To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001).
Current T level is 548ng/dL and no kids in the foreseeable future. @oglebee 100% I am normal guy who has a slightly above average physique. Now, I don’t plan to get huge and rip sleeves, I really just want to fill the sleeve nicely (size large). Does anyone else measure gains by the clothes in their closet too? LOL
Aside from all that was discussed, which I greatly appreciate…I see my goal is a stretch, but as long as I put on some size I really think I’d be happier with my body. I don’t by any means need to be shredded by the end of this I just want mass and slight definition.
Can someone clarify this? I thought on a 300mg TEST E cycle most won’t need to regulate e2 unless symptoms occur? So if I do experience symptoms, what exactly is harder about regulating?
Speaking from my own personal experience, I needed AI at 300mg but at a dosage that was too small to be reliably and consistently administered with anything except compounded pharma arimidex at 0.125mg dosages (which is very expensive and difficult to acquire). I would often take 0.375-0.5mg split across a week. Aromasin is easier to dose but has its own downsides, and many people prefer arimidex for first cycles because if you crash your E2 with adex, it recovers quickly whereas aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor.
At 500 test per week I can easily just take 0.5mg non-compounded arimidex a couple times per week without crashing my E2.
E2 response is highly variable between individuals, though.
If your gonna cite a study. Tell me why you are citing and how it relates to what I am saying either in support or against. Don’t just assume that I am going to know why you are including it and what your point is. I am for the most part a dumb dumb and I need things explained to me in one syllable possibly two syllable words.
But I read it and can only assume you must believe I think more test does not = more muscle gains. Which I haven’t the foggiest idea where you might have gotten that from anything I said. If you could show me where I made that claim I would appreciate it.
Or perhaps you misinterpreted what I had posted. That is also a possibility.
If your able to go read what I posted and properly asses what my viewpoint is and you want to have a discussion on why I have that viewpoint then fair enough I can totally get that. But looks to me like you might have hastily read through my posts and have no idea what I was saying.
Ok well you can do big cycles if you want. My philosophy is take the smallest amount to get the most amount of results. I don’t think it is worth the risk of taking yourself beyond the upper physiological range. That is my ethos. That is how I would navigate these sorts of problems.
If someone wants to be an elite IFBB pro BB ,competitive NPC competitor or some elite pro athlete then sure do what your going to do. I am not experienced in the slightest with those sorts of individuals.
This guys target goal is 175 lbs at 10 % body fat. Which is a good goal. One that many should aspire towards. What I mean is just being lean, healthy and strong for your height.
But it is a goal that I think can easily be achieved with very very minimal input with drugs. Honestly, the dude could very probably do that without drugs.
Huge is relative and you probably don’t think your huge because your on the extreme end of the spectrum. Far right of the curve. Your a dedicated gym rat who is so dedicated to your goal that you’ve decided to enhance yourself. Most people would think that crazy. So yeah your perspective is going to be a little different.
I don’t think the OP shares your perspective though. And also I am again coming from the viewpoint that 99 % of people don’t want to be IFBB pros. They just want to look and feel good. And for those people 5’10 210 lbs 16 % bf. That is the apex right there for them.
How long have you been running gear?
I really feel like forums do a disservice to people. I am saying that assuming you get a lot of your information form forums (which I do too so not talking shit regarding that) and I think perhaps you might be underestimating the potency of 200 mg cruise.
Again everyone is different. No one size fits all when it comes to human physiology. Look at trends apply to a person and adjust the algorithm accordingly. That is how we should approach these things.
But yeah I bet you could make many more improvements in terms of size, strength and leanness . Perhaps not as fast if you were taking your test through the roof. But I think you might be surprised at the results you have if you just stayed on continued to have every other aspect of your approach on point.
Hey man I think your goal is great and obtainable. 175 at 10 % looks great.
I’ve been 215 at probably 12 % and I’ve been the same at 175 maybe a bit leaner.
And then I’ve taken a long hiatus from the lifestyle and become totally deconditioned and just look like a normal dude who is just has more mass. And let me tell you at 215 I was not happy with how I looked or performed. For record I am 5’9, had 17.5 in arms, 330 bench, reped 500 lbs on squat, 600 lb deadlift and that probably wasn’t even my true max, could do over 100 bw dips, or 15 dips with 135 lbs in plates hanging, 30 decent pull ups in a row.
Then I dropped to 175 lbs felt tiny. Then stopped living the lifestyle completely as focused entirely shifted elsewhere.
So my point is if I could go back to 175 lbs in shaped lean and conditioned. I would and I would be very happy with that.
You could take a gram of test and maybe not need an aromatase inhibitors . Its variable. look at the trends apply them to you and adjust according to how your body responds.
You have it on hand. If you notice any sensitivity and pain in the area start taking something for the estrogen. You very likely wouldn’t grow breasts over night. Although, you could.
That another reason why I like the TRT approach one less variable to worry about.
