Does Satan Exist?

The sheer self importance that man puts on himself is nothing short of breath taking.

Have you ever to stop and think about the sheer baffling scale of the universe? In our nearest Neighboring galaxy Andromeda their are between 8-10,000,000,000 stars. Our own milky way is of a similar size.

The Hubble space telescope took a 2 arbatory shots of the sky it found no less than approx 1000 galaxies in each shot.

It is believed that their are 10,000,000,000 - 20,000,000,000 Other galaxies.

Now encase you are a bit shoddy at maths lets take a wild stab at a number in the middle of the stars that leaves?

15,000,000,000,000,000,000 Stars.

And that is only the observable universe!

Why would an all powerful creater god give a flying fuck if you are having unpure thoughts at this minute in time? Ready to put you to eternal suffering for thinking about “fornicating” an Act you are HARD WIRED to do. Pro-Creation is your number 1 Drive.

The sad truth children is that to any sort of Creator being we are of less magnitude to a him as a neutron is to us… Thats not even an atom.

When was the last time you gave any thought to what the atom that makes up part of the cell membrane on the very tip of your left nut was doing? Exactly.

We are nothing more than a collection of very gradual jumps in complexity that took place over billions of years. To think that such a book was written by a God for our benift is so Fucking absurd that it should really baffle anyone with a logical thought more developed than that of a 6 year old.

The fact that we are still having conversations about a book written by a bunch of bronze and iron age men is a fucking tragedy.

From the god delusions book.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I see what you’re getting at, but I think it is a quagmire. Relativism is an abyss.

Who decides what the absolute truth is?
[/quote]

It is the abyss that we live in day by day. The decider of truth is the one who can impose and enforce their viewpoints.

Religion, which may or may not ultimately be an interpretation of some truth, is simply a way to impose beliefs and customs upon people as well.

I’m not saying this in order to judge religion, government, or any other human organizational system, but it is easy to analyze in this manner.

Nations impose behavior through legal systems and enforcement. Societies impose behavior through socialization processes. Religions impose behavior through persuasion, punishment and reward. Economies impose behavior through punishment and reward also.

Now, which systems, if any, are correct or true, may be impossible to determine.

In the end, we are all the arbiters of our own truth… and we yield or struggle to varying degrees with the powers that are arrayed around us.

It is our faith, our belief, our rationality, our emotions that we use to decide what we, individually, believe and hold true.

Luckily, we share enough commonality, beyond language, to help most of us coexist.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Does the existence of a house imply the existence of a carpenter?

Do the actions of the murderers of that little boy imply the existence of some ‘force’ that inspired them to do such heinous acts?[/quote]

I don’t think so. It’s convenient to blame an “inspiring force”. There are evil people out there. Most of the damage is done out of stupidity though. Stupid people are far more dangerous than evil people, because of their sheer numbers.

But evil exists. That doesn’t mean there’s such a thing as a conscious being we call satan.

I used to be against capital punishment. Growing older, I’m starting to have my doubts. What should we do with this family? They can’t be treated. They can never return to society.

Should we spend the taxes paid by the family of the victims to keep them locked up untill they die a natural death? Who’s to say some do-gooder with a degree in psychology won’t decide they’ve been “cured” and let them loose on society again? Stupidity is far more dangerous than evil. And what better way to hide your stupidity than behind a prestigeous diploma?

On the other hand, I don’t trust judges and juries either. If we give them the tool of the capital punishment, I’m sure they’ll find some innocent people to kill.

But to answer your question: no, Satan does not exist. Some humans don’t need Satan to behave like this.

[quote]vroom wrote:
nephorm wrote:
I see what you’re getting at, but I think it is a quagmire. Relativism is an abyss.

Who decides what the absolute truth is?

It is the abyss that we live in day by day. The decider of truth is the one who can impose and enforce their viewpoints.

Religion, which may or may not ultimately be an interpretation of some truth, is simply a way to impose beliefs and customs upon people as well.

I’m not saying this in order to judge religion, government, or any other human organizational system, but it is easy to analyze in this manner.

