'Don't Judge Children Wearing Pirate Costumes'

Off Topic
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[quote]Cortes wrote:

Not sure, to be honest. It’s not something I’ve had to deal with and hopefully I will never have to. I do know from personal experience that EVERY person I’ve ever met who has been socially maladjusted, culturally deviant, or defined themselves based upon their sexuality has had some childhood trauma or lacked two loving, engaged parents. In that sense, I think we’re saying the same thing. Where I diverge is that I feel it is a responsible act of love to shield your child from certain potentially harmful social situations.
[/quote]

I think you’ve shown you place high value on conforming to social norms, and that you do not value those who fall outside of those norms. They’re “maladjusted” or “deviants”.

Your anecdotes don’t really carry any weight here, I’ve met plenty of horrid people who conform to those same cultural norms that you hold in such high regard.

Moving on, I found you last sentence fascinating. Where you see yourself as a shield, I see myself as a net. I’m a bit older than you, and I don’t know if you have children but I know where the desire comes from to protect them from any and all threats, real or imagined. As hard as you try, you’re not going to be able to do it. You can’t protect them from every other child who thinks that your son is too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, too smart, too dumb, has the wrong clothes, lives in the wrong part of town, has the wrong parents, or any other of the myriad things children can use to target other kids.

And you shouldn’t. Your child - my children - need to find out who they are and how they relate to the world around them. And they’re going to discover if they haven’t already that sometimes other kids can be cruel. But denying your child the ability to navigate life for themselves and to discover those things that give their life meaning is even crueler.

As parents, we prepare our children to be adults. You’re doing your child a disservice by thinking your shielding them from harm by not allowing them to express themselves. This doesn’t mean placing them in imminent danger. It means allowing them to take a pottery class if that’s what speaks to them, to pursue music or art instead of sports if that’s what makes their heart sing, and to wear a dress to school if that’s what makes them feel at home in the world.

I’m a net. When they fall down, I’m there to comfort them. When they fail, I teach them how to learn from their mistakes, and when life becomes cruel, and it will, they know that they have a place in the world where they’re loved just for being themselves. They don’t have to do anything, or be anything other than themselves.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Not sure, to be honest. It’s not something I’ve had to deal with and hopefully I will never have to. I do know from personal experience that EVERY person I’ve ever met who has been socially maladjusted, culturally deviant, or defined themselves based upon their sexuality has had some childhood trauma or lacked two loving, engaged parents. In that sense, I think we’re saying the same thing. Where I diverge is that I feel it is a responsible act of love to shield your child from certain potentially harmful social situations.
[/quote]

I think you’ve shown you place high value on conforming to social norms, and that you do not value those who fall outside of those norms. They’re “maladjusted” or “deviants”.

Your anecdotes don’t really carry any weight here, I’ve met plenty of horrid people who conform to those same cultural norms that you hold in such high regard.

Moving on, I found you last sentence fascinating. Where you see yourself as a shield, I see myself as a net. I’m a bit older than you, and I don’t know if you have children but I know where the desire comes from to protect them from any and all threats, real or imagined. As hard as you try, you’re not going to be able to do it. You can’t protect them from every other child who thinks that your son is too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, too smart, too dumb, has the wrong clothes, lives in the wrong part of town, has the wrong parents, or any other of the myriad things children can use to target other kids.

And you shouldn’t. Your child - my children - need to find out who they are and how they relate to the world around them. And they’re going to discover if they haven’t already that sometimes other kids can be cruel. But denying your child the ability to navigate life for themselves and to discover those things that give their life meaning is even crueler.

As parents, we prepare our children to be adults. You’re doing your child a disservice by thinking your shielding them from harm by not allowing them to express themselves. This doesn’t mean placing them in imminent danger. It means allowing them to take a pottery class if that’s what speaks to them, to pursue music or art instead of sports if that’s what makes their heart sing, and to wear a dress to school if that’s what makes them feel at home in the world.

I’m a net. When they fall down, I’m there to comfort them. When they fail, I teach them how to learn from their mistakes, and when life becomes cruel, and it will, they know that they have a place in the world where they’re loved just for being themselves. They don’t have to do anything, or be anything other than themselves.[/quote]

You can save the oblique chastising. You can really save the blanket compartmentalization of my parenting style into a simple box. I am VERY open minded about my sons’ (yes, I have two) desires and the directions they want to take. I am not talking about shielding my sons from ALL hardship. I’m talking about saving them from a life of social hell. I’m talking about ONE situation. Wearing a girl’s Halloween costume to school every day. If you don’t think you are obligated to ever step in and take a stand in your children’s lives in such situations, that’s your prerogative. But don’t project your own lack of conviction and extreme permissiveness to be the other side of my authoritarianism. <== See how that works both ways?

