Does Prayer Work? Is There a God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]Buff HardBack wrote:
GrandpaButch wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote: Yeah and you just have issues.

GrandpaButch wrote: Pray tell then DEAR SISSY what are they? Name them!

Miracle

Author: Matthew G. Easton.

A true miracle is an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of a religious teacher and the truth of his message (John 2:18; Matt. 12:38).

It is an occurrence at once above nature and above man. It shows the intervention of a power that is not limited by the laws either of matter or of mind, a power interrupting the fixed laws which govern their movements, a supernatural power.

"The suspension or violation of the laws of nature involved in miracles is nothing more than is constantly taking place around us. One force counteracts another: vital force keeps the chemical laws of matter in abeyance; and muscular force can control the action of physical force. When a man raises a weight from the ground, the law of gravity is neither suspended nor violated, but counteracted by a stronger force. The same is true as to the walking of Christ on the water and the swimming of iron at the command of the prophet.

The simple and grand truth that the universe is not under the exclusive control of physical forces, but that everywhere and always there is above, separate from and superior to all else, an infinite personal will, not superceding, but directing and controlling all physical causes, acting with or without them."

God ordinarily effects his purpose through the agency of second causes; but he has the power also of effecting his purpose immediately and without the intervention of second causes, i.e., of invading the fixed order, and thus of working miracles. Thus we affirm the possibility of miracles, the possibility of a higher hand intervening to control or reverse nature’s ordinary movements.

In the New Testament these four Greek words are principally used to designate miracles:

Semeion, a �??�??�??�??�?�¢??sign�??�??�?¢??, i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38,39; 16:1, 4; Mark 8:11; Luke 11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); a token of the presence and working of God; the seal of a higher power.

Terata, �??�??�??�??�?�¢??wonders;�??�??�?�¢?? wonder-causing events; portents; producing astonishment in the beholder (Acts 2:19).

Dunameis, �??�??�??�??�?�¢??might works;�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? works of superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9); of a new and higher power.

Erga, �??�??�??�??�?�¢??works;�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? the works of Him who is �??�??�??�??�?�¢??wonderful in working�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? (John 5:20, 36).

Miracles are seals of a divine mission. The sacred writers appealed to them as proofs that they were messengers of God. Our Lord also appealed to miracles as a conclusive proof of his divine mission (John 5:20, 36; 10:25, 38). Thus, being out of the common course of nature and beyond the power of man, they are fitted to convey the impression of the presence and power of God.

Where miracles are there certainly God is. The man, therefore, who works a miracle affords thereby clear proof that he comes with the authority of God; they are his credentials that he is God’s messenger. The teacher points to these credentials, and they are a proof that he speaks with the authority of God. He boldly says, “God bears me witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles.”

The credibility of miracles is established by the evidence of the senses on the part of those who are witnesses of them, and to all others by the testimony of such witnesses. The witnesses were competent, and their testimony is trustworthy. Unbelievers, following Hume, deny that any testimony can prove a miracle, because they say miracles are impossible. We have shown that miracles are possible, and surely they can be borne witness to. Surely they are credible when we have abundant and trustworthy evidence of their occurrence. They are credible just as any facts of history well authenticated are credible.

Miracles, it is said, are contrary to experience. Of course they are contrary to our experience, but that does not prove that they were contrary to the experience of those who witnessed them. We believe a thousand facts, both of history and of science, that are contrary to our experience, but we believe them on the ground of competent testimony.

An atheist or a pantheist must, as a matter of course, deny the possibility of miracles; but to one who believes in a personal God, who in his wisdom may see fit to interfere with the ordinary processes of nature, miracles are not impossible, nor are they incredible.

Author: Matthew G. Easton.
List of miracles recorded in the Bible (partial list)
Creation of the universe, including plants, animals and humans (Genesis 1-2)
The flood (Gen. 7, 8)

SO CHECK OUT A PARTIAL LIST OF MIRACLES OF THE BIBLE,AND BEAR IN MIND THE JEWS LIVED THRU ,AND WITNESSED MOST IF NOT ALL OF THESE ,AND WE STILL HAVE THE JEWS DON’T WE! WAKE UP!

