (read ranting) that cooking and heating this or that is the only way to go. There are definite benefits to BOTH. And BOTH should be included. Just be intelligent about the choice.
So the question still exists: does heating a protein powder deactivate the protein? There is every possibility that it may and I suggest Biotest do a study that clearly demonstrates it does or it does not. Afterall, Grow! is one their major products. So if I am using my precious Grow! in a muffin recipe and i find out that the heating does indeed alter the protein viability I will be non too happy.
Merry Christmas all.[/quote]
Heating egg protein does not increase the allergenic potential of the proteins within, you’d expect just the opposite and in fact, that’s what has been demonstrated.
Hisatomi M, et al. Arerugi. 1991 Dec;40(12):1454-63
Heating milk for 10 minutes also reduces allergenic potential. The argument that heating can change the shape of the protein and yes, physical properties is correct. What is also correct, is the fact that as I said before, it can therefore alter biological activity. In the case of a protein allergen, denaturing, in most cases will decrease allergenic activity, not only by altering the molecule itself, but in some cases making it easier to digest in to smaller fragments. I tried to make this principle clear in my first post.
Is it possible that heating or denaturing a given allergenic protein molecule could result in it being more stable and able to resist digestion, hence creating a greater threat? Entirely, but with regard to egg and milk products, there’s either no effect, or a decrease in activity. That’s a good thing.