Nations impose behavior through legal systems and enforcement. Societies impose behavior through socialization processes. Religions impose behavior through persuasion, punishment and reward. Economies impose behavior through punishment and reward also.

Now, which systems, if any, are correct or true, may be impossible to determine.

In the end, we are all the arbiters of our own truth… and we yield or struggle to varying degrees with the powers that are arrayed around us.

It is our faith, our belief, our rationality, our emotions that we use to decide what we, individually, believe and hold true.

Luckily, we share enough commonality, beyond language, to help most of us coexist.[/quote]

perhaps a better description would be accepted truth is relative.

True truth isn’t decided upon, nor does it conform to anyone.

Instead it is what it is.

Each and every society has the right to create, and accept whatever they wish to be truth, but that doesn’t make it so. That would only be what they choose to accept as truth. Which is always relative.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Does the existence of a house imply the existence of a carpenter?

Do the actions of the murderers of that little boy imply the existence of some ‘force’ that inspired them to do such heinous acts?

I don’t think so. It’s convenient to blame an “inspiring force”. There are evil people out there. Most of the damage is done out of stupidity though. Stupid people are far more dangerous than evil people, because of their sheer numbers.

But evil exists. That doesn’t mean there’s such a thing as a conscious being we call satan.

I used to be against capital punishment. Growing older, I’m starting to have my doubts. What should we do with this family? They can’t be treated. They can never return to society.

Should we spend the taxes paid by the family of the victims to keep them locked up untill they die a natural death? Who’s to say some do-gooder with a degree in psychology won’t decide they’ve been “cured” and let them loose on society again? Stupidity is far more dangerous than evil. And what better way to hide your stupidity than behind a prestigeous diploma?

On the other hand, I don’t trust judges and juries either. If we give them the tool of the capital punishment, I’m sure they’ll find some innocent people to kill.

But to answer your question: no, Satan does not exist. Some humans don’t need Satan to behave like this.[/quote]

A civil discussion between Wreckless and myself…who’d have thought it possible?

Anyway, I know most people would put these down as hallucinations but: (1) I was engaged to a wonderful woman who died of heart failure 2 days before her 24th birthday. This woman, besides being a fabulous person, was brilliant — her research was supported by the National Science Foundation, at our university. That night, a voice like none I’ve ever heard said to me (as I lay on my bed): ‘The Spirit’. It was a voice like the ocean. Dreaming? Hallucinating? Nothing can convince me of that.

(2) In a clear voice, not the same as the ‘oceanic’ voice: “Go adopt a little girl from China.” That one was on the drive home from work (and our daughter is now 5).

Crazy stuff? One more…my wife and son were driving in a van in front of me. Suddenly, her van’s engine died. Next thing we saw, a woman in a van shot across the road and plowed into a road sign. My wife and son would have been T-boned.

That van never did that before and never did that again.

Outside the realm of reason? Sure. But I saw and heard.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Anyway, I know most people would put these down as hallucinations but: (1) I was engaged to a wonderful woman who died of heart failure 2 days before her 24th birthday. This woman, besides being a fabulous person, was brilliant — her research was supported by the National Science Foundation, at our university. That night, a voice like none I’ve ever heard said to me (as I lay on my bed): ‘The Spirit’. It was a voice like the ocean. Dreaming? Hallucinating? Nothing can convince me of that.

(2) In a clear voice, not the same as the ‘oceanic’ voice: “Go adopt a little girl from China.” That one was on the drive home from work (and our daughter is now 5).

Crazy stuff? One more…my wife and son were driving in a van in front of me. Suddenly, her van’s engine died. Next thing we saw, a woman in a van shot across the road and plowed into a road sign. My wife and son would have been T-boned.

That van never did that before and never did that again.

Outside the realm of reason? Sure. But I saw and heard.

[/quote]

I am sorry, but this is not crazy, it is not weird, and it is not out of the realm of reason.