Confusion of languages (tongues) at Babel (Gen. 11:1-9)
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24)
Lot’s wife turned into a Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??pillar of saltÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?? (Gen. 19:26)
Birth of Isaac at Gerar (Gen. 21:1)
The burning bush not consumed (Ex. 3:3)
Aaron’s rod changed into a serpent (Ex. 7:10-12)
The ten plagues of Egypt (Ex. 7:20-12:30)
waters become blood
frogs
lice
flies
murrain
boils
thunder and hail
locusts
darkness
death of the first-born
Red Sea divided; Israel passes through (See: Passage of Red Sea) (Ex. 14:21-31)
Waters of Marah sweetened (Ex. 15:23-25)
Manna sent daily, except on Sabbath (Ex. 16:14-35)
Water from the rock at Rephidim (Ex. 17:5-7)
Nadab and Abihu consumed for offering �??�??�??�??�?�¢??strange fire�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? (Lev. 10:1, 2)
Some of the people consumed by fire at Taberah (Num. 11:1-3)
The earth opens and swallows up Korah and his company. (Num. 16:32-34)
Fire at Kadesh (Num. 16:35-45)
Plague at Kadesh (Num. 16:46-50)
Aaron’s rod budding at Kadesh (Num. 17:8)
Water from the rock, smitten twice by Moses, Desert of Zin (Num. 20:7-11)
The brazen serpent in the Desert of Zin (Num. 21:8, 9)
Balaam’s ass speaks (Num. 22:21-35)
The Jordan divided, so that Israel passed over dryshod near the city of Adam (Josh. 3:14-17)
The walls of Jericho fall down (Josh. 6:6-20)
The sun and moon stayed. (Josh. 10:12-14)
Hailstorm. (Josh. 10:12-14)
The strength of Samson (Judg. 14-16)
Water from a hollow place “that is in Lehi” (Judg. 15:19)
Dagon falls twice before the ark. (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Emerods on the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Men of Beth-shemesh smitten for looking into the ark (1 Sam. 6:19)
Thunderstorm causes a panic among the Philistines at Eben-ezer (1 Sam. 7:10-12)
Thunder and rain in harvest at Gilgal (1 Sam. 12:18)
Sound in the mulberry trees at Rephaim (2 Sam. 5:23-25)
Uzzah smitten for touching the ark at Perez-uzzah (2 Sam. 6:6, 7)
Jeroboam’s hand withered. (1 Kings 13:4)
Jeroboam’s new altar destroyed at Bethel (1 Kings 13:4-6
31. Widow of Zarephath’s meal and oil increased (1 Kings 17:14-16)
Widow’s son raised from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24)
Drought at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 17, 18)
Fire at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 18:19-39)
Rain at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 18:41-45)
Elijah fed by ravens (1 Kings 17, 18)
Ahaziah’s captains consumed by fire near Samaria (2 Kings 1:10-12)
Jordan divided by Elijah and Elisha near Jericho (2 Kings 2:7, 8, 14)
Elijah carried up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11)
Waters of Jericho healed by Elisha’s casting salt into them (2 Kings 2:21, 22)
Bears out of the wood destroy forty-two �??�??�??�??�?�¢??young men�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? (2 Kings 2:24)
Water provided for Jehoshaphat and the allied army (2 Kings 3:16-20)
The widow’s oil multiplied (2 Kings 4:2-7)
The Shunammite’s son given, and raised from the dead at Shunem (2 Kings 4:32-37)
The deadly pottage cured with meal at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:38-41)
A hundred men fed with twenty loaves at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:42-44)
Naaman cured of leprosy, Gehazi afflicted with it (2 Kings 5:10-27)
The iron axe-head made to swim, river Jordan (2 Kings 6:5-7)
Ben hadad’s plans discovered. Hazael’s thoughts, etc. (2 Kings 6:12)
The Syrian army smitten with blindness at Dothan (2 Kings 6:18)
The Syrian army cured of blindness at Samaria (2 Kings 6:20)
Elisha’s bones revive the dead (2 Kings 13:21)
Sennacherib’s army destroyed, Jerusalem (2 Kings 19:35)
Shadow of sun goes back ten degrees on the sun-dial of Ahaz, Jerusalem (2 Kings 20:9-11)
Uzziah struck with leprosy, Jerusalem (2 Chr. 26:16-21)
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego delivered from the fiery furnace, Babylon (Dan. 3:10-27)
Daniel saved in the lions’ den (Dan. 6:16-23)
Jonah in the fish’s belly. Safely landed (Jonah 2:1-10)
Gideon’s fleece (Judg. 6:37-40)
Miracles Recorded in the Gospels
Cure of two blind men (Matt 9:27-31)
Piece of money in the fish’s mouth (Matt 17:24-27)
The deaf and dumb man (Mark 7:31-37)
The blind man of Bethsaida (Mark 8:22-26)
Jesus passes unseen through the crowd (Luke 4:28-30)

The miraculous draught of fishes (Luke 5:4-11)
The raising of the widow’s son at Nain (Luke 7:11-18)
The woman with the spirit of infirmity (Luke 13:11-17)
The man with the dropsy (Luke 14:1-6)
The ten lepers (Luke 17:11-19)
The healing of Malchus (Luke 22:50-51)

Water made wine (John 2:1-11)
Cure of nobleman’s son, Capernaum (John 4:46-54)
Impotent man at Bethsaida cured (John 5:1-9)
Man born blind cured (John 9:1-7)

Lazarus raised from the dead (John 11:38-44)
Draught of fishes (John 21:1-14)
Syrophoenician woman’s daughter cured (Matt 15:28; Mark 7:24)

