Again nothing is being trampled on with the things that are so often brought up. Companies have long had freedom to do what they want with employees. Are you suggesting that companies be forced to employ people that run counter to their values? Forced to employ people that cost them customers?
Should companies be forced to employ dumbasses who put this stuff out publicly?
Spengler would disagree.
This isnât an indication of curtailing free speech. Itâs about an employee potentially hurting the companyâs bottom line.
THIS is an indication that the right to free speech exists.
Iâm not sure what the argument is about.
*Which doesnât mean I endorse cancel culture. I hate snitches, in particular.
What I donât get is that all of us understand that corporations are only concerned with profit maximization. Disneyâs willing to get into bed with China even with all their SJW nonsense in their movies. Even the objective of allocating budgets for corporate social responsibility is to maximize profits by gaining goodwill from the public and/or increasing productivity by improving morale of employees.
Why does it turn into an ideological thing when it comes to stuff like employees saying dumb shit in public?
Iâm sure the company seeâs it that way. But they did punish him for his speech, so in general it is about free speech. Its unrealistic for a company to have control of what any of its employees, who are free citizens says or does outside of work hours. A slavemaster might think they have those rights. In western style democracies, you are not a feudal serf. Companies do try this on, and get a lot of compliance through fear, and peoples apathy for what their actual rights are.
Well it illustrates that you have rights, and in this day and age if you donât exercise them vocally, people will try and gaslighting you into thinking you donât have them.
If he didnât fight for it, like Iâm sure many people wouldnât do he wouldnât have gotten proper recompense. Its a good reminder for the rest of society that is apathetic because they donât think they are directly effected by what happens to a person that isnât them. It also wakes up companies that they have a responsibility to the laws of the land and not just their corporate interests.
When corporations were owned by people that were concerned with building and growing that business, they were only interested in what made money.
Today the people that built the companies, no longer own them. They are usually owned by multinationals. That one business, is probably just one of many owned by like minded powerful individuals eg George Soros, and others of the 1%. They have so much money they can afford to run one of their companies virtually into the ground, when they use that business to propagandise their political ideology. Think Gilette.
No itâs not. Not in the least. Free speech is something given by the State which keeps you free from prosecution if you choose to exercise it, not a private company. You may have a point if you make the claim that such companies lobby and get politicians elected to pass laws against free speech.
This is not the point. The point is that if an employee makes a statement that goes public and it gets circulated to the point that it can potentially affect their bottom line, then they will naturally take action.
Good for him. Iâm not saying companies donât fuck up. Iâm saying their actions are profit driven, not ideologically driven.
Corporations consists of TENS OF THOUSANDS of people with multiple layers of people involved in the decision making process. The ones at the top canât micromanage everything thatâs going on at the lower levels. An entire organization with thousands of people isnât going to purposefully run itself into the ground.
I did look at their campaign and IMO it was a miscalculation on their part when it came to the expected reception of their ads. This shit isnât done by one guy or a couple of guys at the top. Itâs done either by their inhouse advertising team and/or outsourced depending on the scope of the project and the conceptualization process alone involves weeks to months of pitches and planning based on perceived consumer demands.
Sure, you have people like Jobs who was heavily involved in the marketing and advertising aspects of his brand but he was not the norm.
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Again nothing is being trampled on with the things that are so often brought up. Companies have long had freedom to do what they want with employees.
Companies in America or anywhere else will try to get away with as much as they can, especially if no one puts up a fight. Thatâs why unions were invented. Sometimes they are justified other times they arenât. Even a company still has to obey the constitution. Heck the federal and state governments that are supposed to uphold the constitution regularly attempt to infringe citizens rights.
It depends, will the company be infringing the employees civil rights? If so which oneâs?
They may not be forced to keep them in their employ but if they want to terminate them without legal cause, they need to pay out the rest of the employeeâs contract.
We all know that in practice if a company canât fire you legally for a particular reason, they will come up with some other excuse that is unrelated, seemingly plausible, and you wonât have any practical legal recourse, to prove otherwise.
The same principles occur with tenants and landlords. You get some landlords that are unreasonable, and you get some tennants that are unreasonable. If the tenant breaks the conditions of the lease they can get evicted. The landlord owns the property but canât turn up anytime they want, or let themselves in without permission. They also canât terminate the lease without reason, before the contract ends. Both sides have rights and expectations, and reciprocal obligations.
In America I believe the Constitutional rights are inalienable. They are a recognition of god given rights, by the government. They are not granted by the government. If a government believes you are given free speech or some other"right" then they are not actually rights but are privileges. Most western countries, and maybe even your own( from memory I think you are in SE Asia?) are indeed like this when push comes to shove, they take your privileges away
That being said I understand what getting at.
