Does Prayer Work? Is There a God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

What reason would a perfect God have for making false statements in the Bible? Yet, by owning health insurance, you demonstrate to yourself that something in these verses is amiss. You may find yourself in conversations like this:

Norm: Does God answer your prayers?
Chris: Yes, of course. I have a strong personal relationship with God. I pray to him many times each day. Jesus hears my prayers and, through his grace and the grace of the Holy Spirit, my prayers are answered. I am blessed every day by God.

Norm: So if you prayed to Jesus for something, would he answer your prayer?

Chris: Yes. Of course. Jesus promises in the Bible that he answers prayers. We see prayers being answered constantly.

Norm: Why pay for health insurance if you can pray and God will cure you? Why do people need doctors, prescriptions and hospitals?

Chris: Sometimes it is not God’s will to answer prayers.

Norm: But in John 14:14, Jesus says, “If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” James 5:15 says, “The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well.” Why would God ignore your prayers?

Chris: God is not some Santa in the sky. He does not answer prayers like that.

Norm: Didn’t you just say that God answers prayers? In the Bible, doesn’t Jesus promise to answer prayers?

Chris: God does answer prayers. I can show you millions of examples of God answering prayers. I have 20 books on my shelf at home filled with answered prayers.

Norm: Then why do you need health insurance?

Chris: Because, sometimes, it is not God’s will to answer a prayer.

Norm: Why do you say that? “The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well” is completely unambiguous. But when you pray for a cure, in a lot of cases nothing happens. Doesn’t that mean that Jesus is lying?

Chris: No. Jesus is perfect so Jesus cannot lie. When God does not answer a prayer, it is not part of his plan.

Norm: So you go to the doctor anyway?

Chris: Yes. Of course I do.

Norm: Aren’t you defying God’s will? Aren’t you ruining God’s plan?

Chris: No. God does not intend for me to be sick.

Norm: Then why doesn’t God answer your prayers and cure you himself?

Chris: There is no way that we can understand the mysteries of our Lord.

http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god6.htm

142

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I specifically said any intercessions in this world would be so rare as to not even register. You pray for your brother out of concern.

If you’re concerned about someone, wouldn’t you want to take action to actually address his problem? If you knew that prayer would have zero effect on his problem, how is that praying out of concern?[/quote]

Catholic (and others) hospitals? Where they just might be taking action to actually address the problem? Do you think I’d be too busy actually doing the operation myself, or something? This is a really odd hang up. At the most, this topic applies to very specific denominations. The Op mentions Fundamentalist Pentecostals. And the non-believers here have adopted their theology. Weird combo.

143

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Catholic (and others) hospitals? Where they just might be taking action to actually address the problem?[/quote]

That has nothing to do with being Catholic and everything with being an hospital.

That’s the very point made by the “prayers don’t work” side: Any help given, cure found, sickness healed, etc. is always done by man. When people are sick, they might pray, but they’ll get care and cure from doctors and hospital. When their house is on fire, they call the fire department, they don’t pray for rain.

144

[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Catholic (and others) hospitals? Where they just might be taking action to actually address the problem?

That has nothing to do with being Catholic and everything with being an hospital.

That’s the very point made by the “prayers don’t work” side: Any help given, cure found, sickness healed, etc. is always done by man. When people are sick, they might pray, but they’ll get care and cure from doctors and hospital. When their house is on fire, they call the fire department, they don’t pray for rain.
[/quote]

We have hospitals AND call the fire department. You know what, we still have time for prayer. As I said earlier, prayer really is a spiritual matter. Maybe, every once in awhile (like a long, long, long while), a material/physical plea is answered if it serves some divine purpose. Otherwise we live in a physical world, subject to the same natural processes as anyone else. We get sick, die, and have household fires like anyone else. I hate getting into sectarian issues, but again, this sounds like a beef with a very specific “holy roller” type. Perhaps they specifically have been the target here all along. But the discussion sounds more like atheists accepting their theology for the sake of a general argument.

145

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Catholic (and others) hospitals? Where they just might be taking action to actually address the problem? Do you think I’d be too busy actually doing the operation myself, or something? This is a really odd hang up. At the most, this topic applies to very specific denominations. The Op mentions Fundamentalist Pentecostals. And the non-believers here have adopted their theology. Weird combo.[/quote]

I’m not sure what you’re even talking about. My point was that if you don’t believe prayer has any effect on the real world, why waste your time doing it, when instead you could actually be helping people?

146

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I hate getting into sectarian issues, but again, this sounds like a beef with a very specific “holy roller” type. [/quote]

Hardly limited to “holy rollers”, since the vast majority of Christians pray to their god, asking for help in the physical world. Are you saying you have never done this?

147

WHY WONT GOD HEAL AMPUTEES? Its such a simple question.