Four thousand fed (Matt 15:32; Mark 8:1)
Fig tree blasted (Matt 21:18; Mark 11:12)
Centurion’s servant healed (Matt 8:5; Luke 7:1)
Blind and dumb demoniac cured (Matt 12:22; Luke 11:14)
Demoniac cured in synagogue at Capernaum (Mark 1:23; Luke 4:33)
Peter’s wife’s mother cured (Matt 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38)
The tempest stilled (Matt 8:23; Mark 4:37; Luke 8:22)
Demoniacs of Gadara cured (Matt 8:28; Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26)
Swine rush into and drown (Mark 5:1-20)
Leper healed (Matt 8:2; Mark 1:40; Luke 5:12)
Jairus’s daughter raised (Matt 9:23; Mark 5:23; Luke 8:41)
Woman’s issue of blood cured (Matt 9:20; Mark 5:25; Luke 8:43)
Man sick of the palsy cured (Matt 9:2; Mark 2:3; Luke 5:18)
Man’s withered hand cured (Matt 12:10; Mark 3:1; Luke 6:6)
A lunatic child cured (Matt 17:14; Mark 9:14; Luke 9:37)
Two blind men cured (Matt 20:29; Mark 10:46; Luke 18:35)
Jesus walks on the sea (Matt 14:25; Mark 6:48; John 6:15)
Jesus feeds 5,000 “in a desert place” (Matt 14:15; Mark 6:30; Luke 9:10; John 6:1-14)
Many fulfilled prophecies (also see: prophets)
The conception of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:35)
Star of Bethlehem
The transfiguration (Matt 17:1-8)
The resurrection (John 21:1-14)
The ascension (Luke 2:42-51)
Peter and the healing of a the paralytic Aeneas at Lydda (Acts 9:32, 35, 38)
Miraculous ability to speak and/or understand a foreign language (tongue) previously unknown to the speaker (See: Gift of tongues)
Inspiration of Scripture by God
ALSO SEE:

Is it LOGICAL to believe that the biblical miracles really happened? Answer
If Christ’s miracles really happened, why weren’t they reported by historians? Answer
�??�??�??�??�?�¢??Miracles are not possible,�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? some claim. Is this true? Answer
CHRIST’S MIRACLES - Has science disproved the miracles associated with Jesus Christ? Answer
Isn’t the virgin birth of Jesus Christ mythological and scientifically impossible? Answer
Does the New Testament provide a reliable history of Christ’s life? Answer
Can we explain the �??�??�??�??�?�¢??long days�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? of Joshua and Hezekiah? Answer
INTERNAL HARMONY - A skeptic questions whether the Bible’s internal harmony is evidence of its Divine inspiration - He suggests that the existence of the James Bond film series disproves that argument. See our responseÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦
How can I know the Bible is TRUE? Answer
GOD’S PROTECTION - What about the Psalm 91 promises? Answer
“Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tentÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦”

Oh wow are you really going the bible route. Ok if you are going that route answer me this. Why is it that these “miracles” only occured during the time that the bible was written. When has anything even remotely close to something of that magnitude happened in even semi modern times? Why have no seas parted recently? Ya know I kinda think that israel is at the point in thier existance where a little devine intervention would be useful. I mean they have only had to fight about a dozen wars just to exist over the past 50 years. And you are comparing things that happened in YOUR book. What is I picked up a different religious book that stated something completely different happened around the same time and we all came to be through some other means. Let me guess, They are wrong and you are right.
[/quote]

In the age of google this is not hard…I plugged in the word “miracles” in google and got over 23 million hits. You can look them up and judge them on their own merits.

262

[quote]pat wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
GrandpaButch wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote: Yeah and you just have issues.

GrandpaButch wrote: Pray tell then DEAR SISSY what are they? Name them!

Miracle

Author: Matthew G. Easton.

A true miracle is an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of a religious teacher and the truth of his message (John 2:18; Matt. 12:38).

It is an occurrence at once above nature and above man. It shows the intervention of a power that is not limited by the laws either of matter or of mind, a power interrupting the fixed laws which govern their movements, a supernatural power.

"The suspension or violation of the laws of nature involved in miracles is nothing more than is constantly taking place around us. One force counteracts another: vital force keeps the chemical laws of matter in abeyance; and muscular force can control the action of physical force. When a man raises a weight from the ground, the law of gravity is neither suspended nor violated, but counteracted by a stronger force. The same is true as to the walking of Christ on the water and the swimming of iron at the command of the prophet.

The simple and grand truth that the universe is not under the exclusive control of physical forces, but that everywhere and always there is above, separate from and superior to all else, an infinite personal will, not superceding, but directing and controlling all physical causes, acting with or without them."

God ordinarily effects his purpose through the agency of second causes; but he has the power also of effecting his purpose immediately and without the intervention of second causes, i.e., of invading the fixed order, and thus of working miracles. Thus we affirm the possibility of miracles, the possibility of a higher hand intervening to control or reverse nature’s ordinary movements.

In the New Testament these four Greek words are principally used to designate miracles:

Semeion, a �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??sign�??�??�??�¢??, i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38,39; 16:1, 4; Mark 8:11; Luke 11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); a token of the presence and working of God; the seal of a higher power.

Terata, �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??wonders;�??�??�??�?�¢?? wonder-causing events; portents; producing astonishment in the beholder (Acts 2:19).

Dunameis, �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??might works;�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? works of superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9); of a new and higher power.

Erga, �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??works;�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? the works of Him who is �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??wonderful in working�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? (John 5:20, 36).

