[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
A truly fair tax would be a head tax, but that gets one all caught up in debating the meaning of “fair.”
A flat tax would be stupendous. I’m not a fan of the sales tax for a variety of reasons, but the biggest one is that I don’t want the onus of federal tax collection and record keeping put on to businesses’ backs.
For now, I’ll just be happy if they make permanent the Bush tax cuts and move closer to killing the inheritance tax.[/quote]
The idea behind a sales tax is it teaches us to be a saving nation instead of a consumption based nation. It is what we used for Japan after WWII with the Marshall plan.
[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
haney wrote:
I am friends with someone who is in the upper 1%. He pays taxes on 57% of everything he makes. There is nothing fair about income tax or flat tax for that matter.
57%? Is that all?
I wish I paid only 57% all told!
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right!!!
remember he wrote a good amount of his income off as a business expense.
Privatizing education will only allow the privileged to gain opportunity in this country.
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I didn’t know an education was the only way to make something of your self?
It is not big business that is the problem it is a throw away society that is to blame. Regulating big business is not the only solution changing the consumers habits are. Big business may cause the big obvious polutions, but consumers do the majority of the polution with poor consumption habits, and compounded usage.
I forgot what a great job we are doing of preserving SS right now. Isn’t it set to go bust by 2040? Not to mention you are not geting interest on your current SS money. I have to ask what precentage of people that retire right now are actually able to retire and never go back to work? You can look it up on SS administration’s website. I don’t think SS is working anyway, so how can you break a system that is already broke?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
So your solution would be to privatize everything? Then really the rich will get richer.
Privatizing education will only allow the privileged to gain opportunity in this country.
Doing away with the EPA will only hurt this country in the long run. I know it’s hard for those instant gratification types to understand the environment is a long-term problem that started with the industrial revolution two hundred years ago. We cannot allow big business to destroy our home and the planet in the name of stock holder satisfaction.
Go ahead privatize social security and ruin everything that FDR was trying to do for individuals…we could call it social risk–because it won’t be very secure if you let the average person control it. Also HUD exists so that those without the means can own property and aslo to helps to sustain urban area. Unless you want to live in a giant suburb this will not stand.
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I said privatize S.S. and do away with the rest. The EPA is a worthless piece of bureaucratic crap.
You have a problem with people becoming wealthy and allowing competition to drive down costs?
You don’t own a business, do you? It is evident in you pro-big brother attitude.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Yeah LIFTIC, we always here “we love the troops God bless the troops” “They have my utmost respect”. Do they realize that most E-5’s with families are on food stamps for the reasons you and simplesimon stated ! But, I guess to say anything about that would be “bitching” . [/quote]
If there is any place that I feel my tax dollars are not wasted is when it comes to the military. They sqeeze every dime out of my money. I wish more of my support went to the troops. They deserve it, they earn it! We are not even coming close to paying them what they are worth for their self sacrifice, and service.
I agree they should not be able to complain about it since they signed up on their own. I disagree with what they are paid, and I think it is the American public’s fault for not complaining for them. They defend us, and we can’t repay the favor! They don’t have time to be involved if the political nonsense that goes on, and we betray them by not doing enough in return.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
It would be nice if we could itemize what we want our tax dollars to go for. I would give about 90% to the military, and 10% to everything else.
Then if a program goes broke - it’s because the american taxpayer didn’t want to fund it.[/quote]
but… Rainjack think of the poor starving politicians. How will they ever survive with us asking them to be accountable with the money we give them?
You are not being very sensitive to the needs of the Government to spend freely!
[quote]SimpleSimon wrote:
Supporters of Bush federal tax cuts neglect to take into consideration a few things. As the federal government takes in less money it should theoretically be spending less. However, due to many reasons this is not even close to being the case, which results in a federal deficit which is spiraling out of control. (I am not going to get into why this is bad, but it is).[/quote]
100% correct!
However, it is Congress that spends the money and the political reality is that they are a bunch of gutless wonders who cave to special interests groups who have power in their state.
Again you are correct!
I think the answer is in not cutting services to the people, but cutting the countless worthless bureaucratic jobs and departments which are not needed at the Federal level. Again, this takes guts and focus.