This happens to me fairly regularly. It is almost always before sleep(but it has happened elsewhere). I researched it for a while and learned that it is a fairly common affliction for millions of people, in fact, most everyone is likely to have it happen at least once in their life. It has to do with being half awake and half dreaming.

Your subconscious has effectively taken over, but you still feel conscious.

Not always associated, but common things that go along with these sorts of episodes are, cold sweat, paralysis, paranoia, euphoria…etc.

It has nothing to do with god, the unknown or any ‘force’ outside of your own brain.

Similarly, when driving for a while it is very easy for your brain to zone out and find yourself in a similar sort of half-state as when you rest. I have heard voices in my head when driving.

Sometimes, I will just be sitting around, and I will hear music in my head, clearer than any stereo and completely unlike any music I have ever heard. But as soon as I realize what is going on, and try and consciously pick it apart, it immediately stops.

It’s weird stuff, yes, but it is not god. That being said, make of it what you will, the point of god has never been anything other than the manifestation of man’s potential. You used your reasoning of what you thought god was to adopt a little girl and forever better her and your life. You can go on believing it is god for the rest of your life, it is inconsequential.

Here is something to ponder though. I do have experiences like yours regularly enough to actually begin to understand them. Would I be just in using these illusions to convince people that my beliefs are right/true/absolute…etc. you say god spoke to you(or some heavenly entity) well, it’s spoken to me a lot more, does that make me chosen or prophetic or otherwise a spiritual leader? or maybe I’m a sociopath, screw-loose whacko. It’s a thin line I think.

Headhunter, Julian Jaynes argues that auditory hallucinations are vestigial features of our brain’s organization. That is, before we had consciousness as we know it, along with the powers to work out solutions to novel problems in that conscious mind, we experienced auditory hallucinations that would give advice during times of crisis. Same mechanism (processing of information), different mode of expression.

I’m not saying that’s what you experienced, but I’ve always found that to be an interesting topic. I haven’t read The Origins of Consciousness since middle school, but it’s a great, interesting read.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Headhunter, Julian Jaynes argues that auditory hallucinations are vestigial features of our brain’s organization. That is, before we had consciousness as we know it, along with the powers to work out solutions to novel problems in that conscious mind, we experienced auditory hallucinations that would give advice during times of crisis. Same mechanism (processing of information), different mode of expression.

I’m not saying that’s what you experienced, but I’ve always found that to be an interesting topic. I haven’t read The Origins of Consciousness since middle school, but it’s a great, interesting read. [/quote]

I was just going to mention this book. It is very interesting and Jaynes’s historical analysis is excellent, which makes his theories seem convincing to me.

Dustin

[quote]haney1 wrote:

perhaps a better description would be accepted truth is relative.

True truth isn’t decided upon, nor does it conform to anyone.

Instead it is what it is.

Each and every society has the right to create, and accept whatever they wish to be truth, but that doesn’t make it so. That would only be what they choose to accept as truth. Which is always relative.

[/quote]

HANEY!!!

I think I agree with you on this.

My point has been, the truth as we know it today may be found to be different tomorrow.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
haney1 wrote:

perhaps a better description would be accepted truth is relative.

True truth isn’t decided upon, nor does it conform to anyone.

Instead it is what it is.

Each and every society has the right to create, and accept whatever they wish to be truth, but that doesn’t make it so. That would only be what they choose to accept as truth. Which is always relative.

HANEY!!!

I think I agree with you on this.

My point has been, the truth as we know it today may be found to be different tomorrow.

[/quote]

Funny. I would never have argued this point with you if I thought it was what you were saying.

I don’t oppose this idea. I do oppose the idea that ALL truth is relative.

With that being said I thing the pursuit of knowing real truth should be the most important thing for all people. I am not intersted in living my whole life believing something that is a lie. If there is a God I want to know Him, if there is no God I want to spend time doing something else (perhaps knowing my self better).

As futile as this goal is… I gladly accept it.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
haney1 wrote:

perhaps a better description would be accepted truth is relative.

True truth isn’t decided upon, nor does it conform to anyone.

Instead it is what it is.