Miracles are seals of a divine mission. The sacred writers appealed to them as proofs that they were messengers of God. Our Lord also appealed to miracles as a conclusive proof of his divine mission (John 5:20, 36; 10:25, 38). Thus, being out of the common course of nature and beyond the power of man, they are fitted to convey the impression of the presence and power of God.

Where miracles are there certainly God is. The man, therefore, who works a miracle affords thereby clear proof that he comes with the authority of God; they are his credentials that he is God’s messenger. The teacher points to these credentials, and they are a proof that he speaks with the authority of God. He boldly says, “God bears me witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles.”

The credibility of miracles is established by the evidence of the senses on the part of those who are witnesses of them, and to all others by the testimony of such witnesses. The witnesses were competent, and their testimony is trustworthy. Unbelievers, following Hume, deny that any testimony can prove a miracle, because they say miracles are impossible. We have shown that miracles are possible, and surely they can be borne witness to. Surely they are credible when we have abundant and trustworthy evidence of their occurrence. They are credible just as any facts of history well authenticated are credible.

Miracles, it is said, are contrary to experience. Of course they are contrary to our experience, but that does not prove that they were contrary to the experience of those who witnessed them. We believe a thousand facts, both of history and of science, that are contrary to our experience, but we believe them on the ground of competent testimony.

An atheist or a pantheist must, as a matter of course, deny the possibility of miracles; but to one who believes in a personal God, who in his wisdom may see fit to interfere with the ordinary processes of nature, miracles are not impossible, nor are they incredible.

Author: Matthew G. Easton.
List of miracles recorded in the Bible (partial list)
Creation of the universe, including plants, animals and humans (Genesis 1-2)
The flood (Gen. 7, 8)

SO CHECK OUT A PARTIAL LIST OF MIRACLES OF THE BIBLE,AND BEAR IN MIND THE JEWS LIVED THRU ,AND WITNESSED MOST IF NOT ALL OF THESE ,AND WE STILL HAVE THE JEWS DON’T WE! WAKE UP!

Confusion of languages (tongues) at Babel (Gen. 11:1-9)
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24)
Lot’s wife turned into a Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??pillar of saltÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?? (Gen. 19:26)
Birth of Isaac at Gerar (Gen. 21:1)
The burning bush not consumed (Ex. 3:3)
Aaron’s rod changed into a serpent (Ex. 7:10-12)
The ten plagues of Egypt (Ex. 7:20-12:30)
waters become blood
frogs
lice
flies
murrain
boils
thunder and hail
locusts
darkness
death of the first-born
Red Sea divided; Israel passes through (See: Passage of Red Sea) (Ex. 14:21-31)
Waters of Marah sweetened (Ex. 15:23-25)
Manna sent daily, except on Sabbath (Ex. 16:14-35)
Water from the rock at Rephidim (Ex. 17:5-7)
Nadab and Abihu consumed for offering �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??strange fire�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? (Lev. 10:1, 2)
Some of the people consumed by fire at Taberah (Num. 11:1-3)
The earth opens and swallows up Korah and his company. (Num. 16:32-34)
Fire at Kadesh (Num. 16:35-45)
Plague at Kadesh (Num. 16:46-50)
Aaron’s rod budding at Kadesh (Num. 17:8)
Water from the rock, smitten twice by Moses, Desert of Zin (Num. 20:7-11)
The brazen serpent in the Desert of Zin (Num. 21:8, 9)
Balaam’s ass speaks (Num. 22:21-35)
The Jordan divided, so that Israel passed over dryshod near the city of Adam (Josh. 3:14-17)
The walls of Jericho fall down (Josh. 6:6-20)
The sun and moon stayed. (Josh. 10:12-14)
Hailstorm. (Josh. 10:12-14)
The strength of Samson (Judg. 14-16)
Water from a hollow place “that is in Lehi” (Judg. 15:19)
Dagon falls twice before the ark. (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Emerods on the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Men of Beth-shemesh smitten for looking into the ark (1 Sam. 6:19)
Thunderstorm causes a panic among the Philistines at Eben-ezer (1 Sam. 7:10-12)
Thunder and rain in harvest at Gilgal (1 Sam. 12:18)
Sound in the mulberry trees at Rephaim (2 Sam. 5:23-25)
Uzzah smitten for touching the ark at Perez-uzzah (2 Sam. 6:6, 7)
Jeroboam’s hand withered. (1 Kings 13:4)
Jeroboam’s new altar destroyed at Bethel (1 Kings 13:4-6
31. Widow of Zarephath’s meal and oil increased (1 Kings 17:14-16)
Widow’s son raised from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24)
Drought at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 17, 18)
Fire at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 18:19-39)
Rain at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 18:41-45)
Elijah fed by ravens (1 Kings 17, 18)
Ahaziah’s captains consumed by fire near Samaria (2 Kings 1:10-12)
Jordan divided by Elijah and Elisha near Jericho (2 Kings 2:7, 8, 14)
Elijah carried up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11)
Waters of Jericho healed by Elisha’s casting salt into them (2 Kings 2:21, 22)
Bears out of the wood destroy forty-two �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??young men�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? (2 Kings 2:24)
Water provided for Jehoshaphat and the allied army (2 Kings 3:16-20)
The widow’s oil multiplied (2 Kings 4:2-7)
The Shunammite’s son given, and raised from the dead at Shunem (2 Kings 4:32-37)
The deadly pottage cured with meal at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:38-41)
A hundred men fed with twenty loaves at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:42-44)
Naaman cured of leprosy, Gehazi afflicted with it (2 Kings 5:10-27)
The iron axe-head made to swim, river Jordan (2 Kings 6:5-7)
Ben hadad’s plans discovered. Hazael’s thoughts, etc. (2 Kings 6:12)
The Syrian army smitten with blindness at Dothan (2 Kings 6:18)
The Syrian army cured of blindness at Samaria (2 Kings 6:20)
Elisha’s bones revive the dead (2 Kings 13:21)
Sennacherib’s army destroyed, Jerusalem (2 Kings 19:35)
Shadow of sun goes back ten degrees on the sun-dial of Ahaz, Jerusalem (2 Kings 20:9-11)
Uzziah struck with leprosy, Jerusalem (2 Chr. 26:16-21)
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego delivered from the fiery furnace, Babylon (Dan. 3:10-27)
Daniel saved in the lions’ den (Dan. 6:16-23)
Jonah in the fish’s belly. Safely landed (Jonah 2:1-10)
Gideon’s fleece (Judg. 6:37-40)
Miracles Recorded in the Gospels
Cure of two blind men (Matt 9:27-31)
Piece of money in the fish’s mouth (Matt 17:24-27)
The deaf and dumb man (Mark 7:31-37)
The blind man of Bethsaida (Mark 8:22-26)
Jesus passes unseen through the crowd (Luke 4:28-30)