I think there is a fact of life that smoe miss. No one is truly “equal” in the United States, or anywhere else.
We are all born into families that have differeing income levels, political pull etc. The government should not be responsible for leveling your specific playing field, that is up to you. Go where you can afford to go, excell at what ever it is you do and eventually you will rise independent of the government.
Dead wrong! Unless you are talented, dedicated and willing to work really hard and smart you remain in the middle class. Luck has very little to do with it at that point.
The first law of economics will assure that “the rich get richer.” Unless of course someone is born into money who is a complete moron…that has happend.
Nonsense! Anyone with such character defects would not have been successful with a dump truck full of money. Success is not about others “giving” you things. It’s about independent responsibility. And the any other attributes which go into any success story at most any level.
Well let’s think about it. If you’re above the middle class, you are earning enough money to live quite comfortably. This is true even in the middle class. Lower middle class to Lower class experiences much less breathing room. They need the extra money more than the billionaires do. And I do believe that it all the layoffs and corporate restructuring that has happened, the guys at the top do not take a hit to their paychecks. How is that fair?
Sidenote: Albert Einstein took a look at U.S. economics in the Great Depression and decided that to stimulate the economy, you must put money back into the hands of consumers. That’s mostly lower and middle class people, last time I checked.
[quote]hspder wrote:
I can’t believe we’re still discussing this. The Tax Cuts that we’ve had in the past few years are about as irrelevant as they can be – saying they’re good (or bad) is like saying more butterflies flapping their wings are causing the extreme weather patterns we’re seeing this year.[/quote]
Not at all “irrelevant” and if you think they are I will PM you my home address and you can send me a check for $500! That is probably less than you recieved as a tax break so I’m sure you won’t miss it…don’t like that idea?
Congress appropriates funds not “the administration.”
I’d like to see a flat tax. 15%-17% across the board for everyone making over 30-K per year. Under that figure you are exempt from any sort of income tax.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I said privatize S.S. and do away with the rest. The EPA is a worthless piece of bureaucratic crap.
You have a problem with people becoming wealthy and allowing competition to drive down costs?
You don’t own a business, do you? It is evident in you pro-big brother attitude.
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Hey complain about the beurocracy all you want…I agree…just don’t do it while you’re still breathing somewhat clean air. We wouldn’t need gov’t watchdog agencies if we could trust big business to do what’s right. I’d rather err on the side of caution and pay 60% of my check to knowing that something was happening worthwhile.
And yes I do have a problem with competition because at its root is the greed for wealth–that is all their is in the end. And what is there to show for it but the few getting wealthy…the very few (less than .0000001). The same few who cut workers compensation while giving themselves raises and lobbying congress for tax breaks and protection from the laws that everyone else (read average people) have to follow…boo-hoo poor rich me.
The wealthy contribute nothing to society of real value. By real value I mean the things that make life worth living–the arts, and science. They only create stuff. In the end they drive home from a big day of schmoozing and boozing to their secluded, gated, suburban palaces and shut themselves off from the rest of the world only raising their voices when Uncle Sam wants something from them. Since they don’t contribute any of their kin to gov’t service (unless it’s in the form of elected office) they can pay more for the services we provide for them with our blood, sweat and tears as I stated above. American capitalism is a very exclusive club with extremely high dues–they should pay the fees and be proud to be doing such a patriotic service.
ASIDE: This is a site where I often read about the virtue of moderation yet I always see people defending corporate greed in the political forums.
How is it Europe does not have the same problems with paying taxes that we do? Is it because they can see the bigger picture? Is it possible to have big business and competition without the corporate greed and whining about paying a measly 50% to the gov’t in this country?
While I would love to see more gov’t intervention especially in the health care area there are those that think decent health care is a privilege and should only be afforded to those willing to pay for it. This is complete shite! It is the privatization of HMOs that has driven the cost of health care through the roof. The market drives the price (don?t even try to say it?s the lawyers causing the problems). While the rich keep getting richer and the poor staying the same or getting poorer it is the latter who are the ones who lose because the increasing costs become even more burdensome. How is this fair in a free society? Unemployed and uninsured? Forget about getting sick or hurt. You will acquire a debt that you will never be able to pay; which will further drag you down and will ultimately cost the taxpayers more to fix.
