You give me a pass because I don’t live there? I know what it’s like there. I’ve lived in Bristol amongst a large Afro-Caribbean population. I’m well aware of all the major social problems in the black community. It’s the same in Britain as the US. The same West African people. The same problems the world over. A large percentage of West Africans live a dysfunctional existence; high criminality, poor impulse control - they jump to violence at the drop of a hat at any perceived slight against their ridiculous hyper-masculinity; dysfunctional matriarchal families with multiple kids from different fathers, none of whom have anything to do with their kids. And I know how the liberal majority responds and fosters and enables the dysfunction and victim mentality. I have real insight into their problems; you have a fantasy about blank slates and racist society holding them back.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
You give me a pass because I don’t live there? I know what it’s like there. I’ve lived in Bristol amongst a large Afro-Caribbean population. I’m well aware of all the major social problems in the black community. It’s the same in Britain as the US. The same West African people. The same problems the world over. A large percentage of West Africans live a dysfunctional existence; high criminality, poor impulse control - they jump to violence at the drop of a hat at any perceived slight against their ridiculous hyper-masculinity; dysfunctional matriarchal families with multiple kids from different fathers, none of whom have anything to do with their kids. And I know how the liberal majority responds and fosters and enables the dysfunction and victim mentality. I have real insight into their problems; you have a fantasy about blank slates and racist society holding them back. [/quote]
I don’t have a fantasy about blank slates at all. I’ve been arguing the whole time that we are wired to be good, from babies we are wired to understand and develop a sense of justice, we are wired to be empathetic. I’m diametrically opposed to the idea that we are complete tabula raza’s.
I believe we are all inclined to be good. We are all a little different, but we are more alike than different. What we experience shapes the majority of our reality. I don’t think you have it right at all about people being wired to have high criminality or poor impulse control. The way I read it, I think you have a totally backwards way of looking at people.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
You give me a pass because I don’t live there? I know what it’s like there. I’ve lived in Bristol amongst a large Afro-Caribbean population. I’m well aware of all the major social problems in the black community. It’s the same in Britain as the US. The same West African people. The same problems the world over. A large percentage of West Africans live a dysfunctional existence; high criminality, poor impulse control - they jump to violence at the drop of a hat at any perceived slight against their ridiculous hyper-masculinity; dysfunctional matriarchal families with multiple kids from different fathers, none of whom have anything to do with their kids. And I know how the liberal majority responds and fosters and enables the dysfunction and victim mentality. I have real insight into their problems; you have a fantasy about blank slates and racist society holding them back. [/quote]
I don’t have a fantasy about blank slates at all. I’ve been arguing the whole time that we are wired to be good, from babies we are wired to understand and develop a sense of justice, we are wired to be empathetic. I’m diametrically opposed to the idea that we are complete tabula raza’s.
I believe we are all inclined to be good. We are all a little different, but we are more alike than different. What we experience shapes the majority of our reality. I don’t think you have it right at all about people being wired to have high criminality or poor impulse control. The way I read it, I think you have a totally backwards way of looking at people. [/quote]
Firstly, about people being “wired for high criminality or impulse control” - the important point is I’m not a “biological determinist”. I know that there are many other factors unrelated to biology that shape a person.
And secondly, my pessimism about man’s nature is about all mankind.
I don’t have anything “backwards”, I have a realist perspective and insight into human nature. I know that there are people who are essentially “good”. But they’re the exception. I’m not sure if you’re saying that most people are good or that all people are inherently good or at least potentially so; either way, I find it difficult to understand how you would get that idea.
SM’s recent posts here are exceptionally accurate and true.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Right, and how the fuck am I supposed to supply you with that proof? [/quote]
You can’t and that is the point. So you take the typical leftist, lazy, thoughtless and baseless tact of “black people can’t get justice” which blatantly implies you mean “the entire criminal justice system is racist.”
If by “limp dick excuse” you mean relevant factors that contribute to the skew in numbers, many of which have zero to do with skin color, then yes, I’ll continue to do so.
[quote] So, you go ahead and keep your big pie hole going about how just the courts are.
