[quote]pat wrote:
Noticeable and measurable are two different things[/quote]
How? If you notice that someone was healed from prayer, isn’t that a measurement by definition?
The difference is that people are claiming prayer works. They believe that if you pray over someone that is sick, doing so will give that person a better chance to recover than would be expected by chance alone. Else, why would you pray for them in the first place?
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Noticeable and measurable are two different things
How? If you notice that someone was healed from prayer, isn’t that a measurement by definition?
[/quote]
Perhaps, but of course you’d have naysayers and such who’d claim he was never sick. But all you are referring to is healing and health restoration. That is one aspect of prayer, but I don’t treat God like the great doctor in the sky. Prayer is about relationships with God. You can’t measure relationships, can you?
Prayer does work. But God isn’t some computer program or something where you insert data and get an expected result. If you pray 100 words and grovel enough God will heal you…That doesn’t really work. He could heal you, sure, but perhaps just accepting your situation is enough. Maybe, you need to be struggling and that’s why you are where you are, etc.
Prayer life isn’t, get sick, pray the “Our Father” and get better. Prayer is communication with God. That’s what it’s about, not dropping a list on God and then being all pissed off when he didn’t do what you wanted him to.
[quote]pat wrote:
Prayer does work.[/quote]
And amazingly, it works equally well if you address your prayers to your vacuum cleaner or to that big tree in the neighbor’s yard.
[quote]pat wrote:
Perhaps, but of course you’d have naysayers and such who’d claim he was never sick.[/quote]
If you read the study referenced earlier, this wasn’t an issue. People were preidentified as having a heart condition, randomly assigned to a prayer or non-prayer group, and their health outcomes were tracked. Prayer made zero difference in recovery rates of the heart patients.
If you want to claim that the only benefits of prayer are intangible, that’s fine…but most people believe their prayers actually result in “blessings” in the real world.
As I mentioned above, it’s not necessary for “god” to cure everyone that is prayed over to notice an effect. The only thing necessary to show a “god” effect would be to demonstrate that people recovered more (even very slightly more) than would be expected by chance alone. If “prayer does work”, this should be easy to demonstrate, but the data show that prayer does not, in fact, work.
[quote]pat wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.
I really hope this idiotic study was not paid for by tax dollars. You cannot scientifically analize the effects of prayer, period.
It’s like trying to scientifically determine if you should bake a cake, or make cup cakes.
It is not the stuff of science and hence cannot be analyzed scientifically. You can try, but you will fail, every time. [/quote]
Can you explain why this cannot be assessed (which, BTW it most certainly can be)…
jnd
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Prayer does work.
And amazingly, it works equally well if you address your prayers to your vacuum cleaner or to that big tree in the neighbor’s yard.
[/quote]
“Our apple tree who art in the neighbors yard hallowed be thy name…”
[quote]clip11 wrote:
My parents and grandparents are fundamentalist pentecostal christians, the grand ole Church of God in Christ. So as you can imagine it was drilled within my head from a early age. To me it was just a list of things I cant do or “Gods gonna get ya!” At the same time I heard God was merciful and kind and took pity on us.
Up until recently, I just accepted whatever I was told. Now that I experience life and I actually have a need to pray, it seems as if it never works. When I pray it is like im talking to a wall. Now im at the point in my life where I wouldnt be considered an atheist, but an agnostic. I want to believe, but there is nothing for me to base that belief on, except a 6000 year old book and what someone else told me. Every time I get an unanswered prayer and my grandparents tell me “What you wanted wasnt the will of God…” it just pushes me more and more away. I cant bring myself to believe in an invisible man in the sky who hasnt really done anything for me. I want to, but the proof is in the pudding.
Now my parents and granparents want to attribute everything to God…for instance, im unemployed and been searching for employment for 8 months. Im starting to realize I may not be able to find a job in which I was making what I previously made. I only made $11 a hour, which may not be alot to some, but it was good enough for me. But I might have to take a job at McDonalds flipping burgers for minimum wage or close to it.
Now the moment I get that job at McDonalds the first thing im going to hear is “Did you thank God?” and in going to be thinking WHAT THE FUCK!!! Is it a miracle that im flipping hamburgers at McDonalds??? I mean im told God is supposed to be the almighty ruler of the universe, yet the best miracle he can do for me is get me a minimum wage job at a fast food resturaunt! Oh hallelujah! I feel like speaking in tongues!