Simple Simon,
The tax cuts are shown to have helped INCREASE government revenue. It happened between last year and this year as a matter of fact. Lower taxes don’t mean less revenue if they lead to a larger pool of income from which the tax revenue comes.
Think of the laffer curve. At its most absurd tax rate of 100%, what do you think government revenue is? That’s right, zero because no one would work with a 100% tax rate. At a lower but still confiscatory 50% tax rate the gov’t revenue would be higher.
At some point there is an ideal tax rate that encourages producivity and gives the gov’t sufficient revenue. I agree with spending cuts, totally, but there’s a huge difference between gov’t spending and trade deficit. Quit buying foreign products if you don’t like the deficit. If you buy foreign stuff because it’s cheaper, tell your congressman to quit putting all of the absurd regs on domestic companies, or, better yet, lower their tax rates to make it worth being in the businesses that the foreign countries’ companies are kicking our asses in! Here’s a good little article by one of the best guys around on the deficit if anyone’s interested:
Why are you so willing to give over so much of your paycheck? 60%? This is more a question than anything. I’ve never seen anyone so willing to give over so much of their paycheck (even extreme liberals). Is this how much you think it takes to run our government for everyone to give over 60% of their paycheck? I’m glad you’re willing to do it, because I’m not.
You have a problem with competition? What country are you from? You know communism was built on the premise of equal sharing for all; look how well that worked out. Ask Russia. I’m highly competitive. I also always strive to make more money. Does this make me greedy? Money gives you choices. I like choices. Again, you seem to be very jaded against anyone who makes money or wants to make money. Your bitterness seethes through your posts.
This quote rates highest on the bullshit meter. Basically our whole American society is built on free enterprise, being able to create goods and services that others want and make a profit from it. If I don’t deliver something you need or want, I won’t make money. Read the book “compassionate capitalism”; I think this will give you a much different view of our so-called evil, capitalistic society. The wealthy don’t contribute anything to society of real value?
First, they wouldn’t have become wealthy unless they provided a product/service that others wanted but what about after they create their wealth. Have you ever heard of J. Paul Getty; he contributed billions to create our network of public libraries we have around the country. Free to all citizens that would like to read books and educate their mind. Ever hear of Bill Gates? He’s contributing billions to fighting AIDs in third world countries. This stuff doesn’t happen without money.
After reading this section, all I have to say is you need to look deep inside yourself of why your so damn bitter against everyone who makes/has money. If it bothers you that much, leave the military, get a job, learn a trade, and make more money. Otherwise, accept the great service your providing for our country and stop being so bitter about it.
You obviously have a lot of opinions with very little facts to back them up. France has one of the highest tax rates in Europe. They also average unemployment in the 12% range. Coincidence? I don’t think so.
Believe it or not, I agree with you here. Everyone should have access to health care coverage. I don’t have a good answer for how to make this happen in reality however. If you do what Canada does and bring under the government realm, your waiting months sometimes to get operations done. On the other hand, our current system leaves many people without insurance. Also not good.
Actually it’s a lot of factors of why health care has gone through the roof. For one, we are coming out with new breakthroughs every day to fix a lot of the ailments that would kill us just years ago. The cost of all of these new breakthroughs are being passed down to us. On the other hand, Americans are paying more for these breakthroughs than any other country in the world. I say allow the same drugs to be imported from other countries to give us consumers choices and cheaper prices.
I agree that “life” is not fair. Being unemployed and uninsured sucks. I’ve been there many times. Yes, I make good money in my career but for the times I’ve been unemployed I actually took the gamble of not insuring myself since it cost so damn much monthly.
I think there is a breakdown in the moral fiber of this country and it stems from the polarization between quantity and quality. It?s a simple choice: Would I rather have more stuff or quality in the stuff I have. All arguments I make are from the perspective that I would rather have quality than quantity.
[quote]randman wrote:
Is this how much you think it takes to run our government for everyone to give over 60% of their paycheck? I’m glad you’re willing to do it, because I’m not.
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60% was an example figure–my attempt to use exaggeration to make a point.
Money is great–I love it because it allows me more time…funny thing the more money I have to make less time I seem to have. Money is a necessary evil and the struggle for more wealth than one need is the root of all evil. The problem is no one really knows how much he or she truly need.