148

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Catholic (and others) hospitals? Where they just might be taking action to actually address the problem? Do you think I’d be too busy actually doing the operation myself, or something? This is a really odd hang up. At the most, this topic applies to very specific denominations. The Op mentions Fundamentalist Pentecostals. And the non-believers here have adopted their theology. Weird combo.

I’m not sure what you’re even talking about. My point was that if you don’t believe prayer has any effect on the real world, why waste your time doing it, when instead you could actually be helping people?
[/quote]

We do believe prayer CAN have an effect. But it’s not going to have any measurable frequency. Narrow are the gates folks. The vast, vast majority of us Christians don’t have the kind of faith that can even be seen when compared to a mustard seed.

And helping people? Are your kidding with this? We don’t do both? We’re not charitable at all? If it weren’t for Christian inspired charity, a good many populations would recieve much less, if any, help. Perhaps you should stop wasting time trying to get us to stop wasting time, get off of the computer, and go help some people.

149

[quote]Sloth wrote:
We have hospitals AND call the fire department. You know what, we still have time for prayer. As I said earlier, prayer really is a spiritual matter. Maybe, every once in awhile (like a long, long, long while), a material/physical plea is answered if it serves some divine purpose. Otherwise we live in a physical world, subject to the same natural processes as anyone else. We get sick, die, and have household fires like anyone else. I hate getting into sectarian issues, but again, this sounds like a beef with a very specific “holy roller” type. Perhaps they specifically have been the target here all along. But the discussion sounds more like atheists accepting their theology for the sake of a general argument.[/quote]

The problem remains though: the Bible does not say that prayer is only for spiritual matters; when prayer is mentioned and specifically when Jesus talks about it, he’s very clear about asking and receiving. Far from putting restrictions on it, he claims “nothing will be impossible unto you.”

You’re saying that physical manifestations are, if not impossible, at least rare in the extreme; which is nearly the opposite of what Jesus claims.

150

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I hate getting into sectarian issues, but again, this sounds like a beef with a very specific “holy roller” type.

Hardly limited to “holy rollers”, since the vast majority of Christians pray to their god, asking for help in the physical world. Are you saying you have never done this?[/quote]

Don’t start. If you’re not going to read what I’ve posted, don’t ask questions. Answered multiple times.

151

[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We have hospitals AND call the fire department. You know what, we still have time for prayer. As I said earlier, prayer really is a spiritual matter. Maybe, every once in awhile (like a long, long, long while), a material/physical plea is answered if it serves some divine purpose. Otherwise we live in a physical world, subject to the same natural processes as anyone else. We get sick, die, and have household fires like anyone else. I hate getting into sectarian issues, but again, this sounds like a beef with a very specific “holy roller” type. Perhaps they specifically have been the target here all along. But the discussion sounds more like atheists accepting their theology for the sake of a general argument.

The problem remains though: the Bible does not say that prayer is only for spiritual matters; when prayer is mentioned and specifically when Jesus talks about it, he’s very clear about asking and receiving. Far from putting restrictions on it, he claims “nothing will be impossible unto you.”

You’re saying that physical manifestations are, if not impossible, at least rare in the extreme; which is nearly the opposite of what Jesus claims.
[/quote]

With Christ nothing is impossible. Unfortunately, man falls way short.

152

Again I will ask this question because, for reasons unknown, no one wants to give me an answer. Why hasnt god ever in recorded history healed an amputee? Im guessing plenty of them have prayed for a limb back.

153

[quote]Sloth wrote:
We do believe prayer CAN have an effect. But it’s not going to have any measurable frequency.[/quote]

In other words, it is so rare as to be practically nonexistent, in which case why waste your breath? Among the millions upon millions of prayers that are offered, why even bother when you know full well they aren’t going to be answered?

I never suggested you didn’t do both. I just asked why, if you care about people, you waste your time praying when you could spend that same time doing something that actually makes a difference.

On a broader note, if none of your prayers is being answered, doesn’t that suggest to you that just maybe there isn’t anyone up there listening?

154

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We do believe prayer CAN have an effect. But it’s not going to have any measurable frequency.

In other words, it is so rare as to be practically nonexistent, in which case why waste your breath? Among the millions upon millions of prayers that are offered, why even bother when you know full well they aren’t going to be answered?

And helping people? Are your kidding with this? We don’t do both?

I never suggested you didn’t do both. I just asked why, if you care about people, you waste your time praying when you could spend that same time doing something that actually makes a difference.

On a broader note, if none of your prayers are being answered, doesn’t that suggest to you that just maybe there isn’t anyone up there listening?[/quote]

Do you discuss helping people, with others?

155

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do you discuss helping people, with others? Does it prevent you from helping? And if religion and a prayer life fosters a charitable spirit, was it a waste?[/quote]

If you can foster and exercise a charitable spirit without praying to fairy tale beings, why wouldn’t you do so and leave out the middle man?