Each and every society has the right to create, and accept whatever they wish to be truth, but that doesn’t make it so. That would only be what they choose to accept as truth. Which is always relative.

HANEY!!!

I think I agree with you on this.

My point has been, the truth as we know it today may be found to be different tomorrow.

[/quote]

You agree with him by saying the opposite?

Definitions are NOT rubber, made to be twisted into anything we wish. MAN is MAN and his defining characteristic doesn’t change, relative to whether he is Caucasian and living in NY, or an Abo living in the Outback.

It amazes me how no one expects other beings (such as animals) to have rubber definitions, to have a pattern of existence, but MAN can be anything we want to twist, that morality is relative to ones culture. Would we agree that widows, for ex, can be thrown upon their husbands funeral pyre in one culture and its moral and correct, while in another its abhorrent? Ludicrous.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Would we agree that widows, for ex, can be thrown upon their husbands funeral pyre in one culture and its moral and correct, while in another its abhorrent? Ludicrous.
[/quote]

OctoberGirl already used that as an example of an alternative “truth.”

When OctoberGirl says “truth” I read “conviction,” and then I think we are both on the same page.

[quote]haney1 wrote:
perhaps a better description would be accepted truth is relative.

True truth isn’t decided upon, nor does it conform to anyone.

Instead it is what it is.
[/quote]

Haney,

Unfortunately, it already gets hairy to get to this point.

Who says there even is any such thing as “the truth” or “true truth”? There never has been so far.

As humankind develops deeper understandings it changes behavior and expectations. However, perhaps understanding is an infinite progression, just like integer numbers, such that there is in fact no end to it.

If there is no end, if it is infinite, then the “absolute truth” can never be achieved. Then there is always something else to understand and integrate. There is always one more integer to be added to the end…

In fact, given that scope and scale itself may influence understanding and perception, the infinities of mathematics itself may show that there can be no absolute understanding or truth, ever.

If there were, or is, an absolute truth, how do you know that it allows for societies to create and accept truths?

Anyhow, on planet Earth, all people have employed relative truths for all time. I’d conjecture that there is no such thing as absolute truth, both because there are infinite concepts that can thus never be fully grasped and because truth itself only exists as a construct of intelligent thought.

If it is in fact a construct, it must be influenced by the being that accepts it or defines it, and thus is relative to that being.

Furthermore, mankind is in no way capable of understanding anything approaching something so grand as “the truth” or “true truth” so we’ll have to continue making due with our current scheme of relative truths for the foreseeable future.

Sorry to all those seeking aggrandizement, but according to any hints at greater truths that we think we might now have, this is explicitly not for us. In English, we should not seek to wrap ourselves up in the truth so that we can judge others with that truth.

Does that sound familiar to anyone?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
It amazes me how no one expects other beings (such as animals) to have rubber definitions, to have a pattern of existence, but MAN can be anything we want to twist, that morality is relative to ones culture. Would we agree that widows, for ex, can be thrown upon their husbands funeral pyre in one culture and its moral and correct, while in another its abhorrent? Ludicrous.[/quote]

Headhunter,

You may need to think a little deeper. Not too long ago the world had a lot of slavery going on. It had existed for ages and ages.

Based on our current understanding, we see that it was wrong.

There was a time that women could not vote. There was a time that women were considered secondary to men. Based on our current understanding, we see that it was wrong.

Understanding that something is wrong is based on having some understanding of why something might be wrong.

For example, not too long ago gay people were an entirely ostracized segment of the population. Some would argue that they still are today. This is an area of understanding that is spreading through society right now. Both views, that it is right and wrong, are currently being argued over.

Now, there are some cultures that have not come to our level of understanding. They still do things that are atrocious to our sensibilities. In fact, there is always something horrible going on somewhere in the world.

Are you suggesting that “you” know “the truth” and should thus go and enforce that truth on the world? Will the ensuing wars and conflict that occur when you do that be better than the customs in place?