I’m not so simple or naive as to be psychoanalyzed by an anonymous stranger on the net. I’m sure you don’t feel you are, either, so kindly refrain from doing so and stick to the argument at hand, if you expect me to continue.

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But unbifurcated garments are SOOOOOOOOOOOO comfortable! I mean, I’d stick to kilts and tunics but you can’t penalize the boy for wanting a pleasant breeze.

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Admitedly the kid wearing a pink frilly dress is a much trickier issue than the 'pirate costume one. That being said, let’s face it, most kids, hell, most fully grown adults are comformist pussycakes & will do pretty much do EVERYTHING in their power to ‘fit in’ & avoid the wrath of social derision. If this kid starts to take a ton of shit for wearing a dress, he’ll more than likely stop of his own accord OR he’ll ride it out. Either way, he’ll learn an important life lesson.

Also, if people think wearing a pink dress is tantamount to abuse…how about:

Sending kids to Sunday School.
Not buying them fashionable/expensive clothes.
Teaching them to talk properly/posh.
Encouraging them to study ‘geekier’ subjects such as science etc.

Of course, none of the above are equal to wearing a pink dress, though, if you wanna go down the: Carrie voice ‘They’re all gonna laugh at you!’ road, their is a LOT more to weigh up than than merely how much their dress/behaviour goes against the grain.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

I’m a net. When they fall down, I’m there to comfort them. When they fail, I teach them how to learn from their mistakes, and when life becomes cruel, and it will, they know that they have a place in the world where they’re loved just for being themselves. They don’t have to do anything, or be anything other than themselves.[/quote]

I just want to say you have written some very insightful stuff throughout his conversation.

I have two girls so I can’t really say how I would respond but if they want to wear pirate costumes who cares.

With that said we have generally always let our children dress themselves as long as it was not too revealing.

I can say that my youngest had a propensity for wearing rather peculiar outfits, but we figured she is expressing herself and gave her as much control in this little thing as possible. Was she ever made fun of? Sure, kids are cruel, but she had enough confidence to tell them to shove it.

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[quote]Cortes wrote:
[/quote]

Did you read the article IH posted? What are your impressions of it?

What would this “social hell” look like that you’d be protecting your son against?

Frankly, it sounds as though you live in a very rigid environment where individual expression isn’t valued. I could see how that would make life more difficult for anyone wishing to express themselves in different ways. I don’t know this, I just suspect it.

I do know that when I pick my kids up from school this afternoon - Catholic school - the lesbian parents are going to be there, and so will the gay couple. And the transgendered woman will be there picking up her son as well wearing her dress. And when I’m on the sidewalk waiting for the kids to be dismissed, I can practically guarantee that there will be males walking down the street in some form of feminine clothing. Maybe not a dress, but stuff like off-the-shoulder sweatshirts (think Flashdance), girl jeans, a skirt with Docs, etc.

Really, my entire point of view can be distilled down to this: It’s no big deal.

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[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]IchibodCrane wrote:
maybe this kid simply doesn’t have the experience to understand gender roles in his society yet and your post is wasted typing.

A sensible parent would teach the why behind the what as cortes said, not encourage ignorance under the false pretense of acceptance. This would carry the danger of externally influencing the kid to develop a feminine self perception. Nature and nurture both are important and at a young stage, kids need to be nurtured appropriately.[/quote]

HoustonGuy with a nice and eerie themed name…

I like it.[/quote]

Hahaha, well spotted!

And I suppose ‘‘Crane’’ is more about that giraffe-looking machine that hoists Houstonguy’s cargos up.

You were right about him coming back around this time of the year. Lol.

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This conversation is just silly. Boys don’t wear dresses. Life isn’t a high school, anti-establishment punk rock clique. Even those dudes outgrow their bullshit.

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[quote]IchibodCrane wrote:
This conversation is just silly. Boys don’t wear dresses. Life isn’t a high school, anti-establishment punk rock clique. Even those dudes outgrow their bullshit.[/quote]

Then let them outgrow it.

I thought I remembered you saying that you had a son. What would you tell him if he wanted to wear a dress around the house? Or how about to the playground?

