[quote]entheogens wrote:
haney1 wrote:
Outside of copyist errors over small things like numbers, and certain locations the message of the text is pretty much in tact.
The OT using the dead sea scrolls appears almost unchanged.
Sir, first of all, WHO decided what went into the Bible? There were many copies of the Gospels floating around. Some of them contradicting each other.
[/quote]
According to history there were lists that have been quoted and used long before the council of nicea.
for instance
Origen (185-250) is the first writer to use the name “New Testament” and to indicate a classification of its works. He divided the NT into two collections: Gospels and works of the Apostles. These he proclaimed as “divine Scriptures,” written by the evangelists under the same Spirit of the same God as in the OT. He also makes note of heretical Gospels: those of Thomas, Matthias, the 12 Apostles, Basilides, and the Gospel of the Egyptians. However, Origen does not issue any directive that these alternate Gospels be burned or thrown away; indeed, he does quote them, though with the qualifying phrase, “If anyone receives it…”
Justin Martyr, c. 150 AD, refers to “memoirs of the Apostles” and quotes them as authoritative. Allusions in his work are identifiable from Mark, Matthew, Luke, and possibly John and Revelation. Metzger notes that these works were “read interchangeably with the Old Testament prophets,” indicating their importance and authority in the eyes of Justin. (ibid., 145; see also MacD.FormCB, 163-4)
Hippolytus (170-235), mirroring developments in the East, accepts all four Gospels as Scripture; he also acknowledges as authentic 13 Pauline Epistles (not including Hebrews), Acts, 1 Peter, 1 and 2 John, and Revelation. He does quote Hebrews, though not as Scripture; other works he quotes less authoritatively, including the Shepherd of Hermas. His work may show knowledge of 2 Peter and James. [ibid., 150]
Irenaeus (130-202) quotes all of our present NT works except Philemon, 2 Peter, 3 John, and Jude - whether due to length or lack of recognition cannot be determined. He sees the Gospels quartet as fixed: the famous “four winds” quote, which many skeptics misuse, thinking it means that 4 Gospels were chosen, and not 3 or 5, because there were 4 winds; more likely, though not discernibly, Ireaneus was “simply confirming a concept that (was) well established in the churches” [Patz.MNT, 65] by means of a natural analogy. The rest of the forming canon, however, is still open. Ireneaus does identify two criteria for acceptance: 1) apostolic authority, and 2) agreement with the traditions maintained by the church.
Tertullian (converted to Christianity c. 195) made citations to every current NT book except 2 Peter, James, and 2 and 3 John - again, possibly due to their length, or perhaps due to ignorance of their existence! [Metzg.NT, 159-60]He regarded the books he quoted as being equal in stature to the OT Law and Prophets. The Book of Hebrews he accepted on the basis of authorship by Barnabas, an associate of Paul (again, note that apostolic authority plays a role in acceptance). On the other hand, he used Jude to argue for the status of Enoch as Scripture. (Important point here: It is assumed that apostolic authorship of Jude was adequate authoritative basis to decide questions of OT canon - showing a high degree of authority has been accorded to Jude!), and early in his career accepted the Shepherd of Hermas as inspired, although he later rejected it when he converted to Montanism.
Cyprian of Carthage (converted 246 AD) cites as authoritative all four Gospels, all of the Pauline Epistles (except Philemon), 1 Peter, 1 John, and Revelation. He does not cite Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude - but again, whether due to shortness or rejection, we cannot say. (ibid., 160-1)
The Muratorian Canon, by an unknown author, is usually dated to the end of the second century; attempts to date it later have been unconvincing, according to Metzger, although McDonald provides an opposite view dating it to much later that contains some persuasive elements. A very persuasive case for a fourth-century date is presented by Hahneman [Hahn.MurFrag], from whom we gain much of our material below on the subject.
Discovered by the Italian historian, archivist, and librarian Ludovico Antonio Muratori, and published in 1740, this fragment indicates books that are accepted and rejected by the church. The only books clearly missing from the text are James and Hebrews, but Hahneman suggests that we have simply lost these references from the fragment, which has a number of defects. 2 and 3 John may be missing; but that is a matter of debate: The text indicates two epistles of John as accepted, and these may be 2 and 3 John, with 1 John subsumed categorically under John’s Gospel. (Hahnemen notes that the close relationship of 2 and 3 John make it improbable that the fragment only knows of 1 and 2 John.) Only one presently non-canonical book was noted as accepted: A book of Wisdom by Solomon. Two apocalypses are mentioned, of John (Revelation) and Peter, though it is noted of the latter that “some of us are not willing that (it) should be read in church.” There are also indications in the Canon as to which books are to be rejected as heretical.
The list of Eusebius refers to all 27 of our current books. 22 of the 27 were placed in the “universally accepted” category: The four Gospels, Acts, Paul’s 13 epistles, 1 Peter, 1 John, and finally, Revelation “if it really seems proper.” The 5 remaining books were placed in a category that were “disputed, but familiar to the people of the church.” A final list set out books that were to be rejected or were heretical; curiously, Eusebius puts Revelation in this category also, saying that it should be excluded if it seems proper!
The “final” listing comes from 367 AD, at which time Athanasius of Alexandria set forth a NT canon with a listing of books identical to those we have today [Gran.FormNT, 175]. Councils at Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) confirmed this enumeration. To be sure, this was not the end of the controversy (as we shall see) - but when has the resolution of any issue among human beings ever been simple?
[quote]
I am not talking about the Old Testament but the New Testament. On top of the fact that there were MANY versions of the various Gospels circulating, there is the fact that copying of the texts was in the early days done in some cases by people barely literate.
We know for a fact, for example, that the story of Jesus going to the rescue of Mary “let he who is without sin, cast the first stone” was a very late addition and does not appear in any of the earlier texts.[/quote]
Yeah everytime I read that in my english Bible, I reminded of the fact that it and the one in john are the only ones that say that. so the reliability of the texts we have isn’t diminished.
that would be because they are all late 2nd century at best, and lack true apostolic authority.