Has prayer ever worked for anyone and if so what am I doing wrong? Am I praying to the wrong God? I mean what is it?
Serious and relevant responses only!!![/quote]
God has spoken to me on 3 occasions. So subjectively, there is a God and no one knows his plan for you but Him. The best thing to do is to simply try your best and trust Him with the outcome.
I know that there are many things in the world that would seem to belie the existence of God… wars, diseases, misery, hunger, and so forth. I’ve looked for answers in religion, philosophy, science, you name it. I think we’re designed to not know the answers.
So, until God speaks to you, the best course is probably to be a ‘Doubting Thomas’ and trust that, if there is a God, he’ll be looking out for you.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Of course prayer works.
You’re just doing it wrong.
When I was a kid, there was this nice bicycle I wanted. So, as kids are wont to do, I prayed each night to God to give me that bicycle.
Days, weeks, months went by and still no bicycle.
Then, one day, Enlightenment hit me like a Mack Truck.
The next day, I went and stole the bicycle. That night, I prayed to God for forgiveness, which was immediately granted.
[/quote]
Funny
[quote]clip11 wrote:
pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Prayer does work.
And amazingly, it works equally well if you address your prayers to your vacuum cleaner or to that big tree in the neighbor’s yard.
“Our apple tree who art in the neighbors yard hallowed be thy name…”[/quote]
Well, I’ve been praying to my old Electrolux Silverado Canister vacuum (who, by now, is in a landfill somewhere) and I can say doing so has given me many opportunities I am certain I would not have had if I had not prayed.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1192-8.Links
Comment in:
Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1189-91.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2002 Jun;77(6):600.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2002 Jun;77(6):600; author reply 600-1.
Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial.
Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, Williams BA, Kenny KE, O’Fallon WM, Kopecky SL.
Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression after hospital discharge. PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient. The primary end point after 26 weeks was any of the following: death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization for cardiovascular disease, coronary revascularization, or an emergency department visit for cardiovascular disease. Patients were divided into a high-risk group based on the presence of any of 5 risk factors (age = or >70 years, diabetes mellitus, prior myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, or peripheral vascular disease) or a low-risk group (absence of risk factors) for subsequent primary events. RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.[/quote]
I have found that love is a precondition for prayer to be effective. If you truly love someone and pray intensely for that person, the prayer will be answered. It may not be the desired outcome you imagine but it will be the best result possible.
Btw, Leibniz would agree while Voltaire would not. Go figure! 
[quote]jnd wrote:
pat wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.
I really hope this idiotic study was not paid for by tax dollars. You cannot scientifically analize the effects of prayer, period.
It’s like trying to scientifically determine if you should bake a cake, or make cup cakes.
It is not the stuff of science and hence cannot be analyzed scientifically. You can try, but you will fail, every time.
Can you explain why this cannot be assessed (which, BTW it most certainly can be)…
jnd[/quote]
Because God isn’t some variable that you can measure. He’s not our slave and he isn’t here to do our bidding. No study will ever show anything. How do you measure somebodyâ??s relationship with God? Who prayed for these people and what did they pray for? How did they pray? Did they sacrifice a goat, pray a Rosary, hold hands and sing Cum by ya, Fold their hands and say please a thousand times?
Shouldnâ??t you consult God first before using his actions as the basis for a study? Ever heard the scripture passage â??You shall not put the Lord God to the testâ???
You can attempt to measure this, but it will never yield scientific results because itâ??s not science. There is nothing scientific about prayer, never has been and never will be.
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Perhaps, but of course you’d have naysayers and such who’d claim he was never sick.
If you read the study referenced earlier, this wasn’t an issue. People were preidentified as having a heart condition, randomly assigned to a prayer or non-prayer group, and their health outcomes were tracked. Prayer made zero difference in recovery rates of the heart patients.
[/quote]
The study was flawed in it’s inception. Do you know precisely what words were spoken, who spoke them, what the context of the “prayer” was and who they were praying to?
The only thing they could measure is if speaking certain words in a certain way has any affect and the person who said them. There is no way to know if the people actually prayed, what they said and who they prayed to. What if none of the prayed group were praying for healing? You can’t know can you? Perhaps they were praying for understanding, or peace, or a new car. Who the hell knows?
The study isn’t worth wiping my ass with. You cannot measure something that has no controls and basis for measure.
[/quote]
Prayer is about relationships with God. You can’t measure relationships, can you?