Maybe. However, maybe there is a path to increased understanding that doesn’t require the use of military might? Maybe it’s not possible to control everyone on the planet when they do things we don’t agree with? Maybe there are less obvious questions such that the correct answer is very subjective.

Sure, you can pick wild extreme examples and get general consensus, but what if you decided gay marriage was as big an outrage. What then would you do about countries that had allowed it?

Alternately, perhaps you decided that all drugs were the bane of mankind. What would you do about countries that had decided to legalize various types of drugs? What would you do about alcohol? What do you do about prostitution? What do you do about countries with younger ages of consent and legal marriage?

There are many issues that are not simply defined as right and wrong on a clear cut basis, though a lot of people will feel very strongly about it.

Instead of wasting your time getting indignant about it, like you have the script for humanity in all cases, just because you see some blatant examples we all agree on, perhaps it would be more productive to consider how it might be possible to elevate the level of understanding in cultures that don’t measure up to our own standards?

If you look at things in that light, it is a lot easier to come up with productive solutions… instead of wrapping yourself in the authority of “truth” and enforcing that viewpoint on the planet.

Why? Because even though you may have a better understanding, that doesn’t mean other people will recognize your understanding or your authority.

As with my prior post, I’d guess that truth is a continuum, and as we progress along we realize mistakes we have made in the past based on the deeper understanding we have gained. Instead of castigating people for having different understandings, perhaps we can encourage them to catch up?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
It amazes me how no one expects other beings (such as animals) to have rubber definitions, to have a pattern of existence, but MAN can be anything we want…[/quote]

By the way… other animals do not face the plasticities that we face.

They don’t have physics, automobiles, lunar landings, nuclear power plants, writing, math, literature, art, music, agriculture, architecture, computers, philosophy, and so on.

Mankind grows and changes rapidly as new areas of understanding are developed and applied both to ourselves and to our universe. This occurs to us personally in our own lives and over time as a species.

Other animals generally plod around on instinct and apparently are fairly content to stay alive and stay fed. Not us. We’ve been fighting over abstractions and enforcing our views on the world since before recorded history.

It amazes me that someone would not expect there to be fundamental differences between animals and mankind, as we are a very different sort of animal.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Haney,

Unfortunately, it already gets hairy to get to this point.

Who says there even is any such thing as “the truth” or “true truth”? There never has been so far.
[/quote]
I think we can all agree that there are things at a basic level which are true, and things that are untrue. So truth is the absence of something that is false.

I would agree that we can’t obtain it. It goes with the saying the finite can’t understand the infinite. Using your numbers analogy though, all would agree that each number has its correct place, and changing that pattern would ultimate void all following numbers. Hence the truth would follow an exact pattern. So while human kind can never find the full truth, it can find true truths, and those truths are not subject to deviation.

That doesn’t change the fact that it would exist. It would just change our understanding of what it encompasses.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am saying that claimed truths are subject to what we decide to accept. So that being the case whatever we choose to accpet would be our accepted truth. That in no way validates ones truth as real truth. It would just be what you choose to accept.

Unless there is a “creator” or would define such things. which would not leave it up to us. similiar to God created time, but does not exist with in time. If I remember correctly you aren’t an atheist so you would consider this possibility, unless you are a diest.

[quote]
Furthermore, mankind is in no way capable of understanding anything approaching something so grand as “the truth” or “true truth” so we’ll have to continue making due with our current scheme of relative truths for the foreseeable future.

Sorry to all those seeking aggrandizement, but according to any hints at greater truths that we think we might now have, this is explicitly not for us. In English, we should not seek to wrap ourselves up in the truth so that we can judge others with that truth.

Does that sound familiar to anyone?[/quote]

See that is the other problem. assuming one did obtain “truth” I don’t think that judgement from certain said enlighted person would be their first intention. Although it might be a by product.

at this point though we are talking philosophy, and I am very weak in this subject. My brain is hurting as is.

Maybe that is why I stick with theology, and history?

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Would we agree that widows, for ex, can be thrown upon their husbands funeral pyre in one culture and its moral and correct, while in another its abhorrent? Ludicrous.