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]IchibodCrane wrote:
This conversation is just silly. Boys don’t wear dresses. Life isn’t a high school, anti-establishment punk rock clique. Even those dudes outgrow their bullshit.[/quote]

Then let them outgrow it.

I thought I remembered you saying that you had a son. What would you tell him if he wanted to wear a dress around the house? Or how about to the playground?
[/quote]

Wait HoustonGuy has a son?

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[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Wait HoustonGuy has a son?
[/quote]

I thought so. I remember a thread about disciplining children where HG and BG went back and forth about spanking. I’m pretty sure he said he had a son in that thread and was pro-spanking. BG felt that spanking was ineffective. HG was tied up in knots attempting to explain why if spanking is so effective, he needs to keep doing it.

I might be wrong.

On a completely different note, I always thought it was “Ichibob”.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
DN: I think I’m missing your point. Are you saying these are the only 4 possible scenarios. Or the most likely? Or just the first 4 you thought of?

[/quote]

I was merely trying to echo some of DB’s points in regards to the external world’s response to a boy wearing a dress, and how some people will just imply, and in most cases, fear that a boy will grow up to be gay if he wears a dress – a THING, a piece of garment that society has assigned to a specific gender. Because society says dresses should be for girls, it is the norm, just as society states that the sky is blue and we conform to it, we accept it, even though the sky’s colour may as well be grey or orange or dark. But that’s another argument for another day.

It is also interesting to see how some parents will have no issue with dressing their girls as boys, and yet, they will shit their pants when the boys start showing signs of femininity. Others parents will not allow their daughter to dress manly, worrying that she’ll become a lesbian, even though the little girl may just find boys clothing more comfortable, or wants to feel more powerful, like superman or batman instead of the weakling Barbie. Doesn’t mean she’ll necessarily turn gay.

I sense more homophobia, as in not hatred for gays, lesbians and transgenders, but primarily FEAR, from the parents rather than that nurturing bullshit some are using in order to conceal their unease or their prejudices toward certain sexual orientation that they deem inappropriate, or worse, abnormal.

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[quote]Testy1 wrote:

Wait HoustonGuy has a son?
[/quote]

Yes.

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[quote]jskrabac wrote:

You’re still a superheroine in my eyes :wink:

/cheese[/quote]

Aaaaaawww :slight_smile:

Stop it with the cheese!!

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

Frankly, it sounds as though you live in a very rigid environment where individual expression isn’t valued. I could see how that would make life more difficult for anyone wishing to express themselves in different ways. I don’t know this, I just suspect it.

[/quote]

Look. Before we go on, let’s get something straight.

If you make one more comment insinuating that I am some kind of rigid authoritarian who doesn’t allow his kids the room to grow into their own healthy individuals, you can take up the argument with someone else from that point on. I’m not here for you to libel me to support your argument. You want to stick to the topic at hand, that’s fine. I’m all in. But I see what you are doing, it’s called poisoning the well. It’s a sneaky rhetorical tactic and I do not appreciate it.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

I was a weak, socially awkward, bookish kid myself who never joined a school sports team. I got picked on and bullied until high school, and felt more comfortable reading fantasy novels than playing pick-up football with the neighborhood kids.I was in the drama club in both jr. high and high school, and I went through some very weird-ass phases throughout my youth, including some extremely questionable fashion choices.I also had a large circle of friends, and my childhood was not unhappy. It had its high points and its low points,like most childhoods do.

My dad was a hard-ass, old-world my way or the highway style parent, but he was not an authoritarian monster. He and I butted heads about certain things. Sometimes I got my way. Sometimes I didn’t. Sometimes his motivations were selfless and well intentioned, sometimes they were selfish and based upon his own narcissism. My mother was a strong Catholic who was also extremely understanding and accepting. My childhood was neither black nor white, like most childhoods.

I use a shield when a shield is necessary. I use a net when the situation calls for a net. I don’t limit myself to one tool. I use the tool that works best for each particular situation.

You don’t know me. You don’t know how I make my decisions, but I can assure you that you are mistaken in your assumptions about me. My first son is physically rather inept. He’s easily scared, afraid to take the (physical) chances that more athletic kids his age don’t think twice about, and needs a lot of support. I don’t look at this as behavior that “needs fixin.” I understand that he is extremely artistic and creative, loves music, singing and acting, has a very active, highly developed imagination and language faculties, and is probably more suited to be an artist or performer than a football player or prom king.