If you want to claim that the only benefits of prayer are intangible, that’s fine…but most people believe their prayers actually result in “blessings” in the real world.
Prayer does work. But God isn’t some computer program or something where you insert data and get an expected result.
As I mentioned above, it’s not necessary for “god” to cure everyone that is prayed over to notice an effect. The only thing necessary to show a “god” effect would be to demonstrate that people recovered more (even very slightly more) than would be expected by chance alone. If “prayer does work”, this should be easy to demonstrate, but the data show that prayer does not, in fact, work.[/quote]
It is not necessary to show a “God effect” at all. You cannot bottle and sell prayer, you cannot measure it, period.
I tell you what. Tell me how much collective gumption exists in the lower 48 and whether it has had an effect on productivity positive or negative. You do that, I’ll let you measure prayer.
Or why don’t you measure the amount of love a person has for their kids vs. their dog. Tell me how you know the effect is in fact love, and what the resultant effect is vs. the control group of unloving individuals.
This would be about the same as measuring prayer.
[quote]pat wrote:
You can’t know can you? Perhaps they were praying for understanding, or peace, or a new car. Who the hell knows?[/quote]
Read the study instead of blindly criticizing it. The people in the prayer group were from Christian churches, and they were monitored to ensure that they were in fact praying for the healing of the heart patients.
Why do you not think it should be possible to measure whether one group of heart patients recovers at a higher rate than another group?
[quote]pookie wrote:
clip11 wrote:
pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Prayer does work.
And amazingly, it works equally well if you address your prayers to your vacuum cleaner or to that big tree in the neighbor’s yard.
“Our apple tree who art in the neighbors yard hallowed be thy name…”
Well, I’ve been praying to my old Electrolux Silverado Canister vacuum (who, by now, is in a landfill somewhere) and I can say doing so has given me many opportunities I am certain I would not have had if I had not prayed.
[/quote]
Canister? Canister!!!
…Heathen!
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Canister? Canister!!!
…Heathen![/quote]
You acanisterists have no respect for the Holy.
[quote]pookie wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Canister? Canister!!!
…Heathen!
You acanisterists have no respect for the Holy.
[/quote]
Acanisteristas are up the street.
This is a site for the Upright Bagless!
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
You can’t know can you? Perhaps they were praying for understanding, or peace, or a new car. Who the hell knows?
Read the study instead of blindly criticizing it. The people in the prayer group were from Christian churches, and they were monitored to ensure that they were in fact praying for the healing of the heart patients.
Why do you not think it should be possible to measure whether one group of heart patients recovers at a higher rate than another group?[/quote]
I read the study…It’s a piece of shit. You cannot measure prayer.
How the fuck do you test God and his reaction to prayer?..That is right, you cannot. There are many things in the world and out side of it that cannot be measured. Prayer is one of them. You cannot do it, the study means absolutely nothing. If you repeat the study it will still mean nothing.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Why do you not think it should be possible to measure whether one group of heart patients recovers at a higher rate than another group?[/quote]
You can measure that, but what are the controls? In this case there are no declinations between one group and another, except some people ‘said’ they prayed for them. What actually went on is unknowable and unmeasurable.
How do you know the Christian groups in question did not pray also for those, whom they weren’t supposed to? Perhaps they did. I cannot image a Christian praying for one person, but refusing to do so for another simply to fulfill some idiotic criteria for an idiotic study. Most Christians would request an act of mercy for all who suffer the same thing.
Imagine you have two kids with the swine flu and somebody, say your ex-wife or current boy friend, comes to you with a treatment but asks you really nicely to treat one kid and not the other, what would you do? Further, how would you measure what you would do and why?
That is the crux of the issue. The study require God to not only cure or improve sick people, but exclude doing the same for others.
God doesn’t play that just like a parent would not with their own kids. If you think you can then you truly lack understanding of faith and prayer. God is not some puppet whom you can bend to your will, to think so is the ultimate in arrogance.
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Prayer does work.
And amazingly, it works equally well if you address your prayers to your vacuum cleaner or to that big tree in the neighbor’s yard.
[/quote]
Prove it.
[quote]pat wrote:
pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Prayer does work.
And amazingly, it works equally well if you address your prayers to your vacuum cleaner or to that big tree in the neighbor’s yard.
Prove it.[/quote]
Well, you can’t measure it, but if you give it a try for a month or two, you’re sure to notice it. Proving it is difficult, as it’s more of a relationship with the vacuum cleaner. How do you prove a relationship?