OctoberGirl already used that as an example of an alternative “truth.”

When OctoberGirl says “truth” I read “conviction,” and then I think we are both on the same page.[/quote]

I would agree. freakin semantics!

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I don’t oppose this idea. I do oppose the idea that ALL truth is relative.
[/quote]

All ‘truth’ might not be relative, but you’ll be lucky to find a universal concept of what is ‘true’: at the very least you’d be dealing with different conditions for what constitutes evidence/ facts etc which feed into the conceptual formation of ‘true’.

More specifically, the less the point of debate is able to be codified by empirical evidence the less likely you are to find an agreed definition, across multiple contexts [spiritual/ social etc] of what constitutes ‘true’.

c.f. (and these are v. general so don’t pick on the example, Nephorm)

[1] If I drop a rock it is true to say that it will fall because of the effect of gravity.

vs

[2] It is true to say, all killing is wrong

Perhaps the safest way to define somethign as ‘true’ is to be as narrow [and specific]in your definition, and the setting of conditions relating to the circumstances as possible, thus:

X can, where the is ABC&D, be said to be true.

[quote]iscariot wrote:
All ‘truth’ might not be relative, but you’ll be lucky to find a universal concept of what is ‘true’: at the very least you’d be dealing with different conditions for what constitutes evidence/ facts etc which feed into the conceptual formation of ‘true’.[/quote]

I appreciate the subtlety you are trying to introduce to the question. My opinion is that all truth is contained in the Truth, which is ‘the whole.’ Knowledge of the whole is impossible, and therefore perfect knowledge is also impossible.

I think we are mostly safe with sticking to truth as being that which is. And though I don’t mean to pick on your examples, the primary difficulty between the two of them is that one is qualified empirically and the other is qualified morally. One is falsifiable and one is not. So the problem is that “wrong” is poorly defined, and we would have to investigate what is or is not “wrong,” and determine its constituent parts to determine what part of killing is in wrong, or what part of wrong is in killing.

If we had knowledge of the whole, we would be able to say that killing has this set of effects, X, and that each possible instance of killing has all of these effects Y, and we would know what the Good is and whether or not killing tended to it or took us from it.

I recognize that analytical philosophers have beaten the “truth problem” to a pulp with constant redefinitions or sub-definitions, but I think most people intuitively understand that truth is simply what is.

You are certainly correct that there are a large number of opinions about how truth can be determined; at the very least we have the indeterminate dyad of reason and revelation.

I’ll try and partition this tidily…here’s hoping.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I appreciate the subtlety you are trying to introduce to the question. My opinion is that all truth is contained in the Truth, which is ‘the whole.’ Knowledge of the whole is impossible, and therefore perfect knowledge is also impossible.
[/quote]

Yeh, I guess I have to agree with that. Certainly it follows the precepts of chaos theory that I like to utilise in explaining small-scale vs wide-scale knowledge - that is, that, a system of chaos only appears chaotic until such time as all the variables are known that control its behaviour, at the point that all variables are known that system no longer appears to be chaotic

Where a system is too large or too complex for all the variables to be known/ observed/ understood we get the
various types of religious/ spiritual/ whatever world-view synthesis appearing as an attempt to place the chaotic environment in an ordered context; the joy of these types of analysis is that they can be as flexible or inflexible as the adherent wants in order to fit the desired explanation of events.

[quote]
I think we are mostly safe with sticking to truth as being that which is.[/quote]

Oohhhhh! Objective versus subjective reality!!! Them’s fighting words evil grin

Thus actually proving my initial point. (I did choose such clearly differnt ‘truths’ for a reason). The mechanisms for defining and/or determining each truth, as it occurs, is largely dependent on the type of analysis applied to it…best of luck applying a moral emphasis to gravity (the rock fell because it was more inherently good than the evil sky which held it…) or empirical ‘truth’ to spirituality…(go on God - pick up the damn rock!!! You didn’t ergo, you’re not there)…

Apologies…I find this stuff fun :slight_smile: