Prayer is the same as positive thinking, it only works if you believe in it!
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(text)[/quote]
Precisely demonstrating my point, Doc. The study is trying to compare a quantitative probablity to a qualitative determination. You would need to assume that the Prayers “deserved” an affirmative answer before you could measure them against a control probability.
Example: this study starts with the assumption that out of X prayer requests for a cure, etc., we would need to see success in X at a higher rate than the ordinary statistical probability of Chance to think “Prayer works”. How could we possibily start with that assumption? A Deity deciding on granting a prayer request would do so at a qualitative level, not a quantitative “well, one out of every 50 Methodists that pray for a cure will get one”.
It is simply a fool’s errand to start with any of the necessary assumptions to actually test the validity of Prayer.
This is no apology for whether prayer works or not - my point is that it simply cannot be evaluated at all due to the nature of the assumptions needed to test it.
I honestly dont know if prayer works or not…regardless of what a study says, I need to see if it works for me personally. If it worked for someone else, then good for them and I don mean that sarcastically, but I need to see it work for me.
Its no longer good enough for me to believe in it based on what someone told me or that it worked for someone else.
wow - I’ve learned so much already . . . people who do not believe in a deity do not believe in the power of prayer while those who do believe in a deity do believe in the power of prayer . . .
The funny part is that prayer is not the power to turn the Divine into your personal wish-granting genie . . . sorry Pookie. Prayer is not about asking for stuff - it is about communicating with God and deepening your personal relationship with the Divine.
The Scriptures are very clear that if you have un-confessed sin in your life, you cannot have your prayers answered. When you find a truly spiritual person living close to the Divine and walking according to His will, you will see a person with proof of the power of prayer - so OP, if you really want to find out the truth, seek out a truly holy person and discuss this topic with them - better yet - become such a person yourself and experience it for yourself!
Just like those look at the universe and do not see the Divine and there are those who look at the universe and DO see the divine . . . those who believe in prayer’s power will point to events and see God’s hand, those who do not will look at the same event and not see God’s hand . . . this is all about your personally chosen, fundamental approach to reality. One will not convince the other, because that’s the point . . . we are all given the same evidence and have to make personal choices based on that evidence.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
(text)
Precisely demonstrating my point, Doc. The study is trying to compare a quantitative probablity to a qualitative determination. You would need to assume that the Prayers “deserved” an affirmative answer before you could measure them against a control probability.
Example: this study starts with the assumption that out of X prayer requests for a cure, etc., we would need to see success in X at a higher rate than the ordinary statistical probability of Chance to think “Prayer works”. How could we possibily start with that assumption? A Deity deciding on granting a prayer request would do so at a qualitative level, not a quantitative “well, one out of every 50 Methodists that pray for a cure will get one”.
It is simply a fool’s errand to start with any of the necessary assumptions to actually test the validity of Prayer.
This is no apology for whether prayer works or not - my point is that it simply cannot be evaluated at all due to the nature of the assumptions needed to test it.[/quote]
I knew you would get the point.
My post, offered without explanation, was a response to your use of the word “empiric.” If there is no empiric measurement of the value of prayer, can it be measured by a designed study?
I recalled this study, among a few, and it certainly provoked some thought, among which are Pat’s, who rightly insists that prayer cannot be studied or measured–it does not belong in that realm.
But this is not a test for God, but a test of the belief of the injured. It had been bruited about for years that “mental attitude,” or invisible waves, or even prayer, has benefit which is exercised through some force unknown to western science. And if something has benefit, it has value.
So these folks at the Mayo Clinic came up with this study to test, not God’s response to prayer, but the power of the spiritual and whether the mind-body folks were onto something.
The null hypothesis is not, however, as you state it, but rather that there is no difference in outcome effected by prayer as performed. At the risk of a memory lapse, the statistics are good: it would take 800 subjects to prove a 25% relative difference in outcomes with a 0.05 probability of detecting a difference that great or greater, not due to chance alone. If I remember correctly, the Type II error is about 0.10.
And now look again at the results. There was a difference detected favoring prayer, less than 25%, but it did not achieve the predetermined statistical level of significance. The null hypothesis is not rejected, and the authors concluded that there is no benefit of prayer in the Coronary Care Unit.