The miraculous draught of fishes (Luke 5:4-11)
The raising of the widow’s son at Nain (Luke 7:11-18)
The woman with the spirit of infirmity (Luke 13:11-17)
The man with the dropsy (Luke 14:1-6)
The ten lepers (Luke 17:11-19)
The healing of Malchus (Luke 22:50-51)

Water made wine (John 2:1-11)
Cure of nobleman’s son, Capernaum (John 4:46-54)
Impotent man at Bethsaida cured (John 5:1-9)
Man born blind cured (John 9:1-7)

Lazarus raised from the dead (John 11:38-44)
Draught of fishes (John 21:1-14)
Syrophoenician woman’s daughter cured (Matt 15:28; Mark 7:24)

Four thousand fed (Matt 15:32; Mark 8:1)
Fig tree blasted (Matt 21:18; Mark 11:12)
Centurion’s servant healed (Matt 8:5; Luke 7:1)
Blind and dumb demoniac cured (Matt 12:22; Luke 11:14)
Demoniac cured in synagogue at Capernaum (Mark 1:23; Luke 4:33)
Peter’s wife’s mother cured (Matt 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38)
The tempest stilled (Matt 8:23; Mark 4:37; Luke 8:22)
Demoniacs of Gadara cured (Matt 8:28; Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26)
Swine rush into and drown (Mark 5:1-20)
Leper healed (Matt 8:2; Mark 1:40; Luke 5:12)
Jairus’s daughter raised (Matt 9:23; Mark 5:23; Luke 8:41)
Woman’s issue of blood cured (Matt 9:20; Mark 5:25; Luke 8:43)
Man sick of the palsy cured (Matt 9:2; Mark 2:3; Luke 5:18)
Man’s withered hand cured (Matt 12:10; Mark 3:1; Luke 6:6)
A lunatic child cured (Matt 17:14; Mark 9:14; Luke 9:37)
Two blind men cured (Matt 20:29; Mark 10:46; Luke 18:35)
Jesus walks on the sea (Matt 14:25; Mark 6:48; John 6:15)
Jesus feeds 5,000 “in a desert place” (Matt 14:15; Mark 6:30; Luke 9:10; John 6:1-14)
Many fulfilled prophecies (also see: prophets)
The conception of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:35)
Star of Bethlehem
The transfiguration (Matt 17:1-8)
The resurrection (John 21:1-14)
The ascension (Luke 2:42-51)
Peter and the healing of a the paralytic Aeneas at Lydda (Acts 9:32, 35, 38)
Miraculous ability to speak and/or understand a foreign language (tongue) previously unknown to the speaker (See: Gift of tongues)
Inspiration of Scripture by God
ALSO SEE:

Is it LOGICAL to believe that the biblical miracles really happened? Answer
If Christ’s miracles really happened, why weren’t they reported by historians? Answer
�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??Miracles are not possible,�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? some claim. Is this true? Answer
CHRIST’S MIRACLES - Has science disproved the miracles associated with Jesus Christ? Answer
Isn’t the virgin birth of Jesus Christ mythological and scientifically impossible? Answer
Does the New Testament provide a reliable history of Christ’s life? Answer
Can we explain the �??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??long days�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢?? of Joshua and Hezekiah? Answer
INTERNAL HARMONY - A skeptic questions whether the Bible’s internal harmony is evidence of its Divine inspiration - He suggests that the existence of the James Bond film series disproves that argument. See our responseÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦
How can I know the Bible is TRUE? Answer
GOD’S PROTECTION - What about the Psalm 91 promises? Answer
“Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tentÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦”

Oh wow are you really going the bible route. Ok if you are going that route answer me this. Why is it that these “miracles” only occured during the time that the bible was written. When has anything even remotely close to something of that magnitude happened in even semi modern times? Why have no seas parted recently? Ya know I kinda think that israel is at the point in thier existance where a little devine intervention would be useful. I mean they have only had to fight about a dozen wars just to exist over the past 50 years. And you are comparing things that happened in YOUR book. What is I picked up a different religious book that stated something completely different happened around the same time and we all came to be through some other means. Let me guess, They are wrong and you are right.