Americans have a lot less labour rights, and mechanisms to address their rights than most other western nations.
Take Disney for example. They take a movie franchise, they make it woke fill it up with feminism, multiculturalism, LGBT, etc. The established fan base who makes them the most of their money, rejects the franchise, tells them they donât like it and wonât watch their next movie if they keep making the same mistakes. Disney ignores the fans and does more ideologically based movies. They keep doing it despite losing money on the investment. Will they go broke? Maybe, or perhaps they make it up on some other movie franchise that hasnât yet been tainted, or some other diversified product unrelated to movies. Whatever the reason they can afford to fund social justice propaganda, even if it doesnât make money.
The people working for the companies arenât intentionally running it into the ground, their just being good employees doing what theyâve been told to do.
SJW motives in a company donât sell more product, because they only appeal to a tiny minority of people, many of whom support the idea, but still have no intention of actually buying the product themselves.
Regarding Gilette, no matter what the fancy advertising agency with new ideas says, the final decision is always with the companyâs elite management, ie a couple of guys at the top.
Basic market research would have told them it was a real bad idea. I canât believe they didnât do research so I can only assume, they did, and they disregarded it anyway. A company that is interested in making money wouldnât go against the research.
Genuinely interested if you have an idea why Disney and other companies push the SJW line in their movies and shows, when the people who watch these shows donât actually like them, and stop watching them. I think they donât care what established viewers think. I think they are aimed at the younger generations, trying to indoctrinate them with wokeness, before they have a chance to know better.
Let me ask you a very simple question.
If you were part of middle management, hell, even senior management, and you knew the top guys in the company were trying to run itself into the ground because of ideology, what would you do?
Youâd be job hunting, right? You wouldnât want that shit on your CV, would you?
Now think about the dozens of departments and hundreds to thousands of people of different positions -individuals working in the same organization.
Then think about the companies that are subcontracted for these projects.
Do you not think at least a fraction of them would be privy to this and word would spread when peopleâs jobs and resumes are on the line?
If you were an established subcontractor, would you want that shit on your portfolio?
Which is more likely? Does Disney think all this SJW shit is what the audience wants, or are they trying to lose money to push an agenda?
EDIT
Look at how they panicked and retconned so much shit from The Last Jedi because of the backlash from fans and reshot and made multiple cuts of The Rise of Skywalker based on the reactions of multiple test audience screenings at different times. I was lmao-ing in the cinema.
And they donât. No one is controlling what they say or do; they are merely providing consequences.
For the billionth time companies arenât infringing on citizens rights if they fire them because of something they said. At least not in a large sense. Everything could be a case by case basis but again the courts have been quite clear and consistent with this. If they werenât wouldnât people be winning lawsuits left and right?
I think you donât realize how consistent the court has been in modern history on this stuff that you constantly think is a freedom of speech issue.
Honestly and Iâve said this numerous times your lack of knowledge about how the US works is something I canât really fix. Youâre constantly mixing up ideas and saying things that you apparently think are true that just arenât.
Iâm not blaming you I realize you arenât from here but it makes conversation incredibly tough.
Can a company fire an employee for a purely political stance on social media? Something as simple as âVote Democraticâ while working at a pipeline company? Does that violate their rights?
At-will employment. Something conservatives champion, ironically.
Iâm all for at-will employment, and I have no problem with the described employee being fired. I was just wondering if anyone would say his/her rights were being violated in that situation.
This is not true in the slightest. Companies can let people go without cause and do so all the time. You are paid for work already done (which is why paychecks lag employment start dates) but not for âthe rest of your contractâ. There is no obligation whatsoever to that.
Perhaps, if someone expressed a religious belief that PC cancel culture found offensive, it could be a violation since it could be seen as religious discrimination.
No disagreement there. You would need to take in the economic climate atm, which is pretty bad, so job security is not good, even if you still have a job. Depending upon how much dominance your current company has in the market, if you jump ship you might not find a comparable position in the same field.
There was a situation last year with Red Bull, and the marketing guys, and some upper level executives got the sack after trying to push through a woke marketing campaign. The big boss who started the company, is anti PC in business, and didnât want his company going that direction. People including 300 of his own employees complained he wasnât woke enough speaking out in favour of BLM.
He didnât care and I donât believe his business has suffered for it. He stood up to the pressure, because the 300 employees were just a drop in the ocean and didnât widely represent the feeling in the organisation, or the general public. Woke people threaten to boycott companies, which they never brought from anyway. In most cases its an idle threat. Its the general population and your fan base you donât want to piss off if you still want to make money.