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This quote rates highest on the bullshit meter. Basically our whole American society is built on free enterprise, being able to create goods and services that others want and make a profit from it. If I don’t deliver something you need or want, I won’t make money. [/quote]
This is the biggest lie of all time told to justify the actions of evil men. Marketing exist to create a “false” need. You ever watch late night television or sporting events or drive on the freeway or read newspapers? The ad agencies got you by the balls you don’t know who you really are. You are a prisoner to marketing.
Great you have two data points–that makes a strait line. Your theory must be true. Bill Gates is a guilt ridden individual who ripped off a friend (and business partner) in the name of greed and hardly counts as one I’d try to emulate.
Not bitter about rich people. I’m bitter about people who have everything and complain about paying measly taxes. I am bitter about greed and consumerism. I am bitter about 20% of the people taking 80% of the resources. I don’t expect you to understand the complex underlying issues.
Where is your data to back up this claim? Until you can give a good analysis this is merely COINCIDENCE.
Yeah, sorry I’m not a gambling man. I think the stress of waiting for an accident to happen that will ruin ones overall health much worse than an actual accident in the end. What kind of quality of life is that?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’d like to see a flat tax. 15%-17% across the board for everyone making over 30-K per year. Under that figure you are exempt from any sort of income tax.
No loopholes! None![/quote]
Actually the loophole would be for business expenses. Tax write offs for charitable contributions, and operating costs would still be allowed.
[quote]veruvius wrote:
Well let’s think about it. If you’re above the middle class, you are earning enough money to live quite comfortably. This is true even in the middle class. Lower middle class to Lower class experiences much less breathing room. They need the extra money more than the billionaires do. And I do believe that it all the layoffs and corporate restructuring that has happened, the guys at the top do not take a hit to their paychecks. How is that fair?
Sidenote: Albert Einstein took a look at U.S. economics in the Great Depression and decided that to stimulate the economy, you must put money back into the hands of consumers. That’s mostly lower and middle class people, last time I checked.[/quote]
Let me ask you something, if you tax a business do you think the business pays for it, or do they just raise prices on the consumer?
The struggle for more wealth than one needs is NOT the root of all evil. Putting money above everything and everyone else in your life (including your GOD) IS the root of all evil
I think I’m done responding after this post because some of the things you post are so ridiculous it borders on insanity. Marketing is a key component to creating a want (I didn’t say need) where there may not have been one before. Some products people need (food, water, shelter) and most products are what people want. I’m not going to get into a semantics battle with you on needs vs. wants. The bottomline is if I don’t create a product AND a marketing strategy and a distribution system to fill the want/need I’m not going to get paid. It’s still free enterprise. Does this make all “men” who do this evil? And btw, last time I checked, no one forces me to buy anything. I buy things because I either need or want them.
Actually there are hundreds if not thousands of examples, I’m just not going to post example after example here for an individual who already has his narrow mind made up on how the world works through his jaded lenses. The bottom line is a poor person and a rich person have one thing in common.
They have the power to choose. I choose to give billions to poor people. I choose to give a dollar to charity although I’m on food stamps. I choose to change my lot in life. I choose to give all of my wealth away to make angry, bitter military folks happy. I think Bill Gates is an excellent person to emulate on many levels. Is he perfect? No, but who is. I have many flaws but desire to gain more wealth is not one of them nor is it Bill’s.
What part did you miss about the top 20% of income earners paying nearly 80% of the taxes?
I think I am more than qualified to understand these complex underlying issues. Just because I’m challenging your narrow minded view of the world through your bitter lense doesn’t mean I don’t understand these issues. Considering I’m a well-read individual, have read thousands of books in my life time, have advanced engineering degrees, I think I can start to comprehend these “complex underlying issues”. I appreciate your concern for my potential lack of comprehension however.
And with your last comment, I’ve definitely decided to not waste anymore breath on you. I’m not going to spend any more of my time trying to open your mind to a different view of the world and back it up with data, analysis, articles and facts when you’ll continually challenge anything I send your way that might possibly contradict your tightly held opinions. It sounds like you’ve got you narrow, bitter mind already made up.