In the age of google this is not hard…I plugged in the word “miracles” in google and got over 23 million hits. You can look them up and judge them on their own merits.[/quote]

You didnt even touch on the bible statement I see. What makes that book right and all other wrong?

263

Saying why haven’t we had any miracles since the Bible was written is like saying, why haven’t we had any wars in American since the Civil War history books were written. Just because you don’t see them, and conclude everything to your own power, does not mean you’re right. What is true, and what you believe is two different things.

264

[quote]pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
It’s like trying to measure how much your love affects your wife or girl friend. If you take an event and try to ascertain how much your love would alter the outcome of that event that involves wife/gf could you measure that? Of course you cannot.

This study is specifically about the health of patients who were prayed for. Much research has been done on the relative health of married women (presumably in love) vs their single peers. Seems to me you can you measure how much love alters the outcome.

How do you they were loved? What is the measuring stick for that?

There are many ways. Ask their husbands, ask their friends about their husbands, give their husbands brain scans while you show them pictures of their wives, or measure their seretonin and dopamin responses while their wife talks about the weather, ect ect. Check these methods against each other and use a huge sample size and this should be a pretty easy study to design.

Oh brother, really? Give 'em brain scans? That might work on newly weds, but love is a lot more than a good feeling. Still, can increase dopamine levels equal love? So, if you walked up to me and shook my hand and your dopamine levels happened to jump, does that mean you love me? I guess coke heads are just a bunch of lovers then because there neurotransmitter levels jump like hell when they toot. [/quote]

That’s a real perty straw man you’ve got there.

265

[quote]pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:

That is correct you are speculating based on the results of a flawed study. Your variable cannot be a subjective, moving target, who may or may not act according to your will.

The study is very well done. The only argument I’ve seen on this board that had any chance at invalidating it was that god would intentionally muck up the results because we were trying to observe him in action, or ‘testing’ him. This would invalidate the study, but it would also invalidate ALL prayers. I mean, who has ever prayed about anything, and then legitimately not checked to see if the prayer was answered?

The study uses the right words to say it was well done. But it was stupid to begin with. You cannot quantify the results of prayer, that is not what prayer is about, first. Second, the study has to necessarily, at least for the sake of the study, has to assume God exists. You could not have the study done where people were praying randomly to anything.
Third, if you are assuming that God exists, you are trying to predict the behaviour of something then that has a will, knows the plight of each person being prayed for and not being prayed for and knows you are conducting a study or at least planning to analyze results. Do you think that God is there to play along and just show that prayer is statistically significant, or would you do the right thing for each person?

So let’s make you God for a minute, actually just a dad. Let’s say you have 4 kids, and they are all sick. Further, let’s say you have medicine and a recovery plan for each kid. Now your wife and several good friends have gotten together and ask that you help two of the kids, but say nothing of the other two. Are you just going to help the ones you were asked to help? Are you going to help all 4? Or would you get pissed off, walk out and help none?
Now, measure the effects of the asking to help only the two kids.

That is tantamount to what this “study” tried to measure. God has to do the right thing, despite what people request. Sometimes the right thing may seem unpleasant to us, but it’s the right thing nonetheless.
[/quote]

First, if you cannot quantify the results of prayer, then prayer has no measurable results. If prayer has no measurable results, it doesn’t do anything.

Second, this study does not have to assume the existence of god. The study could just as easily have been about praying to Pookie’s Vacuum Cleaner or my yacht (which doesn’t exist) and the results would have been just as valid. They probably would have been the same too. I think you’re upset because the findings of this study suggest there either is no god, or that he doesn’t answer prayers. If he doesn’t answer prayers, he’s not the god Jesus told us about.

I addressed your third point in my previous post. God, if he existed, would always be aware of the entire situation with respect to any prayer. And anyone that has ever done any praying, has always checked the results. If god is going to do what he’s going to do, whether we ask him or not, and prayer doesn’t produce any quantifiable results, then praying is a waste of time.

Lastly, being a dad, who is human and has definite limitations is nothing like being god. This analogy is a red herring. That said, the effects of that request CAN be measured. It would be very easy to design this experiment. I’ll bet even money there would be a measurable effect.

266

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
If someone claims a miraculous recovery and there is not a mundane explanation and they aren’t necessarily lying then it should be taken on a case by case basis.

If someone claims a miraculous recovery that doesn’t have a mundane explanation, then their claim can be objectively confirmed and documented.

Of course, this never happens. Either people can’t back up their claims, or their “miraculous recovery” has a possible mundane explanation.