Would you put money on something like, for every 1 black person and 1 white person going into court, I get 1 dollar for every black convictions and you get 1 dollar for every white. Remember this is proportional, 1 to 1. Who walks away with more money?[/quote]
Sure. Why not. Let’s gamble on other people’s misery. If that floats your boat, fine.
No, our system isn’t perfect, and even when it was set up it was clearly fucking explained that it wouldn’t be. We’re humans, we aren’t perfect, therefore our systems will never be perfect.
It’s not about race, it’s about MONEY…if a black man can afford a good lawyer, he has a much better chance of getting off.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It’s not about race, it’s about MONEY…if a black man can afford a good lawyer, he has a much better chance of getting off.[/quote]
No there are other races/cultures that have lower crime rates based on their income. Sure its a factor but not the only one.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It’s not about race, it’s about MONEY…if a black man can afford a good lawyer, he has a much better chance of getting off.[/quote]
No there are other races/cultures that have lower crime rates based on their income. Sure its a factor but not the only one.[/quote]
Affording excellent legal counsel is the absolute best way to stay out of jail.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Right, and how the fuck am I supposed to supply you with that proof? What better proof is out there other than the data? If I bring up things like conviction rates, and death penalty you will have some other limp dick excuse as to why the numbers are the way they are. So, you go ahead and keep your big pie hole going about how just the courts are.[/quote]
The vast majority of the black population in the U.S. live in terrible socioeconomic situations.
Historically, terrible socioeconomic situations lead to higher incidences of crime.
Higher incidences of crime tends to lead to harsher laws/harsher interpretation of existing laws in order to crack down on crime.
Etc. etc. etc.
You don’t need to point to racism or a flawed system to explain the disproportionate prison system. The disproportionate socioeconomic situation of the various races explains it pretty well for the most part.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Right, and how the fuck am I supposed to supply you with that proof? What better proof is out there other than the data? If I bring up things like conviction rates, and death penalty you will have some other limp dick excuse as to why the numbers are the way they are. So, you go ahead and keep your big pie hole going about how just the courts are.[/quote]
The vast majority of the black population in the U.S. live in terrible socioeconomic situations.
Historically, terrible socioeconomic situations lead to higher incidences of crime.
Higher incidences of crime tends to lead to harsher laws/harsher interpretation of existing laws in order to crack down on crime.
Etc. etc. etc.
You don’t need to point to racism or a flawed system to explain the disproportionate prison system. The disproportionate socioeconomic situation of the various races explains it pretty well for the most part.[/quote]
Precisely. It’s just sad it gets twisted based on the agenda of the week. I’ve always thought that employment is the key, the family unit is a close second. Let’s first get these folks working, and learning to work. Only then we can address chronic family dysfunction.
There was a good write-up on ace of spades about whatever is subsidized, you end up getting more of it.
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/352855.php
[i]It’s an important concept because once you understand it, it becomes crystal clear that government “aid” programs MUST always fail at their stated purpose. Last week, we discussed how the greatest government power is the power to spend. It’s really the only tool in their toolbox. Yes, they can throw you in jail, but after they do that, then what? They have to spend money to feed and house you, and you can’t throw everybody in jail. The only way a government can “aid” anyone is to spend money, and as soon as government does that, people or organizations move to capture the money being spent. Here’s an example: Starting in the mid-60s, government moved to “aid” single women with children. A noble goal, you might claim, and you might even be right, but what has happened to the illegitimacy rate since then? In 1964, 8% of children born to whites in the US were illegitimate, it was 26% among blacks. In 2012 those rates had risen to 30% and 72% respectively. Now, government aid is hardly the only factor contributing to the explosion of illegitimacy in this country, social mores have changed drastically as well, but a case can be made that a large factor in the social change was driven by the presence of government aid.
Consider that a woman having a child out of wedlock before the welfare state would incur a huge financial burden, not just on herself but on her family as well. Social mores did not spring forth from a vacuum, they are one way that a society guides it’s members towards behavior that is perceived to be beneficial to the individual and to society as a whole. By frowning on out of wedlock births, society limited their occurrence, protecting the individual from the financial penalty of such births, while at the same time limiting the negative financial impact on society as a whole.