Not so long ago I would have agreed with you. But because Disney still insists on doing the same thing, despite the audience in general telling them repeatedly that they donât like what they see. The only people praising it are woke reviewers, that shill for the company in a symbiotic relationship. Maybe a couple of woke Marxists praise the movie but they make up an insignificant percentage. Most people like that arenât even interested in Star Wars and donât want to watch the movies.
Realistically the average person is not going to able able to take their employer to court, if they think they have been wrongly dismissed. Its easier to lump it and move on.
One thing I do realise is that US work laws in general are way behind that of other western nations.Unless you are on a contract to your liking, you can easily get screwed by an employer if they choose to go hostile, and unreasonable, and getting redress is much harder.
Despite having more protection in some other countries it still doesnât stop many employers from doing bad things to their employees. They still try it on, and they get away most of the time if the employee doesnât put up a fight, or is unaware of their rights.
I can understand that approach if the employee isnât under a contract, but a contact is a binding legal document that both sides are legally bound to. Unless you breech that contract for a specific listed reason they cant summarily fire you without paying out the contract. Many contracts have clauses about public statements, or out of work behavior. If your contract doesnât stipulate that, then they canât fire you for unspecified reasons, and not pay you out.
But you would anticipate that your current company is going to topple anyway, right? Unless they promised you a large severance pay and bonus like the fucking investment banks did in the mortgage crisis for dumping shit on others and fucking up your credibility forever in the industry, would you not at least be searching for a new job while youâre still employed?
I am not sure what really happened so I can only go by your description here. Red Bullâs brand doesnât tie in with anything woke from what I recall so itâs not surprising that that they wouldnât want to go with a woke marketing campaign. It would have been the right decision regardless of whether the boss was woke or not. It would be as dumb as Gillette going PC.
Youâre looking at corporate culture here. 90% of IT people Iâve worked with are woke. IT companies therefore develop woke cultures from top down. If they didnât, then it would affect productivity, they would lose current and potential talent, and it would affect their bottom line.
Which is why earlier I brought up corporate social responsibility. You could interpret this as taking a loss to while becoming âwokeâ or the bosses having a sudden spiritual awakening and deciding to give shit away but itâs really to create goodwill amongst potential consumers and/or increase employee morale for long term profit gain.
Come on. Disney made a live action version of Mulan for the China market with a budget of 200 million dollars. Thatâs more than the budget of every MCU movie without an ensemble cast and every single Transformer movie.
They cast Liu Yifei as the lead, whoâs ONLY well known in China, along with Donnie Yen(the Ip Man series, Rogue One) and Jet Li, to appeal to the China audience. They fucked it up so badly the China audience hated it. It was a simple case of not knowing your audience. Iâve written somewhere else China audiences love MARVEL movies because theyâre from Hollywood and they have BIG EXPLOSIONS and shit. They have their own big budget local movies, which are mostly Hollywood movie ripoffs, if they want to see stuff with an all-Chinese cast.
They also tried to appeal to the woke audience in the US by using a shitty female director and screenwriter but they pissed off the Asians in the US because they werenât not Asian. And they filmed it near Xinjiang, which is where the Uyghurâs are being held. And they pissed off the China audience because they didnât know shit about Chinese culture, which isnât because they werenât Chinese, but because they didnât grow up in China and didnât bother to do enough research. I know White dudes who have lived there for decades and they speak better Mandarin than me and probably also know more about Chinese culture since they have an avid interest in it while I take most things for granted. It was a simple case of stupidity and miscalculation.
Also the company if its like Disney wonât totally get run into the ground. They might wreck a movie franchise like Star Wars in an attempt to make it woke, but make it up in other movies that either havenât been wokified, or donât cater to most Stars Wars fans, like Rom Coms. Like you mention, with Mulan, its not primarily made for westerners. Iâm betting the Chinese people and govt wouldnât put up with SJW bullshit, unless its been sanctioned by the state. The movie wouldnât be allowed to be shown otherwise. China is definitely a lucrative market, if Hollywood chooses to cater to it properly.
I canât think of any woke tv show or movie that the usual audience actually likes. Universally they donât make a profit, get cancelled, because they donât appeal to enough people. Maybe there are some, but I canât think of any.
There have been plenty of arthouse cinema that has been good, but hasnât made a killing at the box office. They were never intended too. They had govt funding, were subsised by the production company. The difference is the story and the script were genuinely good. With the woke stuff, the story and characters are all secondary to the woke message, and it comes off as badly made propaganda.
Wandering Earth sounds interesting, I donât mind the Chinese perspective on a movie genre. I will keep my eye out for that. We get plenty of movies from mainland China, shown on free to air tv, on one of our publicly owned stations in Australia.