Which is why amputee restoration, or any other miracle you could think of which doesn’t have a mundane explanation, is important.[/quote]

Like someone being raised from the dead at a funeral or a million dollars appearing in my basement…

267

[quote]pat wrote:
It is completely irrelevant because a) it’s not true.[/quote]

Can you provide more content rather than just insisting over and over again that “it’s not true”? What is your logic in stating that all gods are the same? If someone prays to the god Ganesha, and has faith that Ganesha is a literal being with a curved trunk and big ears, how can you say that is identical to believing in the Christian god?

The study didn’t ask if praying for yourself had an effect. It asked if praying for others had an effect, and the answer was a clear, unequivocal NO, despite the claims of Christian theology.

268

[quote]pat wrote:
Go look them up hoss, there’s tons. Healings, bleeding hosts, miraculous springs, etc.[/quote]

I never said people don’t make up miracles, only that these miracles are never documented and replicated under controlled scientitific circumstances. It’s like the mediums who insist they can speak with the dead, yet are completely off base when you put them in a lab.

Great example, read up:

269

[quote]pat wrote:
Nope, I am saying God isn’t going to favor some folks over others because some people want him to.[/quote]

Which means that praying to god is completely useless, since god would do the exact same thing regardless of whether or not you prayed.

Contrary to your own bible, by the way, but at least you admit that praying doesn’t make a difference.

270

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Saying why haven’t we had any miracles since the Bible was written is like saying, why haven’t we had any wars in American since the Civil War history books were written. Just because you don’t see them, and conclude everything to your own power, does not mean you’re right. What is true, and what you believe is two different things.[/quote]

People can claim anything they want, but seeing the face of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich doesn’t prove divine intervention.

If prayer by Christian believers actually results in better health outcomes, this should have been observed in the cardiac patient study. Unfortunately, it wasn’t.

271

[quote]mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
It’s like trying to measure how much your love affects your wife or girl friend. If you take an event and try to ascertain how much your love would alter the outcome of that event that involves wife/gf could you measure that? Of course you cannot.

This study is specifically about the health of patients who were prayed for. Much research has been done on the relative health of married women (presumably in love) vs their single peers. Seems to me you can you measure how much love alters the outcome.

How do you they were loved? What is the measuring stick for that?

There are many ways. Ask their husbands, ask their friends about their husbands, give their husbands brain scans while you show them pictures of their wives, or measure their seretonin and dopamin responses while their wife talks about the weather, ect ect. Check these methods against each other and use a huge sample size and this should be a pretty easy study to design.

Oh brother, really? Give 'em brain scans? That might work on newly weds, but love is a lot more than a good feeling. Still, can increase dopamine levels equal love? So, if you walked up to me and shook my hand and your dopamine levels happened to jump, does that mean you love me? I guess coke heads are just a bunch of lovers then because there neurotransmitter levels jump like hell when they toot.

That’s a real perty straw man you’ve got there.
[/quote]

That’s not a strawman. I am attacking the premise that measurable neurotransmitter behavior can be link to emotion or feeling reliably. That is a huge problem for your presented scenario.

272

[quote]mbm693 wrote:

First, if you cannot quantify the results of prayer, then prayer has no measurable results. If prayer has no measurable results, it doesn’t do anything.
[/quote]

Prayer is about relationship, not about generating measurable, statistically significant results. It does things, some may be measured some not, but praying and then taking out a ruler to see if it worked is missing the whole point entirely.

[quote]
Second, this study does not have to assume the existence of god. The study could just as easily have been about praying to Pookie’s Vacuum Cleaner or my yacht (which doesn’t exist) and the results would have been just as valid. They probably would have been the same too. I think you’re upset because the findings of this study suggest there either is no god, or that he doesn’t answer prayers. If he doesn’t answer prayers, he’s not the god Jesus told us about.

I addressed your third point in my previous post. God, if he existed, would always be aware of the entire situation with respect to any prayer. And anyone that has ever done any praying, has always checked the results. If god is going to do what he’s going to do, whether we ask him or not, and prayer doesn’t produce any quantifiable results, then praying is a waste of time.

Lastly, being a dad, who is human and has definite limitations is nothing like being god. This analogy is a red herring. That said, the effects of that request CAN be measured. It would be very easy to design this experiment. I’ll bet even money there would be a measurable effect. [/quote]

I suggest you go over your logical fallacies, that was not a red herring. A red herring is an attempt to divert the argument. In no way did I do that, I merely presented an analogy to illustrate the point not deviate from it. Not being able to counter it, does not make it a logical fallacy. God is referred to as a father figure in the Judeo-Christian tradition. His interactions with humanity have been mostly paternal in nature. The point of the analogy is to show you why the “study” is bad science at best. Just like a dad would not favor a child over another, because he was asked to by others, God will not play favorites based on what people asked Him to do. ← Not a Red Herring.

273

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
It is completely irrelevant because a) it’s not true.