After the welfare state, however, the financial consequences to the individual of an out of wedlock birth were, to a large extent, eliminated or at least minimized, is it any wonder that social mores changed as well? The old mores were no longer appropriate or necessary, so naturally they fell away. To come round back to the point, government set out to “aid” single mothers by spending money, and the result was a whole lot more single mothers. It got more of what it subsidized.[/i]
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Right, and how the fuck am I supposed to supply you with that proof? What better proof is out there other than the data? If I bring up things like conviction rates, and death penalty you will have some other limp dick excuse as to why the numbers are the way they are. So, you go ahead and keep your big pie hole going about how just the courts are.[/quote]
The vast majority of the black population in the U.S. live in terrible socioeconomic situations.
Historically, terrible socioeconomic situations lead to higher incidences of crime.
Higher incidences of crime tends to lead to harsher laws/harsher interpretation of existing laws in order to crack down on crime.
Etc. etc. etc.
You don’t need to point to racism or a flawed system to explain the disproportionate prison system. The disproportionate socioeconomic situation of the various races explains it pretty well for the most part.[/quote]
Precisely. It’s just sad it gets twisted based on the agenda of the week. I’ve always thought that employment is the key, the family unit is a close second. Let’s first get these folks working, and learning to work. Only then we can address chronic family dysfunction.
[/quote]
What none of you seem to get is that while all of the explanations you have given are true, those explanations don’t make any sort of attempt in themselves to explain away racism any more than the many specific examples I can give prove it is more difficult for certain people to experience the same system of justice as others.
In reality, statistics have been the things that point out racism when it comes to policymaking. Racism is also an aspect of policy, a strong example of how policy can be racist are the actions taken, and examples of that are mandatory sentencing for certain types of crimes that only certain demographics of people commit, while laxing other crimes that other demographics commit. Having mandatory sentencing to be, “tough on crime.” Singling out certain demographics of criminals is just one example of this sort of racism.
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before. [/quote]
are you seriously suggesting that significant amounts of innocent black people are going to jail because of racism and/or guilty black people are receiving disproportionate sentences due to racism? (maybe you have a case for about 1 in 100,000 convictions, being extremely generous).
if so it is absolutely laughable and embarrassing.
maybe hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of black people are in jail because they actually committed a crime rather than it’s just those damn racist whiteys fault.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
What none of you seem to get is that while all of the explanations you have given are true, those explanations don’t make any sort of attempt in themselves to explain away racism any more than the many specific examples I can give prove it is more difficult for certain people to experience the same system of justice as others.[/quote]
You don’t need to explain away racism; it’s not an all or nothing. Are there racist judges? Of course. Everyone has their prejudices and it will surely affect the way they perceive things, and thus their actions. No doubt certain laws are influenced by the prejudices of the people who write them.
But I simply cannot imagine racism being a significant part of the justice system. The ACLU and and the NAACP would be all over actual established instances of racism.
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before. [/quote]
are you seriously suggesting that significant amounts of innocent black people are going to jail because of racism and/or guilty black people are receiving disproportionate sentences due to racism? (maybe you have a case for about 1 in 100,000 convictions, being extremely generous).
if so it is absolutely laughable and embarrassing.
maybe hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of black people are in jail because they actually committed a crime rather than it’s just those damn racist whiteys fault. [/quote]
I’m asserting that not only do a disproportionate amount of innocent blacks end up in jail, but that the laws themselves target their demographics under tough on crime laws as I have already explained, as are the sentences themselves harsher.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before. [/quote]
are you seriously suggesting that significant amounts of innocent black people are going to jail because of racism and/or guilty black people are receiving disproportionate sentences due to racism? (maybe you have a case for about 1 in 100,000 convictions, being extremely generous).
if so it is absolutely laughable and embarrassing.
maybe hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of black people are in jail because they actually committed a crime rather than it’s just those damn racist whiteys fault. [/quote]
I’m asserting that not only do a disproportionate amount of innocent blacks end up in jail, but that the laws themselves target their demographics under tough on crime laws as I have already explained, as are the sentences themselves harsher. [/quote]
how many “innocent” blacks do you estimate are currently in jail right now?