But there is also the chance of error; this study allows a 10% chance that prayer works, and a study of this size is mistaken.
(I do not plan to reproduce this study in foxholes or among fighter pilots.)
An anthropologist once asked a Cherokee chief about whether he believed that the tribe’s rain dance was actually effective in bringing the rain.
“Oh, of course,” replied the chief. “It has never failed to bring the rain.”
“But how does it work?” asked the anthropologist.
“Easy,” the chief said. “We just keep dancing until it rains.”
Same principle.
[quote]pat wrote:
What if none of the prayed group were praying for healing? You can’t know can you? Perhaps they were praying for understanding, or peace, or a new car. Who the hell knows?[/quote]
Dude, read the study. The prayer group consisted of believing Christians who specifically and vocally prayed for the health of the heart patients. Doing so resulted in ZERO difference, compared with the group of heart patients that were not prayed over.
In other words, you don’t believe prayer has any demonstrable effect on the real world. That’s fine, but if so why would you even bother to pray?
[quote]pat wrote:
You can measure that, but what are the controls? In this case there are no declinations between one group and another, except some people ‘said’ they prayed for them. What actually went on is unknowable and unmeasurable.[/quote]
Wrong. The prayer group was observed by the people conducting the study, to ensure they specifically and vocally prayed for the recovery of the health patients assigned to their group.
Because a) the prayer was observed by the scientists conducting the study, and b) the Christian groups didn’t even know that there was another group of heart patients that wasn’t assigned to a prayer group. It was a blind study, and the only thing they were told was that they should pray over the health of the heart patients assigned to their group.
Bingo. What do you think about the British praying for their lives during the Revolutionary War, while the Americans in turn prayed for their lives and the defeat of their enemies? Or on a lesser scale, what do you think about all the sports teams that pray for a victory over their opponents, who are offering the same prayer?
Why would someone even bother to pray for themselves or for people they care about, if as you say their god is no more likely to heal them than anyone else?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
A Deity deciding on granting a prayer request would do so at a qualitative level, not a quantitative “well, one out of every 50 Methodists that pray for a cure will get one”. [/quote]
What does that even mean? If the “god” is granting even a single prayer request, that is a measurable blip which raises the rate of healing over that which occurs by chance alone.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
those who believe in prayer’s power will point to events and see God’s hand, those who do not will look at the same event and not see God’s hand[/quote]
Attribution is irrelevant. Either prayer results in measurable effects in the real world or it does not. Unfortunately, studies to date have demonstrated zero measurable effects from being prayed over by others. Wouldn’t it be cool if it were otherwise?
You can tell people to pray for forgiveness of their sins, for enlightenment, etc. That’s fine, but most people actually believe their prayers will result in something that affects the real world. People pray all the time for health or money or success, but apparently those prayers having to do with real results all go unanswered.
[quote]pat wrote:
clip11 wrote:
pat wrote:
clip11 wrote:
My parents and grandparents are fundamentalist pentecostal christians. So as you can imagine it was drilled within my head from a early age. To me it was just a list of things I cant do or “Gods gonna get ya!” At the same time I heard God was merciful and kind and took pity on us.
Up until recently, I just accepted whatever I was told. Now that I experience life and I actually have a need to pray, it seems as if it never works. When I pray it is like im talking to a wall. Now im at the point in my life where I wouldnt be considered an atheist, but an agnostic. I want to believe, but there is nothing for me to base that belief on, except a 6000 year old book and what someone else told me. Every time I get an unanswered prayer and my grandparents tell me “What you wanted wasnt the will of God…” it just pushes me more and more away. I cant bring myself to believe in an invisible man in the sky who hasnt really done anything for me. I want to, but the proof is in the pudding.
Now my parents and granparents want to attribute everything to God…for instance, im unemployed and been searching for employment for 8 months. Im starting to realize I may not be able to find a job in which I was making what I previously made. I only made $11 a hour, which may not be alot to some, but it was good enough for me. But I might have to take a job at McDonalds flipping burgers for minimum wage or close to it.