Can you provide more content rather than just insisting over and over again that “it’s not true”? What is your logic in stating that all gods are the same? If someone prays to the god Ganesha, and has faith that Ganesha is a literal being with a curved trunk and big ears, how can you say that is identical to believing in the Christian god?
[/quote]
Hey mbm, ^ this is what a Red Herring looks like…A clear attempt to divert the topic…I’ll answer it to stop the circular silliness.
First, the Judeo-Christian-islamic traditions have a tracable, verifiable history dating back to Abraham. Look where you want, this is historical and all three traditions worship the same God as in the book of Genesis.
Now, as being the Creator, anybody who refers to this “person” as their God are worshiping the same thing as me and as anybody else. Since most religions have this sense at the core of their beliefs, they are all worshiping the same one God, the creator, not the many little mental God’s as you claim. As a matter of fact you have a completely indefensible position, in that, you claim people make up gods to worship, but you have nothing to back this notion up. It is simply how you feel.

[quote]
What we don’t know is if the people pray themselves.

The study didn’t ask if praying for yourself had an effect. It asked if praying for others had an effect, and the answer was a clear, unequivocal NO, despite the claims of Christian theology.[/quote]

Well that further muddies the waters does it not? What then are they measuring, whether external prayers are more effective than internal prayers? or is it pitting say the prayers of people’s families and themselves against these church groups? Or is it measuring the effects of prayed for people by some christian groups vs. others who may or may not be being prayed for or praying themselves??? You don’t see the flaw in this, seriously?

274

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Nope, I am saying God isn’t going to favor some folks over others because some people want him to.

Which means that praying to god is completely useless, since god would do the exact same thing regardless of whether or not you prayed.

Contrary to your own bible, by the way, but at least you admit that praying doesn’t make a difference.[/quote]

Mbm ^ This is what a strawman looks like.

Strawman - A fallacy that occurs when someone attacks a less defensible position than the one actually being put forth. This occurs very often in politics, when one seeks to derive maximum approval for himself/herself or for a cause. Example: “Opposition to the North American Free Trade Agreement amounts to nothing but opposition to free trade.” (Someone can believe in free and open trade and yet still oppose NAFTA.)

In this example, forlife is responding to my saying that God won’t favor certain people simply because some folks want him to, by saying praying is therefore completely useless because God would do the exact samething regardless. ← You cannot draw that conclusion based on what I said.
He is not addressing the fact that I said “…God isn’t going to favor some folks over others because some people want him to.”

The question put forth really is this; will God favor some people over others because those people were prayed for by certain groups?

This flew right past him…

275

[quote]pat wrote:
First, the Judeo-Christian-islamic traditions have a tracable, verifiable history dating back to Abraham.[/quote]

I specifically asked about Ganesha vs. your god. Are they the same person or not? If not, which one (if not both) is made up?

Lol. So you’re now going to argue that Zeus, Gaia, Vishra, Thor, and Isis are all real beings?

Of course it doesn’t. If you understood basic experimental design, you would see that the study effectively controlled for variance other than 1) the effects of prayers on health outcomes and 2) knowledge of being prayed over. I’m not trying to insult you in any way, but you keep arguing points that are ridiculous to anyone that has even a basic understanding of statistics. Any observed effects must have been due to the variables being studied, and the point is that praying for others had zero effect.

276

[quote]pat wrote:
The question put forth really is this; will God favor some people over others because those people were prayed for by certain groups? [/quote]

OMG, do you not understand that this is exactly what we’ve been discussing? Are you saying that your god will favor some people over others due to being prayed over, or not? A simple yes or no answer to the question you posed above will do.

277

[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Saying why haven’t we had any miracles since the Bible was written is like saying, why haven’t we had any wars in American since the Civil War history books were written. Just because you don’t see them, and conclude everything to your own power, does not mean you’re right. What is true, and what you believe is two different things.

People can claim anything they want, but seeing the face of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich doesn’t prove divine intervention.

If prayer by Christian believers actually results in better health outcomes, this should have been observed in the cardiac patient study. Unfortunately, it wasn’t.[/quote]

There were no controls in that idiotic experiment. All you had were some patients were prayed for by external groups. That did not take into account the prayers of the patients themselves, their families and friends, other churches and prayer groups…Man if you take this junk science as fact, I got a good deal on some ocean front property in Oklahoma. Sell it cheap, I will.

278

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
The question put forth really is this; will God favor some people over others because those people were prayed for by certain groups?

OMG, do you not understand that this is exactly what we’ve been discussing? Are you saying that your god will favor some people over others due to being prayed over, or not? A simple yes or no answer to the question you posed above will do.[/quote]

Yes, clearly, but you seem quite lost. No, he will not favor because you want him to. If he favors he will do so on his own accord, not because somebody asked him to do this…Would you favor one of your kids over another because somebody wanted you to?

279

[quote]pat wrote:
There were no controls in that idiotic experiment. All you had were some patients were prayed for by external groups. That did not take into account the prayers of the patients themselves, their families and friends, other churches and prayer groups.[/quote]

Do you know what “statistical noise” is? Look it up.

The other variables you mention applied to all four experimental groups, and were statistically taken into account through being aggregated as random noise. Any effects observed over the random noise must have been due to the two variables in question, but NO EFFECTS WERE OBSERVED.

280

[quote]pat wrote:
No, he will not favor because you want him to. If he favors he will do so on his own accord, not because somebody asked him to do this.[/quote]

How is that any different from saying he will favor who he wants to favor, regardless of whether you pray for it or not?