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before. [/quote]
are you seriously suggesting that significant amounts of innocent black people are going to jail because of racism and/or guilty black people are receiving disproportionate sentences due to racism? (maybe you have a case for about 1 in 100,000 convictions, being extremely generous).
if so it is absolutely laughable and embarrassing.
maybe hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of black people are in jail because they actually committed a crime rather than it’s just those damn racist whiteys fault. [/quote]
I’m asserting that not only do a disproportionate amount of innocent blacks end up in jail, but that the laws themselves target their demographics under tough on crime laws as I have already explained, as are the sentences themselves harsher. [/quote]
how many “innocent” blacks do you estimate are currently in jail right now?[/quote]
It’s not for me to estimate actually. There are plenty of examples, I would site data that actually supports my argument but I don’t think there is enough of it, just being honest… That doesn’t mean there will be eventually. Some of what I could bring up are statistics from those exonerated due to DNA testing. Wrongfully imprisoned blacks and whites are being released.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/African_American_Wrongful_Convictions_Today.php
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/African_American_Wrongful_Convictions_Throughout_History.php
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before. [/quote]
are you seriously suggesting that significant amounts of innocent black people are going to jail because of racism and/or guilty black people are receiving disproportionate sentences due to racism? (maybe you have a case for about 1 in 100,000 convictions, being extremely generous).
if so it is absolutely laughable and embarrassing.
maybe hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of black people are in jail because they actually committed a crime rather than it’s just those damn racist whiteys fault. [/quote]
I’m asserting that not only do a disproportionate amount of innocent blacks end up in jail, but that the laws themselves target their demographics under tough on crime laws as I have already explained, as are the sentences themselves harsher. [/quote]
how many “innocent” blacks do you estimate are currently in jail right now?[/quote]
It’s not for me to estimate actually. There are plenty of examples, I would site data that actually supports my argument but I don’t think there is enough of it, just being honest… That doesn’t mean there will be eventually. Some of what I could bring up are statistics from those exonerated due to DNA testing. Wrongfully imprisoned blacks and whites are being released.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/African_American_Wrongful_Convictions_Today.php
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/African_American_Wrongful_Convictions_Throughout_History.php[/quote]
So when exactly will Al and Jesse march for the wrongfully accused whites ?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]TheCB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It doesn’t even account for actual racist judges, juries, etc as in the Frimpong case that I’ve brought up here before. [/quote]
are you seriously suggesting that significant amounts of innocent black people are going to jail because of racism and/or guilty black people are receiving disproportionate sentences due to racism? (maybe you have a case for about 1 in 100,000 convictions, being extremely generous).
if so it is absolutely laughable and embarrassing.
maybe hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of black people are in jail because they actually committed a crime rather than it’s just those damn racist whiteys fault. [/quote]
I’m asserting that not only do a disproportionate amount of innocent blacks end up in jail, but that the laws themselves target their demographics under tough on crime laws as I have already explained, as are the sentences themselves harsher. [/quote]
how many “innocent” blacks do you estimate are currently in jail right now?[/quote]
It’s not for me to estimate actually. There are plenty of examples, I would site data that actually supports my argument but I don’t think there is enough of it, just being honest… That doesn’t mean there will be eventually. Some of what I could bring up are statistics from those exonerated due to DNA testing. Wrongfully imprisoned blacks and whites are being released.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/African_American_Wrongful_Convictions_Today.php
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/African_American_Wrongful_Convictions_Throughout_History.php[/quote]
So when exactly will Al and Jesse march for the wrongfully accused whites ?[/quote]
Did you read the article? I’m not trying to claim it’s the end all be all, but the statistics show that the majority of people exonerated via dna evidence are black, and among all races they are 60+% of those being exonerated.
While I think the innocence project is a noble endeavor, they’re not without their misdeeds