Ahh someone who freaking agrees with me. Yeah man however you want to approach it. Many ways to get the job done. Just think its better for people that don’t really have incredibly loft goals to maybe just err on the side of caution and go a little lighter on the cycles.
Yep - no worries. Just remember E2 response is highly variable. Some guys never need an AI at all on 500mg or more and some need a fair bit. Some do fine with elevated E2 levels and others have to keep it lower to feel good.
Ideally you would never dose AI or only dose it PRN. I dosed it PRN until it was obvious I needed it regularly while on cycle.
I’m on my second blast right now. Been on trt for about a year and a half. First cycle was 325 mg/wk with 50 mg of var for the last 7 weeks. I didn’t get a whole lot out of that cycle. I’m currently about 4 weeks into my second blast of 600 mg test per week. I’ll add tbol for the last 6 weeks of the 16 weeks. I see this as moderate, but others have a different risk reward analysis than me. I know others that think my gear use is pedestrian.
@jsnc87 Has made a post here outlining a proposed cycle and has made it clear he intends to PCT off at the end. You arrive and disagree with my thoughts. That’s fine, it really is. But then you double down and recommend he take 175mg/wk - a replacement dose at the high end - for his cycle knowing full well he’s going to PCT. According to the above study, on average, across 20 weeks, men at 125mg/wk put on 3.4kg of lean mass.
You’re suggesting this guy run a 12 week cycle at replacement doses and then go through the physical stress (and possible slight atrophy) of PCT for what, 2.5kg of lean mass? Really?
No dude, people got up my ass about what I was posting so I had to expand upon it. I wouldn’t say double down.
Do you think that study was done with gym rats dude. Or do you think perhaps it was done with average blokes who most likely are not so savvy with their training or diet.
I am suggesting don’t put drugs in your body. But if your going to put drugs in your body. Put the smallest amount. You will probably have better results than you expected.
I was not suggesting he run a 12 week cycle at trt doses. Do people even read before they respond? I stated I don’t think people should hop on cycle like that. At 33 he should just stay on.
Although initially I did say start at 300 and titrate up just to ease into and see how is body responds. And I also said I personally thought sust was better.
I say this out of genuine concern for the human being.
Holy fucking hell. Who would have thought encouraging people err on the side of caution and be safe was so controversial.
10 days 7 days. I mean after a long time on you have enough deconate where I think you could easily get away with every 10 days. But yeah maybe it isn’t.
It’s not clear here whether you were referring to a cruise or blast dose. If you’re saying that 175mg/wk should be his cruise dose, OK. I would suggest starting lower than that for a cruise/blast setup. I still think 300mg for 12 weeks for a multi-month PCT is a bad trade.
Especially if you’re going to PCT, go 16-20 weeks @ 500mg. That’s my opinion anyway.
I really just was saying start with 300 mgs. Never was saying don’t do 500 for 12. Although I ve already said I think trt for his goals much better approach won’t rehash that.
But what if he has really strong side effcts. His BP goes through the roof. Most people don’t know they are hypertensive. There are obvious signs but people are often oblivious to them. Hypertension can kill. It is the “silent killer”.
What if he has high aromatase activity in his body and just a little bit of extra test sends his estrogen through the roof and he gets gynocomastia or horrible anxiety.
Not too mention increased atherosclerotic plaque development.
Increased hermatocrit.
What if he takes his aromatase inhibitor crashes his estrogen. Doesn’t know feels “fine”. Risks to bone density, drug metabolism.
Just so many things that could go wrong. Most likely wont go wrong. But still could. There is a risk. So why not ease into.
I used to not have this mentality. I’ve grown a lot in the last couple years. I really just want people to be safe and take care of themselves.
I mean that if you are already on trt with a reasonable trt dose, that running a low dose cycle(s) makes sense. The risk reward calculation changes as shutdown is no longer a risk. Long term risks like cardio vascular and liver/kidney issues become the larger risks. I think if shutdown is no longer a risk, then I’m okay with less gains. If shutdown (which is effectively the same at 300 mg and 500mg) is a risk, then getting more results makes more sense to a point.
I think using 5-600 if you can do it without an ai is about right, but it is a personal decision.
I think a case can be made for this approach if using sustanon especially for trt. It is designed for low frequency injections, which is an advantage.
I also think the cons with sustanon outweigh the pros. It can be quite a bit more expensive, and I don’t like it for cycling for a couple reasons. Since cycling one would normally use a higher dose than trt. I think the spikes when doing this make it harder to manage. You could be smoother hormonally with test e or c. The second is for guys doing PCT. Those long esters are going to stick around for way longer than test e or c. PCT should start once t levels are at or below natural levels. I guess I would rather wait 3-4 weeks than 8 to pct. It is less risk to shutdown to use test ace or prop as the shortest effective cycle. The downside to that is EOD pinning. Test e /c is a good middle ground for most people.
Also, because most who cycle don’t have the proper knowledge to cycle, they run sustanon, then wait 3 weeks to PCT. Because of this many get an ineffective recovery. It isn’t sustanon’s fault, just what happens.