Now the moment I get that job at McDonalds the first thing im going to hear is “Did you thank God?” and in going to be thinking WHAT THE FUCK!!! Is it a miracle that im flipping hamburgers at McDonalds??? I mean im told God is supposed to be the almighty ruler of the universe, yet the best miracle he can do for me is get me a minimum wage job at a fast food resturaunt! Oh hallelujah! I feel like speaking in tongues!
Has prayer ever worked for anyone and if so what am I doing wrong? Am I praying to the wrong God? I mean what is it?
Serious and relevant responses only!!!
Look, we just did this topic to an exhausting level. In short prayer does work. And yes you are blessed beyond you realization. Do you know how many people in the world would kill for a job at McDonald’s? That means they get to eat. First count your blessings, you are healthy, you can walk, talk, and fuck. You can see, hear, taste, feel, and smell. You have an education, water to drink and air to breath that neither of which is filthy. In short we are all very blessed. Most of the time we just lack appreciation. Go to Darfur for a week and then tell us how crappy the McDonald’s job is…You get where I am coming from?
Now if you want the philosophical exercise regarding God and his existence go here:
We beat the hell out of the topic, it was kind of tiring so I am not in the mood to start repeating the discussion just yet. I need some down time.
I understand what youre saying but comparing someone in America to someone in Darfur is comparing apples and oranges. I didnt pray to be born in the USA instead of Darfur, it just happened by chance.
I mean if im going to have to work hard BY MYSELF to make ends meet, then why should I give all the credit to an invisible man in the sky who may or may not be there? I hate that I feel this way, but I cant help it. Despite what i’ve been raised to believe I feel like im all I got down here and if I make something happen I should give credit to myself.
If i pray for something and it happens I will certainly give God credit…but that has yet to happen.
You are thinking about it two dimensionally. Most things in your life you have no control over, period. It’s either pure dumb luck that you were born in the USA or God put you here for a reason.
All you really have are some choices in life. You can either make good ones or bad ones, but really if you think about it, there aren’t that many of them. Where you live, who your parents are, what you genetic make up is, talents, etc. is completely out of your control.
So what ever you decide to give credit to for such matters is outside of yourself in any scenario.[/quote]
Oddly enough I agree with Pat on this one (and the pointlesness of trying to have a scientific proof of the effects of prayer.)
If you are spending time every day thinking positively about how to improve your life and taking actions towards that end then you are good. Whether you want to direct those thoughts towards a supreme being or focus them inswards, the result is probably going to be the same.
[quote]FrankNStang wrote:
As a Christian who has been in some fairly bad times, many self-inflicted, my experience with prayer has been that God answers prayers with OPPORTUNITIES. God doesn’t just miracle your butt into a job, or miracle your marraige back on track or miracle your kid to wake up with his head removed from his ass.
God has answered me with an opportunity to talk with my wife, a way to connect with my son, an opportunity for education to get a better job.
Just my experience. BTW, for a good faith builder, look at organic chemistry and molecular biology. That could not have happened randomly in a tidal pool by chance. That stuff was designed by intelligence.[/quote]
Yeah? I studied molecular biology and organic chemistry as part of my degree and I was more strongly atheist after than before.
[quote]FrankNStang wrote:
As a Christian who has been in some fairly bad times, many self-inflicted, my experience with prayer has been that God answers prayers with OPPORTUNITIES. God doesn’t just miracle your butt into a job, or miracle your marraige back on track or miracle your kid to wake up with his head removed from his ass.
God has answered me with an opportunity to talk with my wife, a way to connect with my son, an opportunity for education to get a better job.[/quote]
Opportunities are always around. You just expect to see them when you pray for them, so your brain recognizes them more readily. Same shit for the goofballs who think the number 23 is following them.
Considering 90% of chemists and biologists do not believe in Intelligent Design, one might wonder if you’ve missed an opportunity to actually understand chemistry and biology and the possibilities of complexity being constructed by simple laws and long timescales. That, or you’ve outsmarted all the people who study those fields for a living (genius!) while simultaneously having employment problems (genius?).
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Perhaps, but of course you’d have naysayers and such who’d claim he was never sick.