I have no problem, none, with any of this. If he WAS super athletic and less intellectually gifted, I would have no problem with this, either. If he BECOMES athletic and decides to forgo art, that’s cool with me, too. If he wants to join ballet troupe, so long as he doesn’t want to wear the tutu and he is joining it because he really wants to, I’ll support that, as well. I’ll come to his recitals. I actually really love the ballet, and often attend my students’ recitals. I take him and he absolutely loves going, actually. Talks about it for days afterward.

I’m not talking about rigid conformity. I’m talking about not wearing a dress to school, causing a disruption and making a spectacle of yourself in an environment where the point is for students to focus upon education. I’m talking about teaching my child that certain rules that adults have to follow also have to be followed as children. The vast majority of adult males are not able to come to work wearing a skirt one day, singing, “I gotta be me.” That’s REALITY. REALITY is one of the things kids are not clear on at first, and it helps them when they receive a clear message from their parents as to how to function in it.

Now, you want to talk about this last paragraph? If so, feel free to continue. But drop the intellectual chicanery. If that’s the only way you can make your point, go poison someone else’s well.

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[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
DN: I think I’m missing your point. Are you saying these are the only 4 possible scenarios. Or the most likely? Or just the first 4 you thought of?

[/quote]

I was merely trying to echo some of DB’s points in regards to the external world’s response to a boy wearing a dress, and how some people will just imply, and in most cases, fear that a boy will grow up to be gay if he wears a dress – a THING, a piece of garment that society has assigned to a specific gender. Because society says dresses should be for girls, it is the norm, just as society states that the sky is blue and we conform to it, we accept it, even though the sky’s colour may as well be grey or orange or dark. But that’s another argument for another day.

[/quote]

Because cultural norms and mores are mutable is not an argument that they are necessarily without value. In fact, usually, when a large group of people mutually agree upon certain behaviors as “good” or “bad,” there is almost invariably a damned good reason for it.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Frankly, it sounds as though you live in a very rigid environment where individual expression isn’t valued. I could see how that would make life more difficult for anyone wishing to express themselves in different ways. I don’t know this, I just suspect it.
[/quote]

Are you fucking serious? What kind of dumbass feels confident in making that claim about someone he’s never met for even 30 seconds? Now I feel like I’ve wasted my time reading all your posts, because as it turns out, you’re just an idiot.

From reading Cortez’s posts, I didn’t get the picture AT ALL that he instituted some rigid authoritarian environment where individual expression is repressed. I can scarcely believe you are that stupid.

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[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Frankly, it sounds as though you live in a very rigid environment where individual expression isn’t valued. I could see how that would make life more difficult for anyone wishing to express themselves in different ways. I don’t know this, I just suspect it.
[/quote]

Are you fucking serious? What kind of dumbass feels confident in making that claim about someone he’s never met for even 30 seconds? Now I feel like I’ve wasted my time reading all your posts, because as it turns out, you’re just an idiot.

From reading Cortez’s posts, I didn’t get the picture AT ALL that he instituted some rigid authoritarian environment where individual expression is repressed. I can scarcely believe you are that stupid.[/quote]

He’s been dropping these little insinuations throughout the thread. This was just the most blatant iteration of it.

Thanks, btw.

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Reread the sentences you quoted. I didn’t discuss you, I discussed your environment. You never said “I would forbid my son from wearing the dress” so I purposely didn’t focus on you. You mentioned “social hell” and cultural norms, so that’s what I focused on. Anyways, I’m not trying to offend, so I’ll gladly move away from your particular situation and into the land of hypotheticals.

Your second-to-last paragraph is simply an argument for dress codes in school. If a child wearing a dress (if my child in a dress) is deemed by the school to be disruptive and interferes with my child and other kids education, then they are well within their right to send my kid home. And I’ll have prepared my kid for that eventuality and we’ll find other ways (and times) for his to express himself.

But that wasn’t the original discussion. A dress code would cover any type of disruptive clothing, we’re talking specifically about a boy in a dress.

And I’ll ask again: What were your impressions of the article IH posted?

What type of answers from an 8 year old would be acceptable if a boy did want to wear a dress and a parent questioned his motivation?

Lastly, do you think conclusions can be drawn about a child’s sexuality based on what they choose to wear?

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
As parents, we prepare our children to be adults. You’re doing your child a disservice by thinking your shielding them from harm by not allowing them to express themselves.[/quote]

How’s this quote then? Fucking guy…