156

[quote]Sloth wrote:
forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Catholic (and others) hospitals? Where they just might be taking action to actually address the problem? Do you think I’d be too busy actually doing the operation myself, or something? This is a really odd hang up. At the most, this topic applies to very specific denominations. The Op mentions Fundamentalist Pentecostals. And the non-believers here have adopted their theology. Weird combo.

I’m not sure what you’re even talking about. My point was that if you don’t believe prayer has any effect on the real world, why waste your time doing it, when instead you could actually be helping people?

We do believe prayer CAN have an effect. But it’s not going to have any measurable frequency. Narrow are the gates folks. The vast, vast majority of us Christians don’t have the kind of faith that can even be seen when compared to a mustard seed.

And helping people? Are your kidding with this? We don’t do both? We’re not charitable at all? If it weren’t for Christian inspired charity, a good many populations would recieve much less, if any, help. Perhaps you should stop wasting time trying to get us to stop wasting time, get off of the computer, and go help some people.[/quote]

Theres the problem. I want to believe what ive been taught but it never computes in the real world. My point about the mustard seed is that it is very very small. So that means you just have to have a small amount of faith. If youre praying in the first place, that means you have at least a little faith otherwise, you wouldnt be praying.

Ive been taught that with enough faith you can do anything, even raise dead people. If all you have to do is pray, then the next time you go to a funeral raise the deceased from the dead.

But im not even talking about supernatural events, Im just talking about everyday things that affect everyday people. So if im praying for employment and cant get it, then how am I supposed to have enough faith to raise a dead person back to life, it doesnt make sense.

157

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Do you discuss helping people, with others? Does it prevent you from helping? And if religion and a prayer life fosters a charitable spirit, was it a waste?

If you can foster and exercise a charitable spirit without praying to fairy tale beings, why wouldn’t you do so and leave out the middle man?[/quote]

Because we believe in the Christian God? I thought that was obvious…If religion and prayer deepens a man’s sense of charity, then it wasn’t a waste at all when he acts this out. Whatever he may or not have been without his faith and practices is hypothetical. What he has developed into is what is.

Now, you implied that it was a “waste” because we weren’t helping someone during a period of prayer. Is it a waste that you’re spending this time telling me I could be helpful without religion, instead of serving in a homeless shelter yourself this very minute?

158

This is hamster wheel logic:

  1. We believe in the Christian God.

  2. Why? Because the Christian God has answered our prayers, so we know he is real.

  3. How has he answered our prayers? Not through anything affecting the real world, but through making us better people.

  4. Can’t we be better people without believing in the Christian God? Yes, but we choose not to because we believe in the Christian God.

159

[quote]forlife wrote:
This is hamster wheel logic:

  1. We believe in the Christian God.

  2. Why? Because the Christian God has answered our prayers, so we know he is real.

  3. How has he answered our prayers? Not through anything affecting the real world, but through making us better people.

  4. Can’t we be better people without believing in the Christian God? Yes, but we choose not to because we believe in the Christian God.[/quote]

1-4. We? Maybe this is why you’d be a Christian if you were were to be one.

But, in no post have I ever given a testomonial to my conversion. Nor, will I. I try to tackle specific questions from time to time if there’s time to kill and I’m even interested in doing the inevitable dance. But I wouldn’t even attempt to convert, or explain the process of my own journey, on a forum.

160

You can choose not to share why you believe what you do, but I venture it is for one or more of the following reasons:

  1. Because god has performed some miracle in your life, which wouldn’t have been possible otherwise.
    See above discussion, in which when pressed, people admit their god doesn’t actually do anything measurable in the physical world. Scientific studies confirm this. Any effects of “god” are limited to the spiritual realm, which are conveniently unmeasurable and unconfirmable.

  2. Because god has spoken to your heart in a way you can’t deny.
    The human mind is capable of concocting all kinds of experiences, particularly the subconscious mind, which by definition is beyond our awareness, but still affects our perceptions and experiences. Psychology has confirmed this. More significantly, millions of people fervently believe their god has confirmed the “truth” in their hearts. This is logically impossible, since one person’s “truth” is often diametrically opposed to another person’s “truth”. It is impossible for both to be right, yet both devoutly believe their god has confirmed that they are right. Clearly, it is possible to have deep spiritual experiences confirming a particular belief, which are not in fact due to divinity.

  3. Because other factors like history or the nature of the universe prove that there is a god.
    Millions use history and the nature of the universe to prove their particular god is real, yet they have diametrically opposed beliefs about the nature of that god. Logically, it is impossible for both to be right, so once again these factors cannot reliably be used to confirm the existence of anyone’s god.

Bottom line: There is no valid reason for choosing god X over god Y or god Z. Based on the existing lack of evidence, the most honest approach is to withhold belief in any of these gods, unless real evidence actually presents itself at a later point in time.