If you read the study referenced earlier, this wasn’t an issue. People were preidentified as having a heart condition, randomly assigned to a prayer or non-prayer group, and their health outcomes were tracked. Prayer made zero difference in recovery rates of the heart patients.
Prayer is about relationships with God. You can’t measure relationships, can you?
If you want to claim that the only benefits of prayer are intangible, that’s fine…but most people believe their prayers actually result in “blessings” in the real world.
Prayer does work. But God isn’t some computer program or something where you insert data and get an expected result.
As I mentioned above, it’s not necessary for “god” to cure everyone that is prayed over to notice an effect. The only thing necessary to show a “god” effect would be to demonstrate that people recovered more (even very slightly more) than would be expected by chance alone. If “prayer does work”, this should be easy to demonstrate, but the data show that prayer does not, in fact, work.[/quote]
Actually the really interesting thing in the study if you read the whole thing is that it was both double blind and open. They had four groups,
1.told that they would be prayed for and did get prayed for
2. told that they would be prayed for and didn’t
3. not told that they would be prayed for and did get prayed for
4. not told that they would be prayed for and didn’t
There was no difference in the split between being prayed for or not. But interestingly, more people in the groups that were told they would be prayed for died. The working conclusion for this was that these groups thought that they must be seriously ill if groups were praying for them and therefore lost hope.
You know I used to think atheists were just dumb and stupid, but now I understand how they think. The reason im not an atheist is because I want to believe that im not alone…whether its true or not…
[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
You can’t know can you? Perhaps they were praying for understanding, or peace, or a new car. Who the hell knows?
Read the study instead of blindly criticizing it. The people in the prayer group were from Christian churches, and they were monitored to ensure that they were in fact praying for the healing of the heart patients.
Why do you not think it should be possible to measure whether one group of heart patients recovers at a higher rate than another group?
I read the study…It’s a piece of shit. You cannot measure prayer.
How the fuck do you test God and his reaction to prayer?..That is right, you cannot. There are many things in the world and out side of it that cannot be measured. Prayer is one of them. You cannot do it, the study means absolutely nothing. If you repeat the study it will still mean nothing. [/quote]
For me, the issue with trying to test God is that if (big IF) the God of the Bible exists then he is omniscient. Therefore he knows about the test. Also he is a contrary bugger and would most likely fuck with the results of the test in order to test the faith of his believers.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
…whether its true or not…[/quote]
How does believing in something that’s not true help?
[quote]pookie wrote:
clip11 wrote:
…whether its true or not…
How does believing in something that’s not true help?[/quote]
We’re social animals. Babies die or grow slowly when they aren’t held. People in solitary confinement go nuts. Tom Hanks makes best friends with Wilson. Without relationships, we degenerate. We need them. So it does help, if it’s the only way you can avoid feeling alone.
But it’s sad so many people are stuck with that.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
For me, the issue with trying to test God is that if (big IF) the God of the Bible exists then he is omniscient. Therefore he knows about the test. Also he is a contrary bugger and would most likely fuck with the results of the test in order to test the faith of his believers.[/quote]
That makes no sense to me.
If God existed and wished to have people believe in Him, why would He thwart their attempts at finding Him? In the Bible stories, plenty of people are given incontrovertible proof of His existence. Why them and not others?
At some point, you have to look at the fact that if God exists, then He makes every effort to ensure that the universe looks exactly as it would if He didn’t exist.
You then have two possible conclusions:
a) He does exists and He also wishes to make it appear exactly as if He didn’t. A few chosen ones will be given proof of His existence, the rest must rely on their say-so.
b) There is no God.
[quote]bantamamerica wrote:
We’re social animals. Babies die or grow slowly when they aren’t held. People in solitary confinement go nuts. Tom Hanks makes best friends with Wilson. Without relationships, we degenerate. We need them. So it does help, if it’s the only way you can avoid feeling alone.
But it’s sad so many people are stuck with that.[/quote]
Most people have families, friends, etc. If having an imaginary daddy was only found in solitary confinement inmates, it’d be understandable. But most people, I assume, are not entirely alone in the world. Wouldn’t it be better to work on real, existing relationship, rather then waste